RAIDERS fedora original ribbon

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:19 pm

This thread has nothing to discuss as the only people who have all the information about out ribbon is us. We know everything on how things broke down. This is not he to discus eat all based on what originally was started. Do anyone understand there is nothing to discuss. If there is t anything to discuss then why have the thread.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:23 pm

tedquinton wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
tedquinton wrote:As a relative newbie there is clearly a back story here, the allusions to which I do not understand ( calf skin jacket??? Pat er son???)

However surely a discussion of the Raiders ribbon is exactly the sort of thing this forum is for?

Personally I find this discussion informative and hopefully enlightening.

There is a lot of dirt behind all this. It would be but thats not what this is about by no means.
Ok, maybe I should just walk away. Clearly stuff going on I know nothing about that is inflammatory one way or another.

Sorry if I've inadvertently stirred up any ill feeling. Must admit to being intrigued. Perhaps someone could PM me so I know what exact Hornets nest I've disturbed. As at the moment I'm totally in the dark.

I meant no harm

I'm not in the least upset with you. Just wanted to let you know there is more going on besides what you are seeing.

Post by **Dalexs** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:27 pm

jlee562 wrote:LOL at accusations of "slander." Not withstanding the fact that slander refers to spoken words and "libel" refers to a written defamation...

Why is there always a lawyer in the crowd...

"Collectively known as defamation, libel and slander are civil wrongs that harm a reputation; decrease respect, regard, or confidence; or induce disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against an individual or entity."

Apologies for any inaccuracies in my previous statement.

Admins talk about protecting vendors from slander, I say bull.

My earlier warning was not directed at anyone in particular. But if the shoe fits...

Our collective job as administration is to protect everyone... fans, members, and vendors alike.

John, like I told you earlier, I'm here to keep the site running, and the conversations as civil as possible.

It's your job, especially as a vendor, to present yourself as professionally as possible.

So let me reiterate my warning to EVERYONE... Play Nice!

Dalexs

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:45 pm

How did you protect Tony,Riley and Peter?

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:54 pm

Who actually libeled you? You were the one making insinuations about Diego's product (e.g. "can't compete")

Let your work speak for itself, good sir.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:56 pm

I have no problem letting my work speak for itself but I'm not going to let this sneaky attacks happen anymore.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:01 pm

Not one thing was said about your hats in this thread John, not one.

I have no dog in the fight as to who has "the" ribbon. But pointing out, as Diego has, that the "proof" is not verifiable does not amount to an "attack" on you, Marc, Steve, or your hats. Certainly less so than telling someone that their hats "can't compete." Nobody is saying that you can't or shouldn't hold your cards to your chest. You can keep the secret of the ribbon until your grave for all I care. And if you think there's nothing to discuss, fair enough.

But don't try and shut down the discussion for everyone else.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:29 pm

jlee562 wrote:Not one thing was said about your hats in this thread John, not one.

I have no dog in the fight as to who has "the" ribbon. But pointing out, as Diego has, that the "proof" is not verifiable does not amount to an "attack" on you, Marc, Steve, or your hats. Certainly less so than telling someone that their hats "can't compete." Nobody is saying that you can't or shouldn't hold your cards to your chest. You can keep the secret of the ribbon until your grave for all I care. And if you think there's nothing to discuss, fair enough.

But don't try and shut down the discussion for everyone else.

There isn't anything to discuses because the information that Diego is talking about isn't out to the public to discuss.

