Correct Shoulder seam placement on Indy Jackets?

[Frederick]

So I've asked the question regarding the correct shoulder seam placement on a previous thread but thought I'd start afresh.

The problem that I've found with my jackets are that because the collar to shoulder seam (running along shoulder) sits further back on most people's shoulders (and mine) [meaning it's not running along the shoulder ridge] the shoulder measurement will essentially then be a misrepresentation of how it will fit/look.
ie if a jacket had a shoulder measurement of 19.5 inches it will hang down your back and add an appearance of an extra 1/2-1 inch making the jacket a 20-20.5" shouldered jacket and having the sleeve seam hang further down the the arm.

So the problem is then... do you subtract a 1/2-1 inch in one's shoulder measurement? ie. order a 18.5-19" to get a 19.5"?

Has anyone found the same?

Here is a example of what I mean.



This screen cap shows the shoulder seam highlighted when the jacket is half zipped up (Raven Bar scene)

[CM]

I don't follow, sorry. Your jacket looks the same as Fords just a different posture.

[Frederick]

I don't follow, sorry. Your jacket looks the same as Fords just a different posture.

Hi CM. The shoulder seam sits further (more to the left if you at the pics) down on my back rather than running down the length of the shoulder. So the sleeve seam is pulled back.

[CM]

Doesn't really look like it to me. Sorry. But I'm not saying you are wrong. To me the cut of the yoke on both jackets looks identical. If the seam appears to be different it seems to me it is Ford's posture how he is wearing the jacket and the camera angle. Notice how stooped Ford is.

The shoulder measurement you mentioned has no impact on that seam, it refers to horizontal width. You would need to change the yolk vertical width.

[Indy Magnoli]

It does look like your shoulders sit a bit forward, which is something that a tailor can certainly adjust for. Maybe posting a photo more 3/4 (slightly from the front) would should what you're saying more clearly.

[Holt]

That is exactly how the shoulder seam should fall.

Be happy man! You have the quirk!

[senorjacob]

I think you're splitting hairs here. If you get a tailor to take all the measurements that are outlined on the magnoli site (and make sure to click on the little help icon next to each measurement because there are different methods and ways to measure with different terminology) then you're gonna be fine. And if the jacket needs adjusting, a good tailor can fix it.

Nice jacket btw.


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[Frederick]

That is exactly how the shoulder seam should fall.

Be happy man! You have the quirk!

I'm very happy and understand this is how it the jacket hangs and I'm just calculating for a 2nd jacket. I know that in the big scheme of things a 1/2 inch won't matter much (I mean really) but just wondered if anyone else has found the same.
This is not a dig at any vendor, I'm simply requiring as to the cut of the jacket and the appropriate shoulder measurements, all friendly questions.

Indy M, as requested, here is a pic:



I laid the jacket down flat and took the 2 measurements that might help explain it further.

1) from shoulder/sleeve seam to shoulder/sleeve seam which measures 19.5"



2) from the top of the sleeve seam to sleeve seam as it normally lays - raiders normal shoulder cut. 20"

[CM]

I still can't follow what you mean, Fred. What has the shoulder horizontal length got to do with where the seam falls on your shoulder or lower down your back?

Is this about the size of the yoke or not?

I'm intrigued - can someone else try to explain what Fred is getting at?

[Forrest For the Trees]

I think it is two separate issues, both related to the unusual fit of the hero jacket.

1. The horizontal shoulder seam sits farther back than on a normal jacket. Instead of appearing on top of your shoulder, it sits back, making it visible from behind.

2. The shoulders themselves are cut too broadly, so the seam for the arm holes appears past the edge of your shoulders.

These are two of the several strange pattern features of the hero jacket. When Nowak offered the jacket "warts and all" the fit was quite strange. I personally didn't like it. Somehow, Bill Kelso Mfg has managed to cut the pattern in a way that maintains the quirks, but still makes for a functional fit.

Anyway, Frederick, I'd say you have nothing to worry about. If you are going for a hero cut Raiders jacket, the Kelso is awesome and manages to fit well while keeping all the visual quirks of the pattern. If you don't like those quirks, you should just order a standard Indy jacket from Wested or from Magnoli, who can have a jacket made for you exactly as you want it.

[senorjacob]

Sorry if I sounded dismissive. I admire you're drive to be specific. I think I was worried I wouldn't get something I was happy with. Standing on the other side of it I'm very happy and hope you will be too with your choice.


