Dimensionally cut brim on Raiders hat...

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I'm sure this topic has been covered at some point but who knows or has a good idea of what the difference was in the dimensional brim cut on the Hero fedora? Is it 1/8" or 1/4"???

[backstagejack]

Size: 7 ¼ (size 58 European) (Ford's head size)
Crown: 5 ½ (5.5) inches
Brim (front & back): 2 ¾ (2.75) inches
Brim (sides): 2 5/8 (2.625) inches
Ribbon: 1 ½ (1.5) inches (39mm)

This is from indygear.com. I'm sure this is the hero fedora based on years of research..... but the dimensions probably changed depending on who was doing what and wearing what. It's also highly likely it was different in one movie to the other again... depending on which scene as well.

Also, has anyone ever handled the "hero fedora"? From which movie?

Searching for this fedora probably requires a degree in archaeology

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Since we now know the ribbon was actually 38mm , it makes me wonder how accurate the other specs are.

[backstagejack]

Since we now know the ribbon was actually 38mm , it makes me wonder how accurate the other specs are.

We do? Everything I've seen, even from Keppler, Garrison, Penman, Adventurebuilt, Steele and Jones (a hair width smaller than 39mm) has been 39mm I thought. This is the first I've heard of it being 38mm.

Even a quick search of the forum seems to confirm 39mm (not to mention the indygear main website and the fedora sticky)

Well, Mr. Swales was extremely un-consistent about the measurements on the original Raiders Fedora. In one letter he claimed it to be 6" open crown, in the next it was only 5 1/2".... same with the brim... the only consistence in his story was the 39mm ribbon...

Now, since 39mm ribbon doesn't really exist, everybody - including myself - thought that Mr. Grumpy had mixed up the 39mm with 38mm (which is a common width for grosgrain ribbon). So we were using 38mm / 1 1/2" ribbon and discussing, if it shouldn't be a 1 3/4" or 1 5/8" ribbon instead, as something just didn't look right with that 1 1/2".

So, when I got the sample [39mm] I could see that the color is PERFECT. But when I received the actual ribbon and whiped it around the crown of one of my hats, I could immidately see, that this extra mm REALLY did the difference, if you're shoting for a screen accurate replica. It jumps out on ya. - Marc

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... hilit=39mm


I'm a little confused though not a fedora expert so I'm just curious.

[Jeremiah]

Yeah. Where are you getting 38 from?

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The ribbon I just got from David is 38 mm plus Penman and Diego discuss it here: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63990" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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I should point out that I have an Advintage fedora with a 39 mm/1.5" ribbon and it just seems a little too wide imo. However when I changed the ribbon to Garrison's it seemed to my eye to be the correct width for the Raiders hat.

[backstagejack]

The ribbon I just got from David is 38 mm plus Penman and Diego discuss it here: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63990" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's strange that it is, unless new information has come to light (paraphrasing TBL)

That thread above doesn't confirm that it's a 38mm. It even states the Diego's ribbon is just a hair smaller than 39mm. In fact Penman specifically makes a fact to point out that the main website says 39mm.

It also confirms that AB is 39mm which according to the thread I posted above, AB (Marc) thinks that 39mm is THE size.

Also,

I'm sorry for the late reply.
Our ribbon is "almost" (a hair less) 39 mm width.- Diego

If 38mm is right, and according to Marc's original assumption that 39 doesn't "exist" (before he found 39mm) then why would Steele and Jones go to such great lengths to actually have an almost 39mm wide ribbon?

Also, in this thread both Penman and Garrison confirm it's 39mm......

BendingOak wrote:
David, Question for you. The ribbon is 39 mm and that = to 1.5354331. A tad more than a 1 1/2 ribbon. Would that slight difference throw off the height estimate of the front, back and side creases?


Hey John,
Yes that is true. Back then, my goal was to put the Raiders hat into "real" numbers. There was a lot of assumptions back when I did that. Back then, it was floating around that the hat was 6" open crown, 5-3/4" open crown, 5" open crown. The simple thing to me was to work off the ribbon. I use 1-1/2" wide ribbon as a basis to figure the ratio of other aspects of the hat. Using this number, I instantly dispelled the over exaggeration of the hat. At least, dispelled to my curiosity. It came out so consistant between different hats that the results lead to the numbers that make sense and produced "real life" results. So much so, that the margin of error was going to be less that 1/4". Lots of difference between 4-1/2" and 4-1/4" in the hat world. One thing was sure, though, to measure 4-1/2", you could definitely rule out that it was 5". It just gave me a more accurate number that then allowed me to think in more precise terms. Sorry for the surveyor minded jaron.

True 39mm=1.5354331 in. That means there would be an inherent error of 0.0354331 per 1.5". Graphically that relates to being about the width of the tick mark on the ruler. Very slight. That seems to fall within being 1/8" translated to the whole height of the hat. To me that falls with a safe zone for getting the hat right. More that that and it become 1/4". I've made hats with a 1/4" more height to it and it didn't look "right" to the film hat. Remember, the numbers had to produce the "turned hat" and a "non-turned" hat (i.e exterior temple).

