Origins, the Temple of Doom jacket....

[Texan Scott]

... .... The Raiders and LC jackets are not as fuzzy.....trust me!

Of the four jackets, the ToD has the most interesting past and remains a bit of a mystery. There are some lingering questions about how the ToD came to be and who made the jacket as seen in film..? What is funny about all this...or not so funny, is how stinkin' complicated this became just out of the gate....to make a jacket....

So after Raiders, did GL, SS and co. decided not to sign another exclusive contract with B&N, who had outsourced or sub-contracted the work out to others around London and go a different route? Why was the exclusive B&N not satisfactory to them, too complicated, too expensive, not enough creative control..?

I'm not understanding how the supposed Cooper could "buy" the rights to make the jackets? Instead of an 'exclusive' contract to make all the wardrobe, apparently they (LFL) would bid it out, or independently look for others, through Powell, who could make them. I guess that part was a little fuzzy, this whole "licensing" idea, or buying the rights to make the jacket, or that LFL had tried to retain exclusive ownership of the Indy jacket, and its subsequent iterations, if there was to be other films?

The whole supposed Cooper involvement and this French company is not making any sense? How did the French company get involved in the first place, through the product placement co. in LA?

How did Leather Concessionaires get bypassed for the second movie? The independent contract negotiations?

Here is what seems odd to me...? How could the supposed Cooper "buy" rights to make the 2nd jacket, if they did not make the first one? I am going to take a leap and say, let's put the Cooper claims on the shelf for now, since it has been called "hearsay and none of the claims could be substantiated" in relation to the Raiders jacket, based on the main site write up.

Some company definitely 'new' to the game, certainly made the ToD. You can tell by the way it is configured, the buckles, pleats, specs. and so forth, that someone else made it.

I remember some photos of KT wearing the jacket that was given to Noel Howard. Any thoughts and insight here, KT?

...was wondering if there was enough wardrobe left over from Raiders, pants, shirts, etc., to be used again? Jackets must have been destroyed, except for the 5?

"The situation regarding Raiders would not be repeated." What does this mean, specifically?

Just trying to unravel another one....comments?

[whipwarrior]

Here we go again...

[CM]

Remember Peter was a subcontractor. Peter was simply the leather guy used by the costume company who got the job. I understand Peter had done some work on a Bond film and got himself banned by the company, Bermans? who did the Indy costume. They had to use another leather guy. This is all on COW if you look it up. You could then summarize it for us in dot points.

[Texan Scott]

A few points as I've been looking at screen grabs are that the hat looks like an HJ, and I'm not seeing a Raiders looking jacket..?

[CM]

Tex it's worth mentioning that US Wings (buyer of Cooper) make the claim that Neil Cooper designed the first Indy jacket and that the Legend is a copy of that Raiders pattern: from the exact pattern used by Neil Cooper, who made the first Indy-style jacket for the first Indiana Jones movie.

I don't think Wings could make that claim about the connection if it wasn't largely true. Lucasfilm would be all over them. Whether the pattern is exact is a separate issue.

I'm also fairly certain that Peter Botwright did not design the Indy jacket pattern he simply made one to specs (an A2 with no knits as per the Western Costume final mock up).

Why Cooper for Temple? The relationship Cooper had with Indy films was already established.

Incidentally, I remember the 1970's when Cooper had the license to make Fonzie jackets from Happy Days. There are a range of precedents to this kind of relationship.

The real question for me is why did the Cooper jackets made in the 1980's and 90's look so different to the movie Temple jacket? If they created the pattern why did the retail version have such different details? Very different large clown pockets, totally different vent configuration, etc.

It's also true that the Cooper jackets varied a lot over the years; shapes of pocket changed a fair bit as, presumably did other things like wind-flaps and collar configurations.

My explanation for this is that these were the pre-Internet days. People didn't (and couldn't) examine screen captures and didn't have the same focus on exact copies we have today. Companies were able to release products to very different expectations. It was a totally different world and our desire to capture the precise look of props and clothing is a comparatively new thing.

[Indiego Jones]

IMO

Raiders PROTOTYPE jacket was used as "template" for ToD jackets.
I'm referring to the:
* Bantu Wind dock scenes jacket
* Terry's stunt jacket -drag behind a truck- scene

I can see a few specs and details replicated on the ToD jackets.
Like the full lenght back pleats, large yoke, smaller pockets, collar proportions.

BTS caps:






It was briefly discussed here too:
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?p=851222#p851222" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMO, that's no WILSON jacket. That's a prototype made by Peter in a rush, before the whole production went to La Rochelle.
After that first filming, Peter managed to improve his pattern into the Raiders definitive jackets.

About the workshop who put the ToD jackets together....no idea.
I don't think Cooper was involved in any way.

Cheers.-

[Michaelson]

That's not what the letter from Lucasfilm lawyers to David Hack says, but what ever.

The information has been reconfigured and repackaged so many times since we first posted the information given to us by the original players, it's not even worth debating anymore. As I said in the CS jacket discussion, those original players are either gone or just don't care anymore as to whom claims what. It just doesn't matter.

They got paid, they've defended their positions over and over again for years, only to have these contrary opinions posted yet again.....so it's just not worth fighting the same hill again and again......so.....

"When the legend becomes fact... print the legend".