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[Holt]

I still can't follow what you mean, Fred. What has the shoulder horizontal length got to do with where the seam falls on your shoulder or lower down your back?

Is this about the size of the yoke or not?

I'm intrigued - can someone else try to explain what Fred is getting at?

Im alittle lost myself.

I think he is in question if the should seam should sit on top of the shoulder and not on the shoulder back.

The hero jacket should fit exactly like this. Its how it sat on Ford.

For a normal fitting jacket the standard raiders jacket has the seam sitting on top of the shoulder.

[Frederick]

I think it is two separate issues, both related to the unusual fit of the hero jacket.

1. The horizontal shoulder seam sits farther back than on a normal jacket. Instead of appearing on top of your shoulder, it sits back, making it visible from behind.

2. The shoulders themselves are cut too broadly, so the seam for the arm holes appears past the edge of your shoulders.

These are two of the several strange pattern features of the hero jacket. When Nowak offered the jacket "warts and all" the fit was quite strange. I personally didn't like it. Somehow, Bill Kelso Mfg has managed to cut the pattern in a way that maintains the quirks, but still makes for a functional fit.

Anyway, Frederick, I'd say you have nothing to worry about. If you are going for a hero cut Raiders jacket, the Kelso is awesome and manages to fit well while keeping all the visual quirks of the pattern. If you don't like those quirks, you should just order a standard Indy jacket from Wested or from Magnoli, who can have a jacket made for you exactly as you want it.

Thanks FftT, very good advice as usual! I totally get the Hero jacket has it's quirks and totally accepting of that and love it for those reasons, my apologies if I'm making an anthill of a molehill here, or is it the other way around? I'm looking at wanting a smaller shoulder measurement than 'normally' required for size 38 so what I will do is to the best of my ability give my required measurement (keeping in mind the shoulder quirk and that it 'might' add that 1/2 inch) and all shall be fine.

I still can't follow what you mean, Fred. What has the shoulder horizontal length got to do with where the seam falls on your shoulder or lower down your back?

Is this about the size of the yoke or not?

I'm intrigued - can someone else try to explain what Fred is getting at?

Im alittle lost myself.

I think he is in question if the should seam should sit on top of the shoulder and not on the shoulder back.

The hero jacket should fit exactly like this. Its how it sat on Ford.

For a normal fitting jacket the standard raiders jacket has the seam sitting on top of the shoulder.

Hi Holt/CM
Yes, I'm trying to order a more 'fitting' jacket (with the sleeve seam overhang as in the Raven bar scene when half zipped) so I'm just tossing up a few measurements thus I'm taking in consideration my findings before submitting.
That one screencap does have the shoulder seam running more vertical towards the top of his shoulder (granted that perhaps HF is hunched) but totally in agreeance that the shoulder seam/yoke hangs back.

[xmasters]

If you try and reduce the shoulder overhang you run the risk of changing one of the defining looks of the Hero jacket. I agree the shoulder over hang on Ford is quite subtle, almost to the point of undetectable, but if you get it wrong though you'll have a boxy looking jacket which ain't what the hero looks like.

Personally I would stick to giving the correct measurements the vendor wants and trust them to make the jacket. If you start trying to alter the pattern with odd measurements to try 'improve' it you'll probably run into some trouble somewhere.

I'm more inclined to think the difference is simply that your arm and shouder is not the same as Harrison Fords arm and shoulder. If you put the same jacket on two different people it may not fall extacly the same way, also consider the way a different leather impacts the way a jacket drapes.

[CM]

Ok. I think I'm with you now. Yes, the Raiders jacket has shoulders that are too wide. Take my case. The shoulders on my size Gibson and Barnes 42 are 21 inches across. In a properly fitted jacket my shoulder width would be around 18.5 inches. That's a massive difference.

A period jacket form the 1930's Sears or Monarch leather jacket would be fitted and have narrow shoulders. The Raiders jackets fits wide like a 1980's jacket. So it is key to the movie look. I actually really dislike having a jacket with shoulder seams that hang off the shoulder.

Magnoli produced a proper trim fit Indy Jacket it looks great but it doesn't look much like the movie jacket.

[Indy Magnoli]

Magnoli produced a proper trim fit Indy Jacket it looks great but it doesn't look much like the movie jacket.

Does a correctly placed shoulder seam really ruin the look that much for you?



Give me a proper fitting jacket any day.

[senorjacob]

I agree.


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[Forrest For the Trees]

I think it really depends on what you are going for. If someone is even considering purchasing a Kelso Relic Hunter, I would think Screen Accuracy (weird fit/pattern included) is the goal. Otherwise, if die-hard SA is not a concern, than by all means order a jacket cut properly for a great fit from a different vendor.

[senorjacob]

The problem with screen accuracy is that there's always going to be a missing element: the person wearing the jacket. None of us is Harrison Ford.


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[whipwarrior]

... except Harrison Ford!

[Indy Magnoli]

Even being Harrison Ford doesn't help sometimes... this looks like a costume to me:

[xmasters]

I don't think it's neccesarily a dealbreaker, but it is a pattern choice. Westeds standard OTR pattern is designed not to have one. The Hero does have one.



Wested Hero Shoulder overhang:


Standard Wested OTR Raiders jacket. No overhang, boxy appearance



In theory the more conventional fit is the more comfortable fitting jacket, which is probably true by a small marginal, but the Hero jacket is not uncomfortable IMO.

[CM]

No Mr Magnolia the trim fit doesn't ruin the look. I prefer it. But you know how some people are about accuracy.

You're right about the Indy 4 costume it looks off and the shoulders are look wider than ever.

[xmasters]

The Indy IV 'costume' bar the hat is not great, and to be fair that is the worst picture that shows it. The Indy IV jacket was made from cowhide and for the first time includes inside leather zip facings, which add to the stiffness look of the jacket, losing the effect [ the previous jackets had of flaring open and wavered really easily. Yet another defining look of the Indy jacket IMO.

The irony is that the Indy IV jacket is actually constructed as a more real world jacket, made of a tougher leather. Double stitching on the arms and as I mentioned leather facings, all of which make it much tougher jacket for adventuring, vs the cool looking but flimsy original trilogy style jackets.

[Frederick]

I don't think it's neccesarily a dealbreaker, but it is a pattern choice. Westeds standard OTR pattern is designed not to have one. The Hero does have one.

Wested Hero Shoulder overhang:


Standard Wested OTR Raiders jacket. No overhang, boxy appearance



In theory the more conventional fit is the more comfortable fitting jacket, which is probably true by a small marginal, but the Hero jacket is not uncomfortable IMO.

Great examples for me, shoulder wise I would prefer somewhere in between.
See I've always felt the hero to have too much overhang, a jacket falls differently when unzipped on everyone but when zipped up it gives a truer indication of how the sleeves hang, unfortunately the only time we see it zipped ever is in the raven bar scene (even if it is just half way).

I believe a lot of the boxiness comes from the way a jacket drapes as well, a stiffer leather will be boxy but a thinner leather will drape and run down your shoulder will not have this.



Anyways, potato potatoe right?

[CM]

The Indy IV 'costume' bar the hat is not great, and to be fair that is the worst picture that shows it. The Indy IV jacket was made from cowhide and for the first time includes inside leather zip facings, which add to the stiffness look of the jacket, losing the effect [ the previous jackets had of flaring open and wavered really easily. Yet another defining look of the Indy jacket IMO.

The irony is that the Indy IV jacket is actually constructed as a more real world jacket, made of a tougher leather. Double stitching on the arms and as I mentioned leather facings, all of which make it much tougher jacket for adventuring, vs the cool looking but flimsy original trilogy style jackets.

The real issue is that the jacket just fits Harrison very badly, emphasising his age. In my view the materials and facing are incidental. It didn't need to completely match the Raiders jacket to work, it just needed to fit.

[xmasters]

The real issue is that the jacket just fits Harrison very badly, emphasising his age. In my view the materials and facing are incidental. It didn't need to completely match the Raiders jacket to work, it just needed to fit.

The problem is the jacket wasn't broken in and properly aged like the previous movie jackets. That should be the responsibility of the costume designer on set. In that picture shown the jacket looks like it's just been lifted new off the peg and onto Fords shoulders.

The technical things about the CS jacket that I mentioned are facts that contribute to the way the jacket looks in the movie. That said, there are moments in the film where it looks and behaves passably, above is just a picture that makes the jacket look particularly flat and stiff. However if the CS jacket had been made from Lamb/Calf skin as per the previous films, that would have improved the look no end IMO.

[xmasters]

Great examples for me, shoulder wise I would prefer somewhere in between.
See I've always felt the hero to have too much overhang, a jacket falls differently when unzipped on everyone but when zipped up it gives a truer indication of how the sleeves hang, unfortunately the only time we see it zipped ever is in the raven bar scene (even if it is just half way).

I believe a lot of the boxiness comes from the way a jacket drapes as well, a stiffer leather will be boxy but a thinner leather will drape and run down your shoulder will not have this.

From what I have heard, I think the Relic Hunter does have slightly less overhang seam placement than the Wested Hero, but I don't have a relic hunter to confirm. Just what others have said. I think the important thing (if the overhang matters) is a rounded shoulder look. Which is more evident in some scenes and stills from the film than others.

[CM]

The real issue is that the jacket just fits Harrison very badly, emphasising his age. In my view the materials and facing are incidental. It didn't need to completely match the Raiders jacket to work, it just needed to fit.

The problem is the jacket wasn't broken in and properly aged like the previous movie jackets. That should be the responsibility of the costume designer on set. In that picture shown the jacket looks like it's just been lifted new off the peg and onto Fords shoulders.

No amount of distressing would have helped that ill-fitting garment, unless you include shrinking it after washing.

But the predistressed look of the leather didn't help. It looked fake as well as oversized.

[xmasters]

No amount of distressing would have helped that ill-fitting garment, unless you include shrinking it after washing.

But the predistressed look of the leather didn't help. It looked fake as well as oversized.

The sizing was based on The Last Crusade jacket. The leather choice and other aspects I mentioned are the reasons the jacket looks the way it does.

[CM]

Hey man, I'm not gonna keep arguing my point. You have a different view. It's the distressing. I hear you. What's great about this hobby is that we celebrate a range of views and these days there are no jacket wars.

[Michaelson]

Keep in mind, the CS jacket was a heavy cowhide and specifically requested by the producer to be heavier and more water resistant than past jackets due to all the water scenes to be shot in the film.

If you've owned one of these, or ANY heavy cowhide, you KNOW how hard it is for those to take any kind of 'shape' on a persons body, regardless of pattern.

Regard! Michaelson

[Satipo]

This side shot has always struck me too because it makes the top shoulder seam appear to be cut according to a curved pattern (curving towards the centre of the top of the arm) rather than straight.

[Captain D]

Off topic - I have to admit, Indy Magnoli's pic looks exactly like American Picker, Mike Wolfe from the History Channel, lol. Unbelievable doppelganger!

[Marv]

I agree with cowhide, can be very stiff & heavy even more so when wet, takes a lot of breaking in and sometimes with not so many results for the weathered look.

Here are a couple of photos of my custom Raiders in dark novapelle hide, the jacket is from around 2007 and has had a couple of hot water treatements in an attempt to bring out the grain and drape of the hide.

When the jacket was throughly soaked, it became extremely heavy and took a long time to dry out even when wearing wet......





The jacket has the leather facings also which tends to make the jacket stiff at the zipper and a bit boxy in look, however the jacket is a size too big for me at a 46" so the chest is a bit on the loose side and I had to pull in the side straps quite a bit to reduce the boxy appearence around the waist area.

I agree, Ford's CS outfit does look like a costume so I don't know how much input he had into this or was just given the wardrobe by the costume dept saying there you go, wear that.

[CM]

Ford seems to trust in the judgement of Bernie Pollack who supervised the jacket tender process and has done most of Ford's costumes for the past 15 years. I'm not keen on Pollack's stye choices.

I find it interesting that the CS jacket does drape well, lots of soft folds of leather and yet it still looks like a costume.

[Mark Raats]

Ford seems to trust in the judgement of Bernie Pollack who supervised the jacket tender process and has done most of Ford's costumes for the past 15 years. I'm not keen on Pollack's stye choices.

I find it interesting that the CS jacket does drape well, lots of soft folds of leather and yet it still looks like a costume.

The LC jackets are not as heavy to the touch as the CS jackets are and the thing that struck me was that even after nearly 10 years, the Skull jackets still sit rigidly on the hangers while the LC jackets seem to hang with a more natural drape. The weathering on the LC jackets is appalling and even Deborah Nadoolman - on a trip to the archives a couple of months back - said that they were an embarrassment. They still show the scuff marks of heavy sandpaper and totally contrived distressing unlike the jackets from both Raiders and TOD which show a combination of artificial weathering and natural wear and tear.

Regards,
MARK

[CM]

Ford seems to trust in the judgement of Bernie Pollack who supervised the jacket tender process and has done most of Ford's costumes for the past 15 years. I'm not keen on Pollack's stye choices.

I find it interesting that the CS jacket does drape well, lots of soft folds of leather and yet it still looks like a costume.