LLS[ [Garrison]

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... on#p654875

So, when I got the sample [39mm] I could see that the color is PERFECT. But when I received the actual ribbon and whiped it around the crown of one of my hats, I could immidately see, that this extra mm REALLY did the difference, if you're shoting for a screen accurate replica. It jumps out on ya. - Marc

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... hilit=39mm

I had a special run of VERY dark brown ribbon in 39mm width run. It is exact. - Lee Keppler

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... on#p683316

Again, I'm no expert, but the above quotes are from THE experts...... I've found quotes throughout the entire forum from Garrison, Penman, AB, Diego, Keppler, etc that all state 39mm....... unless there's something I'm missing. Is there another thread from a hat maker out there that states evidence that is supposed to be 38mm?

As I said though, other movies might be different. We know the TOD and LC went through some drastic changes just during filming not to mention between films and NONE of those hats ever matched the original Raiders hat. And as for CS - AB is probably the only company that's made the hat for an actual film to have actually done intense research on the previous films, I want to doubt that HJ did anything put produce another hat in what they felt was the same for the other films. Which tells me that what AB says is probably right, and Marc above said 39mm was it.

But to go back to your original question..... if the Ribbon size is right on the main page then I'd gather the rest of the dimensions are. Many people much more informed that I have spent years researching. I'd think they would update it if wrong. JMO

[Jeremiah]

Enough proof right there. 39 it is. Thanks for the facts backstagejack.

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I used a metric rule to measure the Garrison and ribbon that's on the Everyman hat and both were just a hair over 38mm. Neither were 39 mm or over. However the Advintage ribbon was well over 39mm. I guess it all comes down to the person taking the measurements and from my eye it closer to 38mm. Obviously I'm outnumbered by the ones who say different but I at least did the testing myself and didn't rely on what others say to come to my conclusion. I did look over the threads to see if any of the hatters agreed with me and at the time it seemed like Diego was in agreement that the ribbon was 38mm but after rereading the thread that I posted the link to it seems I was mistaken.
As for the dimensional cut brim if you'll take a look at Marc's hat tutorial in this section you'll see that to begin with he cut the brim all around to 2 3/4" I believe then when he goes to make the d-cut he talks of trimming off 1/4". That's what confused me to begin with because some hatters say the difference is 1/8 while others say 1/4. In the end I think it just comes down to what YOU think looks best and with the hat I made for myself, 2 3/4 front and back with sides a hair over 2 1/2 looks about right imo.
Btw, thanks for your research Jack

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Correction: I went back and looked over Marc's hat making tutorial and discovered that he starts with a 2 7/8 brim all around then takes off a little for the dimensional cut eventually reaching 1/4 on the sides.

[backstagejack]

I used a metric rule to measure the Garrison and ribbon that's on the Everyman hat and both were just a hair over 38mm. Neither were 39 mm or over. However the Advintage ribbon was well over 39mm. I guess it all comes down to the person taking the measurements and from my eye it closer to 38mm. Obviously I'm outnumbered by the ones who say different but I at least did the testing myself and didn't rely on what others say to come to my conclusion. I did look over the threads to see if any of the hatters agreed with me and at the time it seemed like Diego was in agreement that the ribbon was 38mm but after rereading the thread that I posted the link to it seems I was mistaken.
As for the dimensional cut brim if you'll take a look at Marc's hat tutorial in this section you'll see that to begin with he cut the brim all around to 2 3/4" I believe then when he goes to make the d-cut he talks of trimming off 1/4". That's what confused me to begin with because some hatters say the difference is 1/8 while others say 1/4. In the end I think it just comes down to what YOU think looks best and with the hat I made for myself, 2 3/4 front and back with sides a hair over 2 1/2 looks about right imo.
Btw, thanks for your research Jack

At this time in my life, I don't own any Indy hat anymore, so unfortunately I had to rely on what others said, but I'd only trust the ones I looked up to be fair..... unless someone actually has laid hands on the original and can confirm. At the end of the day, we're all relying on what Swales said recalling from memory about a hat that he probably barely cared about and was tired of people bothering him about.

I will also point out that per the dimensions of the hat.... I know some hatters will change the dimensions depending on the client's hat size, so as you said it really it all just depends on what you like.

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Bingo!!!

[Indiana Jeff]

I will also point out that per the dimensions of the hat.... I know some hatters will change the dimensions depending on the client's hat size, so as you said it really it all just depends on what you like.

Both points are key, hatters should cut the brim differently depending on the overall size of the hat to maintain consistent ratios and wear what you like.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Dalexs]

... At the end of the day, we're all relying on what Swales said recalling from memory about a hat that he probably barely cared about and was tired of people bothering him about.

Wait, so what you're saying is that the seaplane hat ISN'T gray???

[Indiana Jeff]

You're NOT helping.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff