Pocket Bull whip input.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:10 pm

Hello,

I'm looking for some input regarding the Pocket Bulls I make.

I have been making these miniature bullwhips every few months for the last two years or so. The very first one I made was just supposed to be a novelty. I had some extra leather left over after making a stock whip and thought it would be cool to make a pocket snake whip for easy carrying but with a bullwhip handle for better control. I had never seen such a thing and thought it a unique idea. So several hours and cuss words later I made my first mini-bullwhip. It sort of worked but I had no plans to make another.

Fairly pleased with my funny little whip I posted a photo of it here on COW to amuse everyone. I then gave it to my Mom as a gift and figured that was that. Little did I know that this little whip would get such a positive response. Sergei, being the generous good friend that he his, called me up and begged me to make him one. I had just started on the adventure of making whips and making a whip to order was quite scary. I agreed though and set about making the second mini-whip, which I dubbed a Pocket Bull, for Sergei.

Soon after the first QM summit, where Sergei showed his Pocket Bull around, I began getting more requests for these little whips. I was humbled that so many people were willing to take a chance with a novice whip maker such as myself. I worked hard to make the best whip I could and give them their monies worth. I hope I have acheived that.

Over these past couple of years the construction of these whips has continued to evolve and hopefully improve. I've kept to just making Pocket Bulls in order to stay out of the full sized whip market where more experienced whip makers have earned their right to compete. Now I am seeing that there are other whipmakers that are making mini-bullwhips of their own. I was frustrated at first. I had consciously chosen not to impede in their market and now this... However, I guess immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

So, by now you are asking, "What is this feedback you are looking for?" Well, since I am now forced into competing with other whipmakers for your business (a natural progression in a capitalist system) I'd like to know what I can do to make buying a Pocket Bull from me more enticing. I am currently supplying a small whip kit with each whip. I work hard to make my customer service enjoyable. I work hard to make each and every whip one that I would love to own myself. Each whip comes with an individually numbered tag. Would a web page devoted to these whips help?

I am moving to new house so my braiding station and all my supplies will be dismantled and boxed up for a while. I won't be braiding and I'm wondering if these Pocket Bulls are something that I will continue to offer when I start up again. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Kyle

PS- I have two for sale in the classifieds. I hope you'll take a look. http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7821

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:17 pm

All I can say, Kyle, is that I've been fortunate to handle several iterations of your pocketbull, including the very first one seen at the first QM summit, and from a neutral observers standpoint, there's nothing to be done to it but keep on keeping on. Are you including a 'tin' of Pecards in your whip kit? If not, you could probably get them from Pecards in sample form. Just don't back off, as someday I will purchase one from you.

I don't want a 'pretender'.

High regards. Michaelson

Chamorro · Post by **Chamorro** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:43 pm

MOST DEFINITELY, Something I own and I am very pleased with it.

Shishak · Post by **Shishak** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:50 pm

I own one and am EXTREMELY pleased with it. Also, any questions or concerns I've had have been quickly answered. I have absolutely nothing negative to say whatsoever.

prettybigguy · Post by **prettybigguy** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:53 pm

I am very pleased with mine as well. It's a fun whip to crack when you don't have the space to swing an 8 or 10 footer around and it cracks almost as loud as it's larger cousins.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:25 pm

UPDATE: PM's exchanged.

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:47 pm

Jerry R. Said

A new mini Indy

Quote speaks for itself.
Adam

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:36 pm

The_Edge wrote: I've kept to just making Pocket Bulls in order to stay out of the full sized whip market where more experienced whip makers have earned their right to compete. Now I am seeing that there are other whipmakers that are making mini-bullwhips of their own. I was frustrated at first. I had consciously chosen not to impede in their market and now this... However, I guess immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Mark Allen has been making Lil Indy whips for years.
http://www.westernstageprops.com/miva/m ... y_Code=IJC
Have you been making them longer than Mark has had them made? I repaired one for a customer a couple of years ago. For 4 ft it was kind of neat.

I've never been asked to make a Lil Indy whip by anyone. I make full size whips in the usual sizes of 8 ft, 10 ft and 12 ft. I leave the Lil Indy for Mark Allen, the Pocket Bull with Kyle and the Mini Indy with Jerry R. I;m sure there are others who've made short Indy whips.

Most of my Indy whips are natural tan in 12 plait but I occasionally get a request for 16 plait and a color of medium brown or black.

I once had a request to make an 8 plait Indy like Jim Markell makes. I just about refused to do it, but went ahead and quoted the guy a price. He was wanting me to beat Jim's price obviously.

Kyle, I say if you are confident about your whipmaking go for any size Indy you would like. No stepping on anyone's toes that I know of. I say go for it. Take a poll of the whipmakers here and ask them if you should make full size whips. It seems most people here respect your whipmaking skills. Size doesn't always matter.

A fine reputation and a good name is what matters most.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:58 pm

Robert Duke wrote:
Mark Allen has been making Lil Indy whips for years.
http://www.westernstageprops.com/miva/m ... y_Code=IJC
Have you been making them longer than Mark has had them made? I repaired one for a customer a couple of years ago. For 4 ft it was kind of neat.

Robert,

I've saw and handled the lil' Indy that Mark sells when I visited his shop a few years ago. It is basically just a small four foot bullwhip with a (if memory serves me) a regular length handle. It is a short, light weight target whip. The Pocket Bulls I make are closer to pocket snake whips in size with a very short handle foundation added for better control.

Robert Duke wrote:Kyle, I say if you are confident about your whipmaking go for any size Indy you would like. No stepping on anyone's toes that I know of. I say go for it. Take a poll of the whipmakers here and ask them if you should make full size whips. It seems most people here respect your whipmaking skills. Size doesn't always matter.

A fine reputation and a good name is what matters most.

That's the catch, I am not confident in my whipmaking skills for the larger whips. I don't feel that I have gotten my measurements and taper to a point that I would be selling a professional product. There are other more experienced whip makers out there, such as yourself, that have paid their dues and become proficent at building a consistent product. I don't deserve to compete at that level yet. There are certain characteristics I look for in a professionally made whip and I don't think my whips are there yet. My Pocket Bulls are at a point that I believe that folks that plunk down there hard earned money for one are getting a solid whip of my best work each time.

I won't sell a whip that I wouldn't be happy with myself. One time I made a HUGE mistake in fastening the handles to the shot bags. I didn't realize this mistake until these two Pocket Bulls were completely braided. I went to tie the Turk's knots and found that the handle could be twisted with in the plaited grip like a door knob. My customers had all ready sent their money to me as well! I contacted them both, told them of the delay and set about building two brand new whips. I could have easily done a shoddy repair job but then those whips wouldn't have been representative of me and my work and my customers would not have gotten what they paid for. I ate the cost of those two whips as braiding practice and learned an expensive lesson.

My point is, every whip that I send out the door has to, no exceptions, represent me at my best. My full sized bullwhips are not at that level yet. I'm still experimenting with my construction design, measurements, taper, balance, etc. When the time comes I want people to look at or pick up one of my whips and know exactly who made it. Until that day comes, I think folks are better off buying a quality product from an estabilished maker.

The reason for my poll is to get a better understanding of how my Pocket Bulls are perceived with in this community and whether or not there is still any interest in them.

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:24 pm

Kyle,

You hit the nail on the head. I see that you desire a good reputation and a fine name. That's the main thing. If you care that much about your customers, I don't see why not you can begin making full size whips.

I didn't realize the handles on your whips were like snakewhips. The Lil Indy whips Mark Allen has are very good for target work. I liked the way they handled. When I get a volunteer from a crowd to hold a target, I prefer to use a 4 to 5 ft whip.

One of these days I'd like to handle one of your pocket bulls.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:01 pm

I also have a Pocket Bull I was fortunate enough to pick up in person. It's a great lil' whip and one I'll have more time this year hopefully to give a good breaking in on... If Kyle's this dedicated to his 4 foot whips, I can't wait for the day when he makes an 8 footer....

Post by **Mike** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:23 pm

I've been dieing to get one of these since they were first announced. Other items and bills always seemed to get in the way when they were available, but I would love to still be able to get one.

Mike

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:49 am

Kyle you hit the nail on the head. The Lil Indy's are nice, but your version is unique. It's a cross between a snake and a bullwhip. It's got some nice heft to it, like a bullwhip. The Lil Indy is quite light in feel and balance. The Pocket Bull you can really wale on.

As far as the poll goes, I have one (the 2nd one) and it will go with the me to the "Old Soldiers" home, whenever that times comes. "From my cold, dead hands".

)

BTW, isn't that a picture of Charlton with a PocketBull?

)

-Sergei

Koreana Jones · Post by **Koreana Jones** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:57 pm

If thats him Sergei.... Mistah Heston very tiny man! As if you need any more praise from me Kyle. I love both of my Pocket Bulls and they go everywhere with me. And the times I have to go without them, I'm usually upset. Without these whips I would have gotten more battle scars from 3 dogs and probably would of gotten into a fight with some low life scum. Then there was when I had to keep Chamorro in check.

HAHA! Kidding people! If its one thing I know... Don't get a southern pacific islander mad. Crazy people! Back to the topic... Pocket Bulls are my favorite whip hands down but thumbs up!

Jun

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:09 pm

I appreciate all the kind words expressed here very much. Thank you.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Wed May 05, 2004 2:06 am

Chamorro wrote:MOST DEFINITELY, Something I own and I am very pleased with it.

Likewise. I'll also add the natural tan is darkening quite well with use and it's a perfect length with which to teach younger kids. When my son Logan was 11 and 12 he had to really work to do the basic cracks on the 8 footer but he could really control the 4 foot pocket bullwith ease.

I.J.

badger_state · Post by **badger_state** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:02 pm

Sheesh. I step away for a couple of months to move, start a new job, etc. and I come back to hear that Kyle is feeling a bit unsure of the market for his Pocket Bulls. Since I've just stepped inside from an extended session with my Pocket Bull, I have to tell you all how amazing these little whips are. I'm certainly not a great whip cracker by any stretch of the imagination, but I can actually do fast figure-8s, overhead cracks, etc. with my Pocket Bull. In fact, I'm much more confident of my abilities with the Pocket Bull than any other.

Now, if I can just convince Kyle to make me a longer handled bull or stockwhip (memo to self: start psychological campaign on Kyle...)

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