The LC jackets are not as heavy to the touch as the CS jackets are and the thing that struck me was that even after nearly 10 years, the Skull jackets still sit rigidly on the hangers while the LC jackets seem to hang with a more natural drape. The weathering on the LC jackets is appalling and even Deborah Nadoolman - on a trip to the archives a couple of months back - said that they were an embarrassment. They still show the scuff marks of heavy sandpaper and totally contrived distressing unlike the jackets from both Raiders and TOD which show a combination of artificial weathering and natural wear and tear.

Regards,
MARK

I've always said much the same thing about the LC fake wear, Mark. But the LC jacket with its phoney distressing looks firmer than the CS jacket to me. It doesn't fold or drape as well. The lightness of the hide is incidental. In fact the LC jacket is famously stiffer, thicker and heavier looking than the others and for years jacket fans speculated that the LC jacket was actually horse hide or cowhide because of it's stiff appearance.

I think Harry looks dreadful in the CS jacket because he looks pretty mature (old) and the oversized cut doesn't work for him as an older man. I also think the CS jacket has crazy long sleeves. And finally the distressed hide just looks fake and wrong. Almost as bad as the LC distressing.

By the way, Deborah Nadoolman in her famous YouTube tour of her costumes in that exhibition with Adam Savage, believes that the jacket on display is a Raiders jacket. She's wrong but you see she's not as invested in this as the nutty fans.

[xmasters]

Apparently Harrison Ford requested the CS jacket be made of cowhide.

[CM]

Apparently Harrison Ford requested the CS jacket be made of cowhide.

Source? Maybe Bernie suggested it and Ford said "Cool, I want it."

According to several posts on jacket history on COW Ford is celebrated for actually preferring the look of the Archive jacket ( either a Cooper or one of Lee's) over the actual Raiders or Temple jacket when trying jackets on in the archive. In other words, Indy picked the copy over the original. Kind of makes a mockery of our screen accuracy crusades.

[Tibor]

Not really... we want what we saw on screen, not what Harrison likes.

Regardless of Nadoolman's memory, she created one of the most iconic looks in movie history. A true artist with some remarkable vision.

[xmasters]

Apparently Harrison Ford requested the CS jacket be made of cowhide.

Source? Maybe Bernie suggested it and Ford said "Cool, I want it."

Tony Nowak. Ford tried on both his old Raiders and Last Crusade, both still fit but he prefered the LC jacket fit. So the new jacket was based on that and Ford requested it be made from Cowhide. Tony probably showed Ford leather samples at the fitting and Ford picked what he wanted from there.

[CM]

Masters there are various versions of this story. Maybe Nowak said this but the way Peter at Wested told it, when the jacket was put out to tender cowhide was a requirement Bernie asked for. The jacket Ford chose at Lucasfilm was actually the celebrated 'archive jacket' as reported in most of the accounts you read. This was a fan made copy not even film used.

[CM]

Not really... we want what we saw on screen, not what Harrison likes.

Regardless of Nadoolman's memory, she created one of the most iconic looks in movie history. A true artist with some remarkable vision.

I personally think Ford's choice makes a nice mockery of screen accuracy. In a fun way. And I don't have any evidence to festoon Nadoolman with such superlatives but she did play a role along with others in developing a jacket I have loved.

[xmasters]

Maybe Nowak said this but the way Peter at Wested told it, when the jacket was put out to tender cowhide was a requirement Bernie asked for.

Because Ford wanted Cowhide. Ford is the star, he doesn't ring up people personally to order his costume. The costume designer is in charge of organising things. Makes sense right.

I presume the archive jacket was a replica of the Last Crusade jacket, directly copied from the original. So it was made for Harrison Fords sizing in the first place.

[CM]

No, I don't think it makes sense, but very little about this jacket's history does. Having seen Ford interviewed and read a lot about him it makes as much sense him hiring a costume guy to do all his film gear precisely because Ford doesn't want to worry about the details. The LC jacket was based on the archive jacket too. I don't think Ford gave a toss about the hide but it's a nice story. We'll never know.

Note, the archive jacket, by Indy fan and COW hero, Lee Keppler was made in the mid 1980's by Flightsuits (later Gibson and Barnes) out of horsehide which may have given movie folk the idea of a thicker, heavier jacket. So rather than Ford saying "I want cow" he could have said "I like the way this one fits best, copy it." Assumptions were then made about the hide being cow. Any number of combinations of this story might have been possible.