Regard! Michaelson

[Indiana Jeff]

Of the four jackets, the ToD has the most interesting past and remains a bit of a mystery. There are some lingering questions about how the ToD came to be and who made the jacket as seen in film..?

I suggest everyone check out this website for more details. http://indygear.com/igjacket-tod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Specifically,

Lucasfilm licensed the jacket before production began. Part of that license included product placement. As a result, the design was effectively given to the license holder and not the wardrobe designer. While several companies were approached, one had some limited experience with the design—Cooper.

Cooper received the licensing rights for post movie retail production/sales of jackets and therefore the 'product placement' for in TOD itself. As Michaelson and CM referenced, to this day, USW has been the only company that has held the LFL legal team at bay when other makers (Steve Delk included) were issued C&D letters for using the Indy name to sell their products.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

There is so much to this we will never know because we weren't there. All you can do is piece it together as best we can. There may be some truth to your claim, Diego? I see the little pockets on TL's jacket. I wonder if he was not using a jacket from the 1st or 2nd iteration? The dock scene jacket was definitely low yoke, as the stills have always pointed to. Undoubtedly, as they progressed through the iterations, they had to get to the 3rd iteration before any of these jackets were chosen for use on film. That would mean that the jackets from the 1st & 2nd iterations were basically unusable, but could have been used for the truck drag since it was going to be destroyed anyway? It definitely wasn't a Wilson A-2 with knit cuffs, etc.

Another interesting tidbit is that KT is about the only one in the forum who has handled a ToD jacket personally, and he has said before, that he did not think it was a Cooper...? This would be the jacket that apparently Powell gave to NH.

If Ford and TL were using proto jackets, the yokes got thinner and the pockets got larger from the 1st to the final iteration, as they pared it down to what they really wanted?

[Michaelson]

Another interesting tidbit is that KT is about the only one in the forum who has handled a ToD jacket personally, and he has said before, that he did not think it was a Cooper...? This would be the jacket that apparently Powell gave to NH.

Not so. There have been several members over the years that not only handled the jacket, but were allowed to try it on in Noel Howard's shop, and they said it was categorically not a Wested, including Noel, though at the time he SAID he had no clue WHO made it (claiming he really didn't recall, but he said that a lot when it came to honoring the non disclosure agreement which was still in effect at the time). All he'd say was want it was 'not' made by the original subcontractor, and that 'some French folks' were somehow involved.

Noel was one of the nicest folks I had the pleasure of talking to, but he kept his cards close to the vest when it came to industry information. He'd talk in generalities, but nothing much specific.

With Noel's passing, he's no longer around to either defend what he 'said', or add any further to that discussion.

By the way, all those photos were posted here as well, but those photo accounts have long since timed out.

Regard! M

[CM]

I remember back when Peter was given the Howard jacket to copy - he certainly said he didn't make it and it was put together in a very different way to any jacket he had ever made. Glued hem, very unusual back vent, odd hardware.

I can see no reason at present to doubt the Cooper story. But really in the end the main costumer hired someone with a leather workshop to produce a bunch of jackets. Sometime such people remain anonymous. Peter is fortunate (I say this affectionately) that the fans found him and built his legend.

The jacket story will always be full of loose ends, that's how human activity works. I was initially skeptical that Peter had ever made any jackets for the movie. I remember a time where he did not reproduce accurate examples - My LC did not look like the film version - and his Raiders pockets and collar were all wrong. Clearly the patterns went missing. It was only when Tony came on the scene with access to an original Raiders that we started to get more accurate jackets. That in itself is bizarre. It took a copy of a copy to set the original maker straight.

[CM]

Another interesting tidbit is that KT is about the only one in the forum who has handled a ToD jacket personally, and he has said before, that he did not think it was a Cooper...?

How can anyone tell from feeling a jacket who made it? This jacket was hand crafted for a movie, it was not a production Cooper made in their factory and labeled as such. Remember that Neil Cooper was a leather worker and designer. If he made the jackets (and I have no reason to doubt this) he would have made them to spec: they would have been film specific.

The question should be flipped - why didn't the factory Disney Coopers that followed have patterns like the film version?

[ChrisMD]

There is so much to this we will never know because we weren't there. All you can do is piece it together as best we can.

I think what Jeff and M were pointing to is that people who were there and in the know have solved this. This is more or less a rehashing of already known information. No disrespect meant at all as I enjoy a thinking thread as much as the next gearhead but I was under the impression this was solved credibly, and some years ago. Seems like there is a bit of confusion now about it. Jeff's link pretty much covers it , unless new information has come to light. Just my .02.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texan Scott]

Having drawn three Admin and a strong Cooper supporter, I'll state the following.....

I suppose that any of the comments can be disassembled piece meal, but I like to pursue discussion in an honest way. Sometimes it's best, when things don't always make sense to back up and look at it from different angles.

There are basically two schools of thought with these jacket origins, at least for those of us who care to drill it down any deeper for more information, or for amusement or just because it is interesting.

Not having been there, then we sort of have to read between the lines, but I believe that most likely, LFL signed an exclusive agreement with B&N to make elements of the costume. Then B&N further sub-contracted out the work to various parties around London, since much of the movie was shot at Elstree, the Rickmansworth School, and even relatively nearby across the channel, at La Rochelle, France. In the early days, Lucas had to shoot over there. For one it was cheaper, and he was not accepted by the Hollywood establishment.

But make no mistake about it, there are some who really want that the jacket be produced by an American maker. I just do not believe that story about Cooper. Years ago, it was stated that SS was not happy with Peter's work, and that he flew Neil Cooper to London in from the states, and that he made two jackets for Raiders overnight. Sorry.... I just can't buy that.

Raiders was operating on a relative, "shoe string" budget in those days, and not only that, but SS needed to prove that he could deliver a movie on time and under budget, so not only was it filmed quick and dirty, but relatively "cheaply" for a major motion picture such as this back in the day.

I think it much more likely that all the articles of what we now call the "gear" were made around London, under exclusive contract by B&N, not that anyone except us would really care or be that interested in the proceedings.

...the Western Costume "mock up" was never photoed. If there was one, it obviously didn't look like the Wilson A-2's. If there was one, why didn't WC make a couple of leather jackets...because it was closer to what they wanted... before DN got on the plane for London?

The dock jacket had a low yoke, and strangely, the TL stunt jacket for the truck drag had small pockets with large flaps, similar to ToD, as knibs and Diego seem to varify. It looks like these two were protos, or possibly jackets from the 1st & 2nd iterations. Further, it looks like these jackets could have been the inspiration for the ToD.

[CM]

Sorry Texan, with respect you seem to be going all over the place on this one. Maybe it would help if you told us what your theory is and what evidence you have for it since it seems to me underneath your questions you have some strong views.

Are you saying that because you don't believe one version of the Cooper story involving Raiders that you don't believe the Cooper connection to ToD as well? You seem to be saying that the Cooper story only exists because some want an American link to the jacket. Really?

As it happens I'm not saying Cooper made the jacket for ToD just that the evidence says he did. I can see no reason to doubt this

I'd be happy to learn that someone else made the ToD jacket but who and where's the evidence? Peter said he did not make it. We know Neil Cooper was involved from the very first film and may well have made the first viable pattern for Raiders as we now know it. I'd be happy to learn that some anonymous leather guy was hired by Bermans to do the ToD jackets and that his name name is forgotten because it was just a film job and no one involved really cares any more.

So what are you bringing to this apart from personal hunches? I'd love to hear new information if you have access to it.

As to the photos - don't know what they prove. The truck jacket to me never much looked like a ToD jacket; it looks like a Raiders jacket with the sides sewn up for the stunt. The write up says it was a Wilsons jacket used for this. But who can really tell from the poor angels and really bad footage? The idea of a prototype jacket with a low yolk? Maybe but what's the evidence other than people interpreting screen captures?

[Mark Raats]

As has been mentioned before, the problem with this topic is that many of the players have either moved on or their memories are faulty (tell a story one way for long enough and it becomes fact). I have had the opportunity to discuss at length many of these items - and others - with the folk entrusted with this archiving at Lucasfilm and while they are impressively qualified individuals in their own right, a lot of the time, the info they give back can be faulty, flawed or is based on someone else's recollections - which is problematic when chasing specific facts.

While I don't believe for a moment that the current folk are willingly trying to mislead or give out wrong info, the truth of the matter is that with so many versions and with some many conflicting stories, reports and recollections, its becoming impossible to draw and firm path, timeline or production chain surrounding these iconic items. Besides fuzzy recollections, vague/lost memories or documents there is also now a massive bias by nearly everyone (even those originally working on the movies) concerned because, the movies are now so big, that everyone - other than the big tree themselves - is wanting his/her place in the sun and through this this, the most amazing stories have sprung.

Will we ever get to the bottom of these? Personally I don't believe we will because even at Skywalker Ranch there can be a vagueness that is inescapable.

Regards
MARK

[CM]

That's all true Mark but there's still merit in trying to establish what we do know beyond reasonable doubt. We can certainly say that Peter made jackets for Raiders. He may well have made them for ToD (and they were not used) clearly the Noel Howard jacket wasn't Peters, so whose was it? We can say that Cooper was involved from the start. Is there any evidence that Cooper did not make the ToD jackets? Etc. All harmless fun.

[Indiana Jeff]

Having drawn three Admin and a strong Cooper supporter, I'll state the following.....

I suppose that any of the comments can be disassembled piece meal, but I like to pursue discussion in an honest way. Sometimes it's best, when things don't always make sense to back up and look at it from different angles.

There are basically two schools of thought with these jacket origins, at least for those of us who care to drill it down any deeper for more information, or for amusement or just because it is interesting.

Not having been there, then we sort of have to read between the lines, but I believe that most likely, LFL signed an exclusive agreement with B&N to make elements of the costume. Then B&N further sub-contracted out the work to various parties around London, since much of the movie was shot at Elstree, the Rickmansworth School, and even relatively nearby across the channel, at La Rochelle, France. In the early days, Lucas had to shoot over there. For one it was cheaper, and he was not accepted by the Hollywood establishment.

But make no mistake about it, there are some who really want that the jacket be produced by an American maker. I just do not believe that story about Cooper. Years ago, it was stated that SS was not happy with Peter's work, and that he flew Neil Cooper to London in from the states, and that he made two jackets for Raiders overnight. Sorry.... I just can't buy that.

Raiders was operating on a relative, "shoe string" budget in those days, and not only that, but SS needed to prove that he could deliver a movie on time and under budget, so not only was it filmed quick and dirty, but relatively "cheaply" for a major motion picture such as this back in the day.

I think it much more likely that all the articles of what we now call the "gear" were made around London, under exclusive contract by B&N, not that anyone except us would really care or be that interested in the proceedings.

...the Western Costume "mock up" was never photoed. If there was one, it obviously didn't look like the Wilson A-2's. If there was one, why didn't WC make a couple of leather jackets...because it was closer to what they wanted... before DN got on the plane for London?

The dock jacket had a low yoke, and strangely, the TL stunt jacket for the truck drag had small pockets with large flaps, similar to ToD, as knibs and Diego seem to varify. It looks like these two were protos, or possibly jackets from the 1st & 2nd iterations. Further, it looks like these jackets could have been the inspiration for the ToD.

This is all related to the Raiders jacket, I'm confused why it's included in this TOD thread.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Indiego Jones]

IMO

The next deductions are the continuation of my previous post, about the Raiders PROTOTYPE jacket became "template" for the ToD jackets:

1) If Cooper was involved in the Raiders jacket making, he came in AFTER the "La Rochelle" filming. (to do the HERO jackets, and replacing the POS -supposedly named like that by SS- used on the Bantu dock scenes)

2) If Cooper did the Raiders HEROs, we know those jackets looks different from ToD. And of course, different from the PROTOTYPE he should had improved.

3) So, if Cooper was hired to do the ToD jackets, those should look more like the Raiders. INSTEAD they look closer to the PROTOTYPE jacket.

4) This is a total contradiction. How come, the same person who was hired -4 years before- to improve a jacket, ends up replicating the wrong patterns, he modified in the first place ????

I think the Cooper / LFL agreement or contract could have been misunderstood.
Maybe it had to do with licensed replica jackets.-

[CM]

Not sure I follow you Indiego.

I have no idea where Cooper fits into the Raiders story. All I accept is that he submitted a jacket/s. Whether the jacekt was used, or his pattern was used on screen I can't say, although there are various accounts.

As for the prototype - I don't know which one that's meant to be. I'm also not sure about the Bantu wind jacket. Is it really different to the others? Maybe, I can't tell from the footage. Is this a Wilsons jacket, maybe?

If Cooper made the ToD jackets why wouldn't the pattern change from the Raider's jacket? Heck, Peter's pattern for the Raiders change too and kept changing for some time. Isn't it also possible that the ToD costume designer wanted tweaks or something closer to the WC mock up which may have been the standard reference?

[Indiego Jones]

Not sure I follow you Indiego.

I have no idea where Cooper fits into the Raiders story. All I accept is that he submitted a jacket/s. Whether the jacekt was used, or his pattern was used on screen I can't say, although there are various accounts.

Exactly, Cooper into the Raiders story doesn't fit. (despite a crazy old theory burried years ago...which I'm indirectly referring )
I think this thread is about the screen-used jackets in ToD.
If Cooper submitted jackets that saw zero screen time is, IMO, irrelevant.

As for the prototype - I don't know which one that's meant to be. I'm also not sure about the Bantu wind jacket. Is it really different to the others? Maybe, I can't tell from the footage. Is this a Wilsons jacket, maybe?

PROTOTYPE = Bantu wind dock scenes
Full lenght back pleats, low yoke, smaller pockets, collar proportions = differences from Raiders Hero jackets
This I'm pointing to you are visible facts just watching the movie and/or HD screencaps.

Not a Wilson jacket. Those were discarded by Nadoolman BEFORE shooting started (left at London before La Rochelle, she stated many times).

If Cooper made the ToD jackets why wouldn't the pattern change from the Raider's jacket? Heck, Peter's pattern for the Raiders change too and kept changing for some time. Isn't it also possible that the ToD costume designer wanted tweaks or something closer to the WC mock up which may have been the standard reference?

Yes, I agree with you, this could be another valid theory.

[Texan Scott]

Why go back to the Raiders jackets to discuss ToD? Because it's like building a foundation, and you need to have that, or everything is shaky.

We were told that Wilson's jackets were A-2's and that the Raiders truck drag could have possibly been an A-2. As you can see from the photos of TL climbing around on the truck, that there are no knits, cuffs, etc., so it can't be Wilson's if they were A-2's. It says that the whip and gun hung up on the Wilson's. So let's lay that aside for now. I don't believe a Wilson with knits was used during the truck chase.

Diego and knibs both submitted stills in an effort to show that accidentally or co-incidentally, that one or more "ToD" jackets surfaced during the LC shooting, and that possibly this was a stunt jacket, and possibly was used before.

Too bad we can't see more of the dock jacket, but we do know that it features a low yoke (with no knits), much lower than the Raiders Hero jacket, (referencing the cobra scene in the WoS), so we know that this jacket IS different from the main Hero and Hawaii jackets. So what was it they were using at the dock? It had to be a proto or a jacket from the 1st or 2nd iteration, that is about all it could be. Why? Because the yoke was different. Had we been able to see it all, it might have revealed the little, triangular pockets as well. Still we can't prove it, definitively. All we know is that the dock jacket had a low yoke and that is different from the Raiders Hero. We can speculate that possibly this was a proto that was submitted and rejected and was used until the Hero jacket was made.

What was TL using? Based on those stills above and the stills from the knibs thread, the jacket, at least one, was in existence during Raiders, at some point, because of the little pockets with wider, pointed flaps. This type of jacket, whether there was one or more, could have been the inspiration for the ToD jacket, and I think that possibly, and I do mean possibly, the jacket (one or more) used in ToD could have been a Raiders proto., or a jacket from the 1st and or 2nd iterations. Its interesting that these jackets that apparently were rejected, kept appearing on the backs of the stunt guys. Ford would have had first pick, the wardrobe would have seen to that, but the left overs, were not quite as important, so undoubtedly the stuntmen used whatever was left over, more comfortable, etc., jackets that were not pegged for main scenes and major film time.

Apparently, the jacket used in ToD took inspiration from a Raiders proto jacket, or could have possibly been a Raiders proto, either (a) proto or one of the iteration jackets that did not make the final cut, that possibly appears on Ford in the dock sequence and another jacket that TL used in the truck drag. That this old stock (not earmarked for the Hero) served as inspiration or possibly a template for the ToD. This means that there must have been jackets that were around in Raiders and made it to ToD, or at least were copied for ToD. The low yoke and little pockets with the wider, triangular flaps are a dead give away. However it happened, some survived Raiders or were copied and ended up on the backs of the guys in ToD, and apparently, based on what knibs submitted, also saw a little time in LC, during the tank chase sequence.

It appears as though the jacket Ford wore in the closing sequence of ToD, could have been....could have been....the jacket on TL's back in the truck drag..? Look at the folds/creases to the upper sleeve if you don't believe me. If not, then how do you reproduce those specific kinds of creases?

It appears that some jackets survived Raiders to live another day in film.

[Indiana Jeff]

Where are you getting that the Wilson jackets were A2s?

Again, from the main site and interviews with DNL (emphasis is mine):

Based on these sketches, “ten military-style plain cuffed and plain hemmed leather jackets” were ordered from Wilson’s Leather in Los Angeles. This was the extent of the original specification, and Wilson’s responded with an altered A2-like jacket design that removed the jersey knits from the hems and cuffs.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

Maybe I misread that part, but its interesting that TS had already screen tested for Indy in an A-2 with knits and a gray fedora.

[ChrisMD]

Maybe I misread that part, but its interesting that TS had already screen tested for Indy in an A-2 with knits and a gray fedora.

It is completely feasible that someone grabbed what they had at home to somewhat mimic the concept art for the screen test. They wouldn't order a dozen jackets for a screen test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Michaelson]

Comic book artist Jim Steranko's concept art was created in 1979 by request of Lucas.

TS was tested in April 1980 but was barred by CBS to participate due to his contract with Magnum.

Ford wasn't even asked to participate in the film until 2 weeks before the start of principal photography in May of 1980.

Deborah Nadoolman has stated numerous times she didn't even HAVE a jacket in hand until she arrived in France and did the initial distressing with Ford's knife the night before the first day of shooting.

Ergo, the A2 used by TS for his test was as close as they could come to the concept art by Steranko, as envisioned by Lucas in his initial discussions about the production.

So, if you follow the chronology of the events as they're recorded all over the world wide web, the answers are already out there regarding these particular things.

Regard! M

[Texan Scott]

Low yoke and little pockets with the wide flaps...?

I see them in various parts of Raiders, ToD and a few times in LC...?

Are we just looking at rabbits and seeing bears, as my HS physics teacher would have said?

...or could there be some validity to the claim?


Have you ever been chased by Nazi's?

[Holt]

I have been reading this topic with interest but stayed out of the discussion for many reasons..

But riddle me this, if some doubt the Cooper/french company did not make the TofD jackets, why would an american or english based company go thru some hassle to source the odd weird ''Solide Paris'' two pronge tri glides on their straps when they are on short time leash? Whats the point?

I figure a french based company would definitily use their own hardware. The temple jackets have buckles that are stamped with ''Paris'', as in Paris made. So why wouldn't the Jackets have been made in France again?

[Texan Scott]

...because the same people that like French dip also prefer French buckles..?

I'm just wondering if old stock was used rather than making everything again? It looks like some things were recycled. I mean, if you order say, a dozen shirts and pants, how many would you really need per film, 2-3 at the most?

If you look at old A-2 jackets, they had smaller pockets. What does that mean? If protos were made and rejected, one of the reasons might have been in favor of larger pockets, which is what the Hero jacket was. You also saw an upsize from the ToD to LC pockets.

[Holt]

Could be but most likely no don't think so. Possibble one jacket from an earlier movie had some screen time but like I said.. most likely not. A production requires control and an exact number of wardrobe pieces made for each film no matter how much old stock they have left. They can't rely on old stock for many reasons. Out of a dozen jackets on lets say 4,5,6,7 or 8 months production that includes travel, stuntmen, stealing/missing jackets, promo shooting, stand-ins, wardrobe fittings and hero jackets (1 or 2 main jackets) U probbaly use about that number.

I work in the industry so I have an idea of how much really is required.

[Texan Scott]

Check this out.....how could a "ToD" with such small pockets end up in a Raiders stunt and a LC...?

[Holt]

Dude. You don't have to show me. Trust me, I was there when the tofd investigation took place moons ago on COW. In fact I blieve those circled pictures are mine..


Temple jacket in LC was used by Armstrong. Armstrong kept a fedora and a jacket from the Temple production. He stored those items in his home. Those pieces were re-used by his choice in LC. Tank scene, Horse scene, hence why you see it in LC.

This here is actually old news and was discovered way before knibs came to the table with that info. It's all there. Research button comes a long way

[CM]

I have been reading this topic with interest but stayed out of the discussion for many reasons..

But riddle me this, if some doubt the Cooper/french company did not make the TofD jackets, why would an american or english based company go thru some hassle to source the odd weird ''Solide Paris'' two pronge tri glides on their straps when they are on short time leash? Whats the point?

I figure a french based company would definitily use their own hardware. The temple jackets have buckles that are stamped with ''Paris'', as in Paris made. So why wouldn't the Jackets have been made in France again?

Sorry Holt I have missed the connection of French hardware to Cooper. Does the presence of French hardware help or hinder the Cooper story?

[CM]

As for the prototype - I don't know which one that's meant to be. I'm also not sure about the Bantu wind jacket. Is it really different to the others? Maybe, I can't tell from the footage. Is this a Wilsons jacket, maybe?

PROTOTYPE = Bantu wind dock scenes
Full lenght back pleats, low yoke, smaller pockets, collar proportions = differences from Raiders Hero jackets
This I'm pointing to you are visible facts just watching the movie and/or HD screencaps.

Do we know for certain the prototype is a Botwright - could it not be a Cooper, hence the difference between it and the others?

[Texan Scott]

That is really where the road forks. Either you believe the production entered into an exclusive contract with B&N, subsequently they farmed out the work, leading to Leather Concessionaires; or you believe that Cooper made it. If so, how did he become involved? Is not an exclusive contract exclusive? That once in England, they chose instead to defer back across the sea?

[CM]

Peter has already said he didn't make the ToD jacket. It was Cooper or a mysterious French co no one can find.

[Indiana Jeff]

Tex, maybe it's because I'm still on my first cup of coffee, but you confused me again.

Are you saying all the jackets in TOD are left over jackets from ROLA?

Are you saying you think Wested made the TOD jackets?

Are you saying you think ROLA jackets were used as templates to make brand new TOD jackets?

Who do you think made the TOD jackets?


Not trying to pick at you, but I'm really confused.

Maybe a bullet point summary of your line of reasoning or chronology will help me catch up.

That is really where the road forks. Either you believe the production entered into an exclusive contract with B&N, subsequently they farmed out the work, leading to Leather Concessionaires; or you believe that Cooper made it. If so, how did he become involved? Is not an exclusive contract exclusive? That once in England, they chose instead to defer back across the sea?

This quote I think is referring to ROLA jackets? Again, I'm not sure why you keep bringing the making of ROLA jackets into a TOD thread.

To me the two issues are mutually exclusive.

Someone made jackets for ROLA. Done.

We know at least a couple ROLA jackets survived the production and were either kept by GL or members of the crew.

When it came time to make TOD jackets, it's certainly probable Anthony Powell (costume designer) went to whatever jackets he could access as a starting point for making jackets for TOD.

But why wonder why the TOD jackets aren't carbon copies of ROLA jackets?

We know Bernie Pollack (costume designer) looked to existing jackets to design the costume for CS, yet the specs given to Tony Nowak (CS jacket maker) differed from any of the three previous movie specs. That's a costume designer putting his own stamp on the franchise.

Really the bigger question is why the TOD and LC jackets differ so greatly. Anthony Powell was the Costume Designer for both. But that would be a topic for another thread.


NOTE: The parenthetical notes are for newer members who may be reading this and not know all the names being referenced or their roles in the movie productions.




Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

Jeff, as I tried to explain, it's interesting that these jackets with the low yokes and little pockets kept appearing in various scenes and outtakes, as the stills indicate, going back to Raiders. I believe the proto or possibly one or more jackets from the iterations in Raiders were at least the inspiration for the ToD jacket. The dock jacket had a low yoke, but we cannot see the whole jacket in detail. The TL truck drag...low yoke and little pockets, the ToD and LC tank sequence. All these apparently with low yokes and little pockets. That is why it was important to start with Raiders, because apparently, ToD was not the first time these jacket(s) appeared.

I believe that initially, in Raiders, one of these jackets was made (a proto) and submitted, but rejected, and maybe it was partially rejected because of the little pockets. If you look at historical A-2's, they have little pockets that are not really practical today, almost token pockets. Whatever the case, we do know the dock jacket was made with a low yoke, which is much different in width than the Hero. What was it? Most likely a proto was used for the dock sequence until the Hero could be made. Further, it looks like the rejected the proto, was replaced with upsized map pockets in the Hero & Hawaii jackets. After ToD, they went with larger pockets on the LC. Upsizing each time.

The TL jacket, what was it? Again, a jacket with low yoke and little pockets appear. What was it, it must have been a proto or a jacket from the 1st or 2nd iteration, there are not many other options.

If the low yoke/little pockets with triangular wide flaps were seen in Raiders, then it appears that these jackets were old stock, and possibly kept in storage, and either these jackets were used in ToD or served as templates for the jacket(s) in ToD. You already have evidence from the stills that this jacket, one or more, pre-existed ToD, so it follows that possibly, the Raiders proto or rejected jackets from the 1st and/or 2nd iterations from Raiders served as the basis for ToD.

KT has stated emphatically before, that the ToD jacket he handled did not look like a Leather Concessionaire and did not look like a Cooper. It seems to still be a mystery, as to who actually made that jacket. If a guy who knows these jackets has actually tried it on, and checked around on its features doesn't have a firm idea where the jacket came from, then ...? What we do see in the photo above, someone had tried the jacket on, that the ToD had a large, aluminum like zipper, mounted on the left side under the storm flap....under the storm flap.

The Raiders proto & iteration(s) must have been kept in storage. They could have decided to hold on to them, because you had a hit movie on your hands. Powell takes the helm, and 'let's see what we've got' left over? How much apparel do we have already made, and possibly what more do we need to have made? They drag them out again. Not only the jacket, but you need the old stock to basically be templates for the new movie, pants, shirts, for consistency, etc. Wasn't just any old work pant or shirt.

It has also been stated before that DN had nothing in her hands when she went to England, so I am wondering if there is any teeth to the Wilson's notion? In the meeting, Kelly and Peter discuss the jacket details, and Peter says I'll just modify a James Dean...? This would imply that no jackets, at least no leather jackets existed before von Peter began to cut.

[CM]

Jeff, as I tried to explain, it's interesting that these jackets with the low yokes and little pockets kept appearing in various scenes and outtakes, as the stills indicate, going back to Raiders. I believe the proto or possibly one or more jackets from Raiders were at least the inspiration for the ToD jacket. The dock jacket had a low yoke, but we cannot see the whole jacket in detail. The TL truck drag...low yoke and little pockets, the ToD and LC tank sequence. All these apparently with low yokes and little pockets. That is why it was important to start with Raiders, because apparently, ToD was not the first time these jacket(s) appeared.

The proto may have had a lower yolk but the rest of the details may have been the same as the other Raiders jackets. Certainly looks that way in the Bantu wind sequence and behind the scenes footage.

I believe that initially, in Raiders, one of these jackets was made (a proto) and submitted, but rejected, and maybe it was partially rejected because of the little pockets. If you look at historical A-2's, they have little pockets that are not really practical today, almost token pockets. Whatever the case, we do know the dock jacket was made with a low yoke, which is much different in width than the Hero. What was it? Most likely a proto was used for the dock sequence until the Hero could be made. Further, it looks like the rejected the proto, was replaced with upsized map pockets in the Hero & Hawaii jackets. After ToD, they went with larger pockets on the LC. Upsizing each time.

Some A2's have slightly smaller pockets but none are as small as the ToD pockets. I think you're jumping to conclusions about whether or if the proto was rejected. What makes you think the pocket size mattered to the film makers?

The TL jacket, what was it? Again, a jacket with low yoke and little pockets appear. What was it, it must have been a proto or a jacket from the 1st or 2nd iteration, there are not many other options.

A Wilson jacket. No reason to assume otherwise.

If the low yoke/little pockets with triangular wide flaps were seen in Raiders, then it appears that these jackets were old stock, and possibly kept in storage, and either these jackets were used in ToD or served as templates for the jacket(s) in ToD. You already have evidence from the stills that this jacket, one or more, pre-existed ToD, so it follows that possibly, the Raiders proto or rejected jackets from the 1st and/or 2nd iterations from Raiders served as the basis for ToD.

Maybe the smaller pockets belonged to the Cooper jacket hence they appear in Raiders and later in ToD. Fits the Neil Cooper claims.


KT has stated emphatically before, that the ToD jacket he handled did not look like a Leather Concessionaire and did not look like a Cooper. It seems to still be a mystery, as to who actually made that jacket. If a guy who knows these jackets has actually tried it on, and checked around on its features doesn't have a firm idea where the jacket came from, then ...? What we do see in the photo above, someone had tried the jacket on, that the ToD had a large, aluminum like zipper, mounted on the left side under the storm flap....under the storm flap.

Again, how would Kt know the ToD was not a Cooper? Where's his point of comparison - a Disney Cooper, maybe? The jacket was said to be made by Neil Cooper by hand not the New Jersey factory. Also how do you know the zips weren't swapped out - it was said that this happened to the Indy Jackets.

The Raiders proto & iteration(s) must have been kept in storage. They could have decided to hold on to them, because you had a hit movie on your hands. Powell takes the helm, and 'let's see what we've got' left over? How much apparel do we have already made, and possibly what more do we need to have made? They drag them out again. Not only the jacket, but you need the old stock to basically be templates for the new movie, pants, shirts, for consistency, etc. Wasn't just any old work pant or shirt.

I can't follow this last point, sorry.

[Texan Scott]

....I added a few brief sentences to the end there CM.

I still do not believe the notion that SS had him secretly flown in to make the jacket(s) at the last minute, like no one else could make leather jackets around London? That must have been a long night for the guy, making two jackets, and it has already been proven that there was a proto and it existed before the Hero. The dock outtakes prove it.

Make plenty o' coffee Steven! It's going to be a long night!

Raiders was operating on a shoe string budget back in the day, and no one had foreknowledge of what this movie would become. It was a B movie on steroids.

[CM]

It has also been stated before that DN had nothing in her hands when she went to England, so I am wondering if there is any teeth to the Wilson's notion? In the meeting, Kelly and Peter discuss the jacket details, and Peter says I'll just modify a James Dean...? This would imply that no jackets, at least no leather jackets existed before von Peter began to cut.

I don't think we can dispose of the Wilson jacket idea just because they don't come up in this part of the write up. The Wilson jackets were made and as far as we can tell one was worn by TL in the truck sequence.

