Penman Raider.... Beaver vs. Rabbit

[Dr. Jones, Jr.]

Hi all,

I am probably going to order a ROTLA from Penman hats soon and I am curious about the difference in durability, feel, and look between the rabbit and beaver. I know that objectively beaver deals better with the elements and I've seen John's video of the beaver hat being stomped on. My question is if anybody has owned both a beaver and rabbit hat and could possibly provide a list of differences or pics. I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks so much!

[Cajunkraut]

Beaver's the way to go if it's in the budget. It's all about the increased long-term durability and resistance to tapering.

Beaver hats can be made to mimic the "flop" of rabbit if that's even a concern.

[Chewbacca Jones]

Well, setting aside the variations from one manufacturer to another, the main thing I notice is that beaver tends to feel denser. But a good pouncing job on good rabbit felt can get a nice finish. I also find that, one really cold and windy days, beaver is a better insulator. In warmer weather, rabbit seems to breathe better.
That's my experience, anyway. You should talk to John. He'll give you a very honest answer.

[DanielP]

I have a beaver hat of his and its extremely soft, malleable, and dense. Its been fine in light rain and has kept its shape for the past 2 years I've had it. I have a rabbit/beaver blend and a rabbit Delk Adventurebilt. By comparison, those are similarly soft felts but not as soft as the beaver and I think it comes down to the pouncing. But I have read that the beaver will simply out live the rabbit in longevity if both are taken care of. The beaver could possible last a life time. This is apparently do to the unique nature of the beaver felt. I have read people having the akubras (hare) for 25 years and are still just fine. The only issue is rabbit is more prone to tapering and shrinkage than beaver from moisture. But that can mostly be fixed with a relock.

[Chewbacca Jones]

I have to agree with DanielP about keeping shape. My rabbit hats show change or loss of shape much quicker than the beaver felts. So, lower maintenance costs on beaver. I think in all my years of hat wearing, I've only needed to get one beaver felt hat reblocked due to shrinking, and I think that was just a fluke issue with the felt, which can happen with any hat. Didn't cost me a penny to get fixed.

[Glenville86]

If cost is no option, recommend beaver. I also have a few beaver/rabbit mix ones that have held up very well in all weather.

[WConly]

John's beaver hats are truly superb and you cannot go wrong with one. Not that the rabbit's are faulty -- as they are not, but the beaver stands the true test of 'time-worn-worthiness'. Just my two cents here ! Worth every penny! And, in the long run -- it will seem like 'only pennies' spent! W>

[Ridgerunner58]

Hi all,

I am probably going to order a ROTLA from Penman hats soon and I am curious about the difference in durability, feel, and look between the rabbit and beaver. I know that objectively beaver deals better with the elements and I've seen John's video of the beaver hat being stomped on. My question is if anybody has owned both a beaver and rabbit hat and could possibly provide a list of differences or pics. I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks so much!

As someone who has both I would just echo what others have said, and add that you really have to have them in your hands to understand the difference. Photos just won't tell you anything about the qualitative difference between the two felts. It comes down to preference and that can change from one day to the next.

Hence I have more than one.

[zaynecarrick]

I have a Raiders AB Beaver hat and it's survived a lot of punishment, including being run over by the Indy ride car at Disneyland. I also own a CS HJ rabbit and Akubra FedIV grey rabbit but I just like the feel of the beaver hat more. You can guess which one I take outside more!

[Jeremiah]

Beaver is nice. But....let's not discount the vintage felts which were all mainly rabbit.
I own about 17 hats from the 40s-50s. All are rabbit, nutria or possibly a little rabbit/beaver blend but don't say it. Now it's true those felts were different and the method used back in the day a bit different as still we can't fully replicate them.

However, I would never ever buy a modern rabbit hat again. I had a very bad experience with one and it soured me for life on it but I absolutely love my vintage rabbit hats so it's not rabbit that I am soured on. Though my Akubra down under uses hare or a different felt which has held up great. (But that's just my story and I do really feel I had a bad hat body).

But my AB from Delk in beaver and my penman raiders in beaver are both sturdy hats and I can stomp them and they hold their bash well.

That said I can hardly tell a difference in feel from my ABL and penman raiders, the former being rabbit and latter beaver. John does a great job pouncing so both have a nice hand.

[Illinois James]

I really think the main difference between vintage and modern hats is in the finishing methods. Many good and bad felters are gone. And many bad hats were made in the past.

I like vintage hats. They're beautiful but I don't own any. I'm just not interested in wearing and possibly wrecking one, with the stuff I get into sometimes! The vintage hats you see today are usually only the good ones that survived. A survivor hat seen today either was barely worn, or well cared for and likely reblocked and maintained. The felt is stabilized (I've seen the term, 'died') and generally will not taper anymore.

I've had Akubras of both grades of their felt shrink. None were ever soaked. It just happened over time.

I'd like a shot at a nutria hat if one ever came up in my size!

I have a rabbit in Sahara from John. It's great but I only wear it in fair weather. It's a light color and I don't want to get it dirty. But he and Steve take extra steps to stabilize their felt.

I'll echo most people here and endorse John's beaver hats.

JMOYMMV!

[Jeremiah]

I have some vintage hats that still look pristine and fit the bill for seldom worn.
Others I own, are beaters and still going strong. They have been worn to death and still have good shape though need a dusting off. I do agree on the finishing part.

[LouisiannaJames26]

I have a Portugal Beaver Penman CS hat coming for me around june or july, im so excited, its the most expensive penman felt indy fedora equivalent to the ABD fedora, and plus its my first time beaver and penman hat i will ever own im so excited

Yeah for this thread rabbit is good for screen accuracy, but tapers too quick especially when worn in rain, but for beaver its durable, and when it beaten and worn in the sun for months or weeks, it will develop a good screen accuracy look

[Illinois James]

A rabbit/hare hat can be made to be very taper/shrink resistant. John and Steve have their way of doing this, (I suppose most hatters have their methods) and after a reblock or two, generally they basically don't taper anymore. But it also depends on the batch of felt, I think, too, meaning you might not get the best raw body to begin with.

And a beaver hat can definitely taper and shrink as well. Just not nearly as likely to happen.

I think I've seen our hatters here mention that ALL hats will shrink to some degree, whether you notice it or not.

I hear many good things about the Portugal made felt. I've never handled any, though.

I'd love to see that Portugal Penman when it arrives!!

[LouisiannaJames26]

A rabbit/hare hat can be made to be very taper/shrink resistant. John and Steve have their way of doing this, (I suppose most hatters have their methods) and after a reblock or two, generally they basically don't taper anymore. But it also depends on the batch of felt, I think, too, meaning you might not get the best raw body to begin with.

And a beaver hat can definitely taper and shrink as well. Just not nearly as likely to happen.

I think I've seen our hatters here mention that ALL hats will shrink to some degree, whether you notice it or not.

I hear many good things about the Portugal made felt. I've never handled any, though.

I'd love to see that Portugal Penman when it arrives!!

Can't wait, hopefully its resembles the ABD since its hard to contact Marc Kitter, tried to email him but won't reply back, not sure what the situation is over there. I hope hes doing ok, same to Steve as well

[Crazyc2314]

I was fixing to order a penman crusader was just wondering the difference between rabbit and beaver besides keeping shape. I wondering if the beaver is soft and flexible like the rabbit

[WConly]

I was fixing to order a penman crusader was just wondering the difference between rabbit and beaver besides keeping shape. I wondering if the beaver is soft and flexible like the rabbit

I own one of John's 'crusader' hats in beaver and the felt is perfect to the touch and to the wear -- not stiff, but not too soft.... perfect blend and very durable. In fact it was my 'hat of the day' for my duties of the day-today, if you will. You won't be disappointed with the 'beaver' crusade -- or for that matter any of John's hats, regardless of style choices. Just my two cents. Hope this helps. W>

[Chewbacca Jones]

I was fixing to order a penman crusader was just wondering the difference between rabbit and beaver besides keeping shape. I wondering if the beaver is soft and flexible like the rabbit

In the hands of a craftsman who knows what they are doing; yes. And Penman qualifies.