Origins, the CS jacket....?

[Texan Scott]

I've taken some selected quotes in an attempt to get to the bottom of this little 'mystery'. Confession time, but I never was into the CS jacket as some were, primarily because it seemed an amalgamation, so it didn't really interest me as much as the RoLA & LC. The details of it must have slipped by, but I'd like to know what was the source of inspiration for the CS jacket? What did Tony use to make his copy? Was it the Smithsonian LC, the Keppler or possibly the LC fan jacket, as KT suggested? The supposed screen jacket on auction right now, made me curious, because of the double stitched shoulder seams and cowhide. Comments?

Here are some quotes that I hand picked to make a point....

I asked Tony about his in our first conversation and it was the jacket from the Smithsonian that Bernie was wanting used as a model. (I thought that jacket was a Raiders jacket but I learned on another thread that it's apparently an LC jacket).

So, if indeed the Smithsonian jacket is from LC.....then, yes Tony Nowak modeled his design after the screen-used LC jacket.

As Tony explained it, Bernie secured the jacket back from the Smithsonian and different vendors were invited to submit a jacket based on that design. Tony had been contacted about making Shia's jacket and saw the Indy jacket when he was meeting with Bernie. At that time, Bernie hadn't been satisfied with the other prototypes submitted and Tony said, "I can do that one for you, too."

Bernie said "The jacket is from the Smithsonian so I can't let you take it." Tony suggested that Bernie send his man along with the jacket to stay with it. He got the jacket in the afternoon and at midnight that night, the Indy IV prototype was done.

The next day, Bernie hung them side by side and said "This is what we want". And the the rest is history.

So, based on this, the Indy IV jacket is based on the LC-used jacket that has been in the Smithsonian since 1989.

The jacket they used to make the pattern for CS was definitely not the Smithsonian one.

Both the Crusade & Crystal Skull jackets were based on the same Lee Keppler/Flightsuits (Gibson & Barnes)-made "fan jacket" that Lee created. Cheers

ps- I'm sure that it will be in the new jacket write up soon.
When we were talking about it, he laughed and said "It took 30 cows to make 15 jackets....in fact, in the video with Bernie talking you can see several jackets hanging up. Which one of those is the "original" jacket?"

[CM]

Interesting Tex. I thought the CS jacket was a version of the famous archive jacket (held at Lucasfilm) the jacket Ford and Bernie preferred after trying a few on. This jacket was also used (as you write) to pattern the LC jacket.

The archive jacket has double seems in the shoulder and long pockets with triangular flaps like the CS screen used jacket and this is either a Lee Kepler Flightsuits made jacket or a Cooper made Disney copy. This was never definitively settled.

I have never heard before that the LC jacket was involved although obviously the snaps were a recurring item. The LC jacket has very different square pockets with enormous pocket flaps and scalloping.

I always thought the CS jacket looked like a US Wings jacket - originally patterned by Cooper.

Can't say this is accurate. But empirically I think the closeness of the CS to the look of those Coopers, including the double seam says a lot.

[Texan Scott]

As you mentioned, this wasn't definitively settled, was murky as I recall, so I thought to dig a little, but came to that conclusion as these posts above point out. It seemed as though people chose to believe and drew opinions, based on vendor lines in the sand, which led to stalemate. I do remember that HF had had some difficulty with finding the right fitting jacket in the past. But I'd still like to know the truth of it, if it is possible? It's hard to believe that they went after the Smithsonian, if possibly you had lots of jacket in the archives? Seems too much trouble for what its worth? Anyone have access to Riley and are they still making jackets? Flight Suits gave him a jacket did they not? Theory, but it seems more reasonable (than borrowing the jacket from the Smithsonian) that if he wore a FS jacket for years, he could have easily said, just make one like this? Anyway, it may be only one of those questions that Tony could have answered.

Yeah, the LC...? As you mentioned, the LC pockets are unique and I would think that if it was truly copied, then the pockets would have been as well?

After using lamb for the three others, then cow..?

The evidence is pointing to KT's assertion, since it was cow and double stitch, but would a jacket made for fans trump a made for screen jacket?

It would be interesting to get the real story here.

[Michaelson]

Honestly, this is a discussion that will lead to no concrete conclusions, even it you were able to talk directly to the actual participants, which several of us DID when the production was going on.

The players involved tend to tell the story based on what the current climate is, and how it could help them in what ever project they are/were currently involved with.

For example, Richard Swales told at least 2-3 different versions of how the Raiders hat came into being.

Deborah Nadoolman's stories and recollections have changed so many times, based on what ever book she has in press, who KNOWS what her actual participation entailed anymore.

The two examples above can easily be seen as just 'bad memory', but in Tony's case, he was a man who believed in the NDA (non disclosure agreement) to the absolute degree. He was, above all, a man of honor (at least in my experience with him), and if you wanted to believe the jacket was sourced from 'such and such' a place and asked him, his reply was usually 'maybe, but probably not.....' with a sly wink. Frustration!!!!!!!!

Anyone else connected with his product was glad to spin the story in any direction it profited them best, regardless of how it went. If you wanted to believe it was patterned off a suede Indy jacket found under a pile of sheep dip in upper Nepal, forgotten by the production crew of Temple of Doom, so be it. That was the source of the pattern. Didn't matter it was so convoluted a theory it didn't hold water, folks said 'yep, you got it! That's where Tony got the original jacket from to make the CS pattern.....' Once again, FRUSTRATION!!!!!

So, we can theorize (and have) about the origin of the CS jacket until the proverbial cows come home. There are just so many 'solid facts' we know about the jacket and how it came to be....as well as some of the requirements it had to meet before it was accepted for production use....but as to the original source, Tony took the truth with him to his grave, and that is an unfortunate truth.

Only Bernie Pollack knows the truth now, and he ain't talking.

I know what I was told by folks directly connected to the production at the time, but as time has passed by, even they are mum on the subject, so I won't repeat them now. They'll just be considered hearsay, so why bother?

Been there, done that, have the tee shirt, but still not sure if it's real (though the COA says it is. )

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

It also seems more likely, that instead of busting the Smithsonian out of jail...they had one delivered to the TN shop like possibly the Hero jacket (from Raiders)? Still not sure what they used as a template? Probably something showed up from the archives.

I don't think any LC was double stitched? All we can do is work with what we know.

I'd like to know too if the CS jacket was double stitched at the seams?

TN wasn't a freak about these things, so he would not have really known a Raiders jacket from a LC jacket at that time. It might have been difficult for him to know exactly what it was unless someone told him.

[Michaelson]

The double stitch may have also been something Tony added for added strength, regardless of the original source, as one absolute requirement was the jacket had to be able to take repeated 'wettings'.

That was why that particular heavy cowhide was used (as well as the cost. Bernie didn't want goatskin as it didn't drape to his liking for all the water shots), and beaver felt used for the hat.

Regard! M

[Texan Scott]

Another issue that I find interesting is that, in essence, the LC jacket more closely resembles the ToD jacket than the Raiders does? The pockets on the LC jacket are just larger versions of the ToD with the large flaps, etc. Also the lower yoke. About the only thing added is the snaps to the storm flap, which I understand was the Keppler addition. I get his reasoning there, as I like mine closed also.

Screen caps can be helpful concerning the double stitch. As you can see, it does appear that the CS had doubles....

[Kt Templar]

The double stitch was definitely on the jacket that vendors were shown to replicate. Certain elements, the double stitch on the shoulder, the pointy pockets, the zipper facings, the predistressed/antique surfaced cow leather. All are not on the LC jacket, but were on the 'copied from' jacket and also the Disney/Cooper.

Remember Peter was blasted by a 'certain person' for showing his prototype that has the double stitch shoulder at the time. He was right, no screen used jacket ever had the tramlines. But the one they were asked to copy did.

[Texan Scott]

...so its my understanding from what I have read that Burnie held up a jacket and said in effect, this is the one we want copied, and then TN went to work. Are you saying that the jacket TN copied was Peter's?

Do you have any photos of the proto? Is it still around in the barn, keepsake or something?

[CM]

I think Kt is saying the jacket was copied from a probable Cooper.

Somewhere (on one of my older laptops) I have a photo of Bernie Pollack (I think it is) wearing the archive jacket with the double seams - it's a lighter brown and has the long narrow cargo pockets.

One thing I do remember is that the CS Indy costume was designed and made to be real world tough. Better quality fabric for the shirt, beaver for the hat and tougher cow hide for the jacket.

To me it's ironic that this is the least believable costume of the 4 films. The jacket may well have been better for the real world but it was over sized (made Ford look slightly shrunken and therefor older) and the pre-distressed look looked awfully phony to my eye. They would have done better to simply go with production made Wings or Gibson in Barnes IMO.

I hear M's point about speculation but that is kind of the fun of this site. As long as we keep it nice and don't get into wars about our opinions (as so often happened in the old days) we should be good.

[Texan Scott]

So....I need for one of you guys to recount the story of how Peter was involved? I understand he flew to LA or the ranch etc., and submitted a proto, but for some reason it was rejected, or there were was a disagreement, or whatever? How then did Bernie and Ford choose the jacket? Was it from the archives, and at what point did Peter exit the process, obviously it must have been before the final proto was chosen? I'm pretty sure that if just Ford's current (2007 or so) measurements had been submitted, Peter and co. could have made several jackets and brought them to Bernie for use in the film. At some point in the process, Bernie rejected Peter's offering and then deferred to TN.

It would be interesting to know how Bernie and Ford chose the final proto,, if it was from the archives or how they arrived at the final?

You are right, CM. I remember the 'jacket wars' and some interesting discussions. Multiple pages of dialog and threads locked up, etc. Of course, we can do without the drama, but I would be interested to know how it came into being, a mystery that maybe we are getting closer to solving.

Imo, Ford's clothes did not fit him well in CS and always before, he had a tan and brown hair, but that is what age does to a fella'. The audience missed out on 20 years of every 3 or so, a new adventure..?

[CM]

I think the history is on COW if you look.

My understanding is as follow.

Archive jacket is chosen by production.

Various makers (over a period) are given the archive jacket to examine and some notes regarding further design requirements and time limits to put in their bid.

Amongst the requirements is something like - if you win the bid can you make 16 of them in X days and do them in a durable cowhide?

Peter was one who was given an opportunity to bid.

He didn't get the job because he (and this is where the story varies) either clashed with Bernie Pollack or Peter's jacket (and/or hide sample) didn't appeal to Bernie or Bernie preferred TN because TN was faster, easier to engage with and being in California (closer to production). Peter appears to have made a CS jacket for the bid and this pattern is available to the public - the jacket Peter still describes as a LC/CS - even thought they are very different??? His LC/CS still has the double seams and the wrong pockets (for an LC) as standard.

I suspect Bernie knew Tony and preferred dealing with him. Tony had already been given the job of making the Mutt jacket and was approached about the Indy jacket when Pollack was picking it up.

Tenders always work like this so it's not so interesting to me this part of it. The interesting bit is how they landed on the jacket pattern in the first place.

[Texan Scott]

KT? What is your story regarding Peter's involvement?

It would be interesting to know if Bernie had used TN in the past?

I assume that HF tried on several jackets and the one that fit best is the one he chose? In short, it seems likely he could have been fit instead of providence?

[Kt Templar]

There was a lot of stuff going on at the time, in addition the time lag with the UK physically and timezone wise didn't help.

I have seen one or two of the interaction emails and Tony really did seem to like Peter's submissions. Whether Bernie was blowing smoke or not I don't know.

In the end, as we know, the job went to Tony Nowak, c'est la vie.

[CM]

KT? What is your story regarding Peter's involvement?

It would be interesting to know if Bernie had used TN in the past?

I assume that HF tried on several jackets and the one that fit best is the one he chose? In short, it seems likely he could have been fit instead of providence?

The fit would be a part of it but meeting the specs, written and unwritten, are the key to winning a contract. The right shade of brown, the right weight, leather texture, correct stitching, the right lining, etc. All this plus a timely, pleasant service would be part of it too. The fact that you made the jacket for a previous film may not do much more for you than allow you to participate in the tender. It might even be held against you in as much as Bernie may have thought, "I want a jacket with very different qualities."


There was also a thank you letter from Bernie to Tony which he shared with this community that read "After several other disappointing attempts by other manufacturers…." Bernie talks about working with Tony in ironing out a few minor jacket details and having very exacting standards before giving Tony the job. This suggests that Tony ended up with the job because the others (along with Peter) were not up to Bernie's standard.

[Kt Templar]

Or more Hollywood smoke blowing....

[CM]

Always possible but I'm not so sure about the smoke blowing. There was no need for Bernie to talk about being disappointed in other manufacturers - this specific reference to a process suggests it's accurate to me. He also would have no reason to mention Tony coming in at the end of a disappointing tender process if it didn't reflect Tony's understanding of the chronology. In my view if smoke blowing was Bernie's prime concern he could easily have written a great thank you letter without mentioning the process at all.

[Texan Scott]

Its hard to believe that a vendor who had been making jackets since the 70's, specifically this type of jacket since the 80's, could NOT have made a suitable jacket? Of course, he could not bring his shop here, but maybe he could have flown a technician in, with tools. Undoubtedly, having a shop around LA was a real plus.

This time they were making most of the movie in the US and not around London. Still, I would have thought that you would try to find/keep as much of the original makers as possible? It would have been just as easy to call up Peter and order say, a dozen jackets with these specific measurements. Peter makes one and sends it out. Once you get the green light then the rest to follow. That would have been about as easy as looking around for a US based maker, who has never made the jacket before? It could have gone either way. In the end, undoubtedly being close was in his favor. Novapelle is an outstanding leather and surely could have fit the bill, virtually the same color.

[CM]

Tex, what is easy to understand is that Bernie did not choose Wested and did chose Nowak because he preferred the TN product. It's as simple as that.

From what I've seen of the Westeds and Nowaks, this probably happened because the Nowaks are less costumey and much more solidly built.

As I already wrote original makers do not count for much. The costume designer knows best and usually puts their own stamp on a costume. They modify the design and often the supplier. Hence different jackets and hats in each movie.

In our understanding of this process we need to set aside our own loyalties and venerations of particular makers and understand that movies are ruled by personalities and dollars and often random factors that do not respect the priorities of fans.

[Texan Scott]

And that is not where I was going with it at all. There is no vendor bias here.

[CM]

Bias is too strong a word Tex. What I was suggesting is that fan loyalty is an issue for COW in understanding the narrative. After all it was you who just presented Peter as the ideal contender with his experience and his Novapelle hide. I get it. MY bias (a loyalty to the behind the scenes story of Indy we've all helped put on COW) is that they would give the contract to Wested in CS because W was involved in the franchise since the start. But that's how a fan thinks. Get me?

Forget how many jackets Peter has made. That's fan thinking again. What matters is putting in a bid for a tender and pleasing the right guy who has his own ideas. Evidently Peter didn't please the right guy.

There can only be a few reasons why Wested didn't make it. 1) the Wested product didn't meet expectations (most likely) 2)Peter and Bernie had a clash (possible) 3)Peter was too expensive (unlikely) 4) Peter could't make 30 jackets fast enough (also unlikely). Can there by anything else?

Remember too that back when CS was being made Wested was having trouble reproducing accurate Raiders patterns. It wasn't really until the Nowak Raiders copy got about that we started seeing a range of closer copies from a bunch of suppliers.

Other than the thank you letter from Bernie to Tony - which we have no reason to doubt. This is the closest to evidence we'll ever get about the process that took place. I think this info is all I really need but I'd be delighted if anyone can furnish something more.

[Michaelson]

Gentlemen, let me tell you this has been one of the most thoughtful discussions held regarding a topic I've read in a very long time.

I've enjoyed it. Thank you!:

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

...or he was already leaning in another direction? He had every right to choose who he wanted. My take on it is, all things being equal, ie politics off the table, or any other thing we don't really know, it could have gone either way; but because Tony was basically local, and undoubtedly, by making the Terminator jackets and others, people in the industry would have pointed to him. And too, ultimately it comes down to your leather, thread and liner versus his, and there really is not much difference in Tony's cowhide and Peter's cowhide. I think KT mentioned that Peter's proto was double stitched as well.

Undoubtedly, like most any other industry, when it is all said and done, it really is a small world, and no doubt the same applies with Hollywood garment suppliers to film, especially leather, and undoubtedly, the wardrobe people each have their short lists of who they like to use?

Sometimes I'll take a certain point of view to flesh out a thought, but think of Peter, he really extended himself, by flying all the way out there, and then what do you do? Can't make so many jackets really fast? He was crippled out of the gate, so they deferred to someone local, and yeah, Bernie liked TN's work, and/or they got along better, who knows? That was the inside take at the time that Peter and Bernie did not get along, was some personality conflict, so he went looking elsewhere. If you are the lone representative and submit your product, and cant make modifications on the spot, then your hands are tied...wait! Let me fly back to London, I'll be back soon!

I'll just go to Todd's for a little while....

It's CM's fault, big dawg! Git 'em!!!

[CM]

Thanks Michaelson - it's been fun to tease this stuff out again.

I remember the excitement of Indy 4 in the making and wondering what the jacket would be like. I was certain it would be a Wested LC style again and was very surprised when I heard it as going to be a local (American) maker. I assumed then it would be Gibson and Barnes given that Harrison owned one already and they had had such a history with the Indy fans. Tony Nowak, until Indy, was unknown to many of us.

[Indiana Jeff]

In terms of source for the CS jacket, my best recollection (and I think is mentioned by Bernie in one of the DVD interviews) is he went to the LFL Archives and went through the rack of jackets there to pick one out as a starting point.

Its hard to believe that a vendor who had been making jackets since the 70's, specifically this type of jacket since the 80's, could NOT have made a suitable jacket?

Just to throw another thought in there...

in the interviews Bernie gave around CS he talks about putting his own mark on it while needing to keep the iconic look the same (bag over the jacket anyone? ). That being the case, Peter may have come in with too strong of an opinion of what the jacket should look like. Tony, being new to the Indy game, wouldn't have any preconceived notions. Whatever Bernie asked for, he would deliver. Bernie wanted this to be his Indy jacket so my guess is he didn't want any, "I've been making these jackets for decades, I know what to make."

Couple that with what we know about Bernie preferring to work with Steve in MS rather than Marc in Germany to make time zone communications easier and choosing Tony in LA makes it an even easier choice.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[CM]

Very well explained Jeff - kind of what I tired to say but your words are more articulate.

[Texan Scott]

So have we just about settled on the jacket proto being something from the archives, and possibly a made for fans type, LC jacket?

I guess we are back to this notion....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzTBEO6R2fY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(this would also have been the furthest removed from 'providence'.)

[Michaelson]

I, too, was puzzled why G&B wasn't a stronger contender, as the story from several sources have been the archive jacket pulled out was one of the Keppler Flightsuit's (G&B) versions that the CS jacket was based on. I even recall Tony referring to the sample jacket as a 'Keppler', which I didn't make the connection until ANOTHER person said it again in a different context.

I also heard from an inside reliable source, though, a sample WAS submitted, but it was decided G&B just didn't have time to do the turnaround on the number of jackets needed for production, and so pulled out of the race.

Good decision? Bad? Each person to their own opinion.

TOTALLY agree on the designer wanting to have their own hand on the final outcome rather than just duplicating previous work by another designer. It happened in the other 3 films, why not this one?

Regards! M

[whipwarrior]

Gawd, that commercial makes ME want to buy an 'authentic' Indiana Jones jacket! Oh, wait... I think I already have one of those.

[Tibor]

I had a jacket made of the leather Wested used in their prototype they submitted. It was far from "costumey"... In fact a wonderful, rugged cowhide that I think was lighter in color than Bernie wanted. Otherwise, great stuff and fantastic leather smell.

[whipwarrior]

Whoa! Waay to red for an Indy jacket!

[Tibor]

In person it wasn't so much red as a Carmel color. Really very nice, but I agree, too light a color.

[CM]

I recall one story about the Wested jacket submission for CS begin the wrong color - an orange/red that irritated Bernie. Until this shot I'd forgotten this. The Wested jackets I have seen are not particularly well made. Sure, the hide used is often pretty nice but compared to others they feel more costumey, certainly more so than than the Nowak and Gibson and Barnes.