I think they met Peter with a view of getting an A2 style without knits and with a back vent to accommodate the gun and whip. Presumably this can be conveyed pretty well by holding up a plain, short leather jacket (the James Dean) and showing where and what is wanted. They were all experts in making patterns so why not? And who knows, Kelly may have done some sketches in the moment Or Peter may have demonstrated his understanding of the project very well by pointing to areas on the jacket and describing the changes needed. This last part does't advance our understanding.

[Michaelson]

It has also been stated before that DN had nothing in her hands when she went to England, so I am wondering if there is any teeth to the Wilson's notion? In the meeting, Kelly and Peter discuss the jacket details, and Peter says I'll just modify a James Dean...? This would imply that no jackets, at least no leather jackets existed before von Peter began to cut.

'Notion'? DN was the source of the Wilson information. SHE was the one who said she ordered jackets from Wilson but they weren't ready yet when she left for production in France but would be shipped over later, and she has said this in many interviews over the years.

Regards! M

[Texan Scott]

I think there were certain concepts to the jacket that needed to exist, namely shortness. The big issue was the gun and whip hanging up. Next, would be the modified A-2 look, then I am guessing the pleats, etc.

M, it would be really interesting to know at what point the Wilson's entered the picture and what they may have looked like?

I forgot to mention the other idea as told to me years ago, that GL & SS did not like dealing with military/defense type contractors at all.

[CM]

....I added a few brief sentences to the end there CM.

I still do not believe the notion that SS had him secretly flown in to make the jacket(s) at the last minute, like no one else could make leather jackets around London? That must have been a long night for the guy, making two jackets, and it has already been proven that there was a proto and it existed before the Hero. The dock outtakes prove it.

Make plenty o' coffee Steven! It's going to be a long night!

Raiders was operating on a shoe string budget back in the day, and no one had foreknowledge of what this movie would become. It was a B movie on steroids.

Hang on. I never said how Cooper was involved. The SS flying him out story may be wrong. But that doesn't mean Cooper wasn't involved in some way. US Wings place him as making the Raiders jackets in their ads - Lucasfilm would't allow this if it didn't fit.

[Texan Scott]

Why get Peter involved then, that the whole time, they were going around the B&N contract?

[CM]

I think there were certain concepts to the jacket that needed to exist, namely shortness. The big issue was the gun and whip hanging up. Next, would be the modified A-2 look, then I am guessing the pleats, etc.

M, it would be really interesting to know at what point the Wilson's entered the picture and what they may have looked like?

I forgot to mention the other idea as told to me years ago, that GL & SS did not like dealing with military/defense type contractors at all.

Tex are you just playing with us? The Wilson has been described several times and there are some good photos of TL wearing it above. The Wilsons have the small pockets.

[Texan Scott]

I'm not playing with anyone, just asking serious questions, based on some photos and what we can piece together.

It is for these reasons that I started these threads. Sometimes what we see in photos does not always match the story, so why not dig a little? I think the old stock Raiders jackets may have been inspiration for the ToD? You don't have to believe me, but I want to put some theories out there as to why, possibly.

Let's play the storage notion? There were several jackets that were apparently made but few were used. Of those that were used, most all either ended up at the ranch or in the possession of the stunt men, so what you had left over in storage would have been the rejected jackets, proto and old stock from the 1st & 2nd iterations. Low yokes and little pockets. If and when Powell dragged that stuff out, this is all he would have had to work with.

[CM]

Tex, I think I'm nearly done as we are off on strange tangents now. You're asking about things that have been covered off already.

I'll leave with what I think we know:

Peter definitely made jackets for Raiders
Wilson definitely made jackets for Raiders
Neil Cooper probably made jackets for Raiders.

We know that the Peter's jackets and the Wilson appears on film.

The Coopers? Who knows? Maybe they are the jackets with the small pockets we see in glimpses that resemble the Cooper ToD jackets of some years later. US Wings advertises Neil Cooper as making Raiders jackets so he most likely did.

No one knows how or why these jackets were used on film except through studying screen captures which are problematic to say the least.

Given how faulty Deborah Nadoolman's memory appears to be on this subject it may well be that the prototype jacket was a Cooper not one of Peter's, hence the different yolk. But I ain't got no proof of this other than its different appearance.

Speculation about the film budget or what was in the minds of the costumer, director or producers is fairly pointless.

I've enjoyed this and will participate again if something new comes into this thread.

[Texan Scott]

The last point, the one you eluded to that you did not follow, is the notion of did they keep stuff after Raiders? If the movie was a success, they were going to make more, up to 5 according to GL in The Making of Raiders. Also, you are talking about a 3 year lag time, and people being involved in other projects besides Raiders in the interim. You would need old stock around, for recreation and consistency sake for continuity from film to film, to give to the contractor and say...I need 12 more of these, shirts, pants, or whatever. Jackets from the 3rd iteration, those actually used in film were taken already, confiscated by GL for the ranch and apparently by the stunt guys, so what you had remaining was the rejected stuff, proto and iterations jackets. Not the screen used. That is why I think ToD looked different from Raiders.

[Texan Scott]

Please disregard the first two jacket try on photos. This first series of 4 are connected, but I was after the TL Raiders stunt tandem. Notice the conspicuous upper left sleeve in these stills. It looks like TL used it in the truck drag, and features the low yoke. Ford may have used it in ToD, closing shots and at the time of LC, Vic appears to be wearing/in possession of the jacket.