As for the other comment. I was giving a example on how some hat makers work. They can't compete so they do sneaky stuff behind closed doors. This is another sneaky attack. Just because he writes not to debunk or insult doesn't mean he isn't doing it. If he really wanted to know the history that he wasn't here for he could have come to me and asked for it, that's not the route he took??? Why???? He doesn't really care.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:49 pm

John you have every right to not show your cards and talk about how you and Steve found the "full house" of sorts in the correct ribbon. The membership, vendor or not has the right to call your bluff, or enthusiastically ask for more details out if excitement. This exists in almost every business. Someone makes a claim and then refuses to verify it. People want to know. You don't have to oblige. But don't be surprised when people furrow their brows at the answers you give, especially when they are rife with attitude and defensiveness. This thread is not an attack on you. Perhaps due to previous circumstances you feel attacked but I think you painted yourself in this corner for no reason. We are all enthusiastic fans here. Isn't the search for a lost item the very spirit of the movies? Try to understand where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

fifthchamber · Post by **fifthchamber** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:52 pm

Well, I'd be interested in hearing more about why you know it's the "original" as well.....I don't especially mind either way...The hats you make, and Steve makes, are lovely, and the ribbon is indeed, as close as I can see to what I see on screen...But the "original" claim is an interesting one, and I'd like to see what confirms that to you, John...If it's not too much to ask?

I'd seen the post from Marc, and was always interested in why he went from his own personal belief in the ribbon, to being 100% sure about the fabric being used...But that small step was missed out, and I'd be very interested in hearing the story! As well as the tests you made in the laboratory? Those sound interesting too!

People don't care about things like this....I know Diego has said he was interested in the hat because of the "original" claim, but that, I suspect, IS his "vendor" shoes being on, and him trying to show that you'd have less clients if you didn't have the "original"......That's silly, of course, and we all know it.......But I can see what annoys you about that...And his pursuit of you, here and on other forums is also rather clear......

But the question, at it's heart, is a good one that would be great to have an answer on...And I'd love to read about that....If it's at all possible.....

No need for either side to attack the claims...But I'd like to see that part of the history of AB and Penman's hats explained! It's a cool bit of hatting history!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:08 pm

ChrisMD wrote:John you have every right to not show your cards and talk about how you and Steve found the "full house" of sorts in the correct ribbon. The membership, vendor or not has the right to call your bluff, or enthusiastically ask for more details out if excitement. This exists in almost every business. Someone makes a claim and then refuses to verify it. People want to know. You don't have to oblige. But don't be surprised when people furrow their brows at the answers you give, especially when they are rife with attitude and defensiveness. This thread is not an attack on you. Perhaps due to previous circumstances you feel attacked but I think you painted yourself in this corner for no reason. We are all enthusiastic fans here. Isn't the search for a lost item the very spirit of the movies? Try to understand where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This was not brought up out of excitement or enthusiastically from a fan. You don't know the BS behind all this.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:11 pm

BendingOak wrote:
ChrisMD wrote:John you have every right to not show your cards and talk about how you and Steve found the "full house" of sorts in the correct ribbon. The membership, vendor or not has the right to call your bluff, or enthusiastically ask for more details out if excitement. This exists in almost every business. Someone makes a claim and then refuses to verify it. People want to know. You don't have to oblige. But don't be surprised when people furrow their brows at the answers you give, especially when they are rife with attitude and defensiveness. This thread is not an attack on you. Perhaps due to previous circumstances you feel attacked but I think you painted yourself in this corner for no reason. We are all enthusiastic fans here. Isn't the search for a lost item the very spirit of the movies? Try to understand where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This was not brought up out of excitement or enthusiastically from a fan. You don't know the BS behind all this.

Actually John I do. And that is beside the point. I think you are taking it way too personally. Some people really care about where it came from and want concrete proof instead of a take my word for it type story. Me? I could care less. If my hat looks like it does in the movie I am a happy camper. Wont sway me one way or the other.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:17 pm

fifthchamber wrote:Well, I'd be interested in hearing more about why you know it's the "original" as well.....I don't especially mind either way...The hats you make, and Steve makes, are lovely, and the ribbon is indeed, as close as I can see to what I see on screen...But the "original" claim is an interesting one, and I'd like to see what confirms that to you, John...If it's not too much to ask?

I'd seen the post from Marc, and was always interested in why he went from his own personal belief in the ribbon, to being 100% sure about the fabric being used...But that small step was missed out, and I'd be very interested in hearing the story! As well as the tests you made in the laboratory? Those sound interesting too!

People don't care about things like this....I know Diego has said he was interested in the hat because of the "original" claim, but that, I suspect, IS his "vendor" shoes being on, and him trying to show that you'd have less clients if you didn't have the "original"......That's silly, of course, and we all know it.......But I can see what annoys you about that...And his pursuit of you, here and on other forums is also rather clear......

But the question, at it's heart, is a good one that would be great to have an answer on...And I'd love to read about that....If it's at all possible.....

No need for either side to attack the claims...But I'd like to see that part of the history of AB and Penman's hats explained! It's a cool bit of hatting history!

That ship has sailed. If someone wants to know how things went down and what I can share. They are more then welcome to ask me but will not share it here.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:18 pm

ChrisMD wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
ChrisMD wrote:John you have every right to not show your cards and talk about how you and Steve found the "full house" of sorts in the correct ribbon. The membership, vendor or not has the right to call your bluff, or enthusiastically ask for more details out if excitement. This exists in almost every business. Someone makes a claim and then refuses to verify it. People want to know. You don't have to oblige. But don't be surprised when people furrow their brows at the answers you give, especially when they are rife with attitude and defensiveness. This thread is not an attack on you. Perhaps due to previous circumstances you feel attacked but I think you painted yourself in this corner for no reason. We are all enthusiastic fans here. Isn't the search for a lost item the very spirit of the movies? Try to understand where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This was not brought up out of excitement or enthusiastically from a fan. You don't know the BS behind all this.
Actually John I do. And that is beside the point. I think you are taking it way too personally. Some people really care about where it came from and want concrete proof instead of a take my word for it type story. Me? I could care less. If my hat looks like it does in the movie I am a happy camper. Wont sway me one way or the other.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Like I stated many times. I can't provide proof because it would reveal the source and that guys and dolls is what Deigo and others work off of.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:21 pm

That is the kind of answer that makes the general membership (who actually care) very skeptical. But, if that is how you want to answer then you have every right to do so. Just trying to help you see where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

fifthchamber · Post by **fifthchamber** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:21 pm

BendingOak wrote:
fifthchamber wrote:Well, I'd be interested in hearing more about why you know it's the "original" as well.....I don't especially mind either way...The hats you make, and Steve makes, are lovely, and the ribbon is indeed, as close as I can see to what I see on screen...But the "original" claim is an interesting one, and I'd like to see what confirms that to you, John...If it's not too much to ask?

I'd seen the post from Marc, and was always interested in why he went from his own personal belief in the ribbon, to being 100% sure about the fabric being used...But that small step was missed out, and I'd be very interested in hearing the story! As well as the tests you made in the laboratory? Those sound interesting too!

People don't care about things like this....I know Diego has said he was interested in the hat because of the "original" claim, but that, I suspect, IS his "vendor" shoes being on, and him trying to show that you'd have less clients if you didn't have the "original"......That's silly, of course, and we all know it.......But I can see what annoys you about that...And his pursuit of you, here and on other forums is also rather clear......

But the question, at it's heart, is a good one that would be great to have an answer on...And I'd love to read about that....If it's at all possible.....

No need for either side to attack the claims...But I'd like to see that part of the history of AB and Penman's hats explained! It's a cool bit of hatting history!

That ship has sailed. If someone wants to know how things went down and what I can share. They are more then welcome to ask me but will not share it here.

That's entirely fair enough......

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:34 pm

ChrisMD wrote:That is the kind of answer that makes the general membership (who actually care) very skeptical. But, if that is how you want to answer then you have every right to do so. Just trying to help you see where everyone is coming from.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

how I want to answer the question. I really don't have a choice. Why would I share something like this??? As a fan, I want to lay everything out for everyone to see but guess what. I can't, I'm in this not as a hobby but as a living. I have to put my son though school. I'm not a part time hat maker or someone doing this part time for fun. I don't have a day job to fall back on. This is it for me. I owe no one a explanation. Anyone can choice to believe it is the ribbon or not. That it matters to them or not. There are many companies that make statements that they have sourced the original materials or fabrics or factory.

I don't have a problem when a potential customer ask. How do you know its the same ribbon manufacturer. If the answer i give them is good for them or not is up to them. I do have a problem with a vendor who sales Indy hats challenge it. Thats like me saying deigo prove to me that your felt is in fact 100% rabbit felt and not part nutria? It's wrong its dirty pool and I have had enough of it.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:48 pm

I can entirely see where you are coming from and will defend your right to answer how you see fit. But you must see the difference between saying prove to me your felt is rabbit and prove you habe the exact same 100% original ribbon. Apples to oranges. However I get where you are coming from. There is give and take. Give an answer like that be prepared to take flak. It is the nature of the beast. How you answer is more important than the actual answer.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:22 pm

One reaps what one sows.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:17 pm

John,

Understanding you are busy and managing your presence on forums is not your first priority, can you please take time to proof read your posts at least once before submitting? Often I have a difficult time understanding the point you are making due to the typos.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:22 am

MOD EDIT: Whereas this post had some merit in keeping focused on bigger issues in the world, it's tone and language are a violation of the site rules.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:17 am

I can draw Darth Vader with my eyes closed.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:11 am

BendingOak wrote:How did you protect Tony,Riley and Peter?

"Protection" doesn't mean fans can't ask questions. As an volunteer admin staff we try to keep threads on topic and make sure all members follow the site rules. That's the "protection" we provide.

Peter's claimed he used 'original patterns' and fans called him out on it. And then Wested's inability to produce jackets to the ordered specs that was criticized by customers.

Tony got attacked by the Wested fan crowd and given Tony was saying he was making jackets using measurements from an original ROLA hero jacket put his jackets under intense scrutiny by the fans. If a vendor is going to make claims, fans are going to call them on it.

Riley did himself in with fans. My own experience is an example, I had made contact with Tony shortly before he died about a Surrogates jacket. I thought that ship had sailed with his passing, but then Riley took over TNO. I contacted Riley and the price had doubled. And the communication with TNO went to pot after Riley took over.

How about all the 'protection' we as admins have provided Steve over these years. We've allowed Steve to remain not only a member, but with vendor status, even through the darkest times of zero communication and no hat deliveries. Plenty of members here have criticized the admin staff over that 'protection'.

Questions by members raised about sources of material are well within the boundaries of this site and in large part the reason for it.
The membership here knows you will never reveal your sources.
You know the Admins don't expect you to.
The membership here knows you feel attacked.
You yourself have said numerous times over numerous topics that you won't believe anyone's word on face value. You require proof. Same standard being applied here.
You claim to have something extra special.
Members are asking for something to verify your claims.
You don't have to provide anything.
The Admins don't have to stop members from asking as long as they do so within the rules of this site.

We do our best to apply the rules. Some members don't want to and face the consequences.
Some members don't want to and choose to leave on their own accord.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:54 am

Where was all that protection when _ said all kinds of nasty things about Tony, Riley, Peter and myself. Even threaten us and nothing was done. When he was finally caught it was all neatly deleted but I have all that nasty stuff saved away. Heck, you can't even type out the word _ Pat ter son.

Should I provide some screen grabs of the dirty deeds?

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:23 am

First off, reminder... (hence the word filter)
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Club Obi-Wan does not allow the talk of, posting for, or advertising of anything for banned or suspended members.

We feel that in some cases, tensions still remain high and eventually lead to arguments and/or flame wars.
Some actions taken by certain banned members have been deemed reprehensible by the administration of this board,
which also prompted this action.

So in order to avoid anything being said that may lead to suspensions of existing members, or worse, a threat of legal action, we no longer allow mention of banned or suspended members or even reference there-of.

The person you are referring to was not the only one saying things about those people.
As Jeff noted above, every one of the champions of the various vendors, including some of your own, have had their say in say in
many of those discussions.

As often as possible, when those comments/arguments were getting posted, the staff was VERY busy cleaning up the mess.
(And something some folks feel is done in an unjust manner...)

Unfortunately, staff is not present 24/7. So things can rage on for a number of hours before getting caught.
If a person took it to pm'ing... and we were notified of it, actions were taken.
Some of these actions may or may not have been visible, but they were in place.

If a person took to email or other social media outlets, it is outside our jurisdiction.

For us, it is a no win situation.
We bat cleanup on everyone's mess, we get called out for being to Orwellian...
We don't take action, we're accused of not protecting the masses.

The job is a delicate balance. Some folks will support it, some folks won't.
We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:29 am

Dalexs wrote: We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

I would much rather be able to speak my mind as to be censored all the time. Being shut down and made to hold in your opinion is what hurts more than speaking it..This site is really really bad about it..I come here and speak my mind a little once in a while and lucky everything i say dont get deleted..LIKE my POST UP ABOVE^^

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:38 am

Yes, and your post above is technically enough to have you thrown out of here for a bit.

It read like the ranting of a 15 year old on Facebook... It had absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

Most of us here are fairly intelligent adults, and try to act in such a way to reflect that.
Some don't. There are plenty of other places to do that.

Dalexs

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:56 am

Dalexs wrote:Yes, and your post above is technically enough to have you thrown out of here for a bit.

It read like the ranting of a 15 year old on Facebook... It had absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

Most of us here are fairly intelligent adults, and try to act in such a way to reflect that.
Some don't. There are plenty of other places to do that.

Dalexs

So my ranting was that of a 15 year old but yet grown men acting like making a hat is equivalent to that of the discovery of the mysteries of LIFE is ok? I spoke truth. Maybe you didnt take it that way.. I can see John or other hat makers wanting to keep their techniques a little to themselves..BUT telling someone where you buy something is nothing to really keep secret. IF you made the ribbon yourself OR had someone make your ribbon for you with YOUR very own special blend then OK maybe dont tell much..BUT its a store bought ribbon. Thats it..its nothing more than walking into walmart,grabbing some premade spool of ribbon and making one..ITS not a secret IF the ribbon is right there..NOW maybe im wrong and the "secret" ribbon is ONLY for Delk,Penman,and ABoverseas?? IF so then my bad..IF not then its no secret. THere is no magical troll locked up in a room spinning ribbon just for these guys.. As for kicking me out..well do what you want. This place is mostly for ranting crazed fanboys bragging about which piece of clothing OR made up fictional prop is best...which if you think about it..is quite funny..

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:03 am

Yes, you are way off. This ribbon is spun, made using the same materials of the very high quality vintage ribbon that many hat makers pay top dollars to find. It is , more then just a big find for Indy hats but it's a big find as it is like going back in time and buy brand new vintage ribbon.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:06 am

Dalexs wrote:First off, reminder... (hence the word filter)
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Club Obi-Wan does not allow the talk of, posting for, or advertising of anything for banned or suspended members.

We feel that in some cases, tensions still remain high and eventually lead to arguments and/or flame wars.
Some actions taken by certain banned members have been deemed reprehensible by the administration of this board,
which also prompted this action.

So in order to avoid anything being said that may lead to suspensions of existing members, or worse, a threat of legal action, we no longer allow mention of banned or suspended members or even reference there-of.
The person you are referring to was not the only one saying things about those people.
As Jeff noted above, every one of the champions of the various vendors, including some of your own, have had their say in say in
many of those discussions.

As often as possible, when those comments/arguments were getting posted, the staff was VERY busy cleaning up the mess.
(And something some folks feel is done in an unjust manner...)

Unfortunately, staff is not present 24/7. So things can rage on for a number of hours before getting caught.
If a person took it to pm'ing... and we were notified of it, actions were taken.
Some of these actions may or may not have been visible, but they were in place.

If a person took to email or other social media outlets, it is outside our jurisdiction.

For us, it is a no win situation.
We bat cleanup on everyone's mess, we get called out for being to Orwellian...
We don't take action, we're accused of not protecting the masses.

The job is a delicate balance. Some folks will support it, some folks won't.
We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. That went on for months. People who was told by that monster he was going to urinate on them, Beat them up, and all kinds of horrible things. Vendors and members a like and nothing was done about it. The admin owes members and vendors a apology for what went on.

Members have every right to question but one vendor to another is down right wrong.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:12 am

BendingOak wrote:
Dalexs wrote:First off, reminder... (hence the word filter)
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Club Obi-Wan does not allow the talk of, posting for, or advertising of anything for banned or suspended members.

We feel that in some cases, tensions still remain high and eventually lead to arguments and/or flame wars.
Some actions taken by certain banned members have been deemed reprehensible by the administration of this board,
which also prompted this action.

So in order to avoid anything being said that may lead to suspensions of existing members, or worse, a threat of legal action, we no longer allow mention of banned or suspended members or even reference there-of.
The person you are referring to was not the only one saying things about those people.
As Jeff noted above, every one of the champions of the various vendors, including some of your own, have had their say in say in
many of those discussions.

As often as possible, when those comments/arguments were getting posted, the staff was VERY busy cleaning up the mess.
(And something some folks feel is done in an unjust manner...)

Unfortunately, staff is not present 24/7. So things can rage on for a number of hours before getting caught.
If a person took it to pm'ing... and we were notified of it, actions were taken.
Some of these actions may or may not have been visible, but they were in place.

If a person took to email or other social media outlets, it is outside our jurisdiction.

For us, it is a no win situation.
We bat cleanup on everyone's mess, we get called out for being to Orwellian...
We don't take action, we're accused of not protecting the masses.

The job is a delicate balance. Some folks will support it, some folks won't.
We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. That went on for months. People who was told by that monster he was going to urinate on them, Beat them up, and all kinds of horrible things. Vendors and members a like and nothing was done about it. The admin owes members and vendors a apology for what went on.

Members have every right to question but one vendor to another is down right wrong.

John all this whining about unfairness and vendors being protected. Im curious who told you owning your own business would be easy, and there wouldn't be competition? Business is a cruel world. What you are seeing here isn't even remotely a reflection of the real world. I think you are overly paranoid in this case. Jeff spelled it out clear as day. I would concentrate on rereading his post.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:36 am

ChrisMD wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
Dalexs wrote:First off, reminder... (hence the word filter)
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Club Obi-Wan does not allow the talk of, posting for, or advertising of anything for banned or suspended members.

We feel that in some cases, tensions still remain high and eventually lead to arguments and/or flame wars.
Some actions taken by certain banned members have been deemed reprehensible by the administration of this board,
which also prompted this action.

So in order to avoid anything being said that may lead to suspensions of existing members, or worse, a threat of legal action, we no longer allow mention of banned or suspended members or even reference there-of.
The person you are referring to was not the only one saying things about those people.
As Jeff noted above, every one of the champions of the various vendors, including some of your own, have had their say in say in
many of those discussions.

As often as possible, when those comments/arguments were getting posted, the staff was VERY busy cleaning up the mess.
(And something some folks feel is done in an unjust manner...)

Unfortunately, staff is not present 24/7. So things can rage on for a number of hours before getting caught.
If a person took it to pm'ing... and we were notified of it, actions were taken.
Some of these actions may or may not have been visible, but they were in place.

If a person took to email or other social media outlets, it is outside our jurisdiction.

For us, it is a no win situation.
We bat cleanup on everyone's mess, we get called out for being to Orwellian...
We don't take action, we're accused of not protecting the masses.

The job is a delicate balance. Some folks will support it, some folks won't.
We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. That went on for months. People who was told by that monster he was going to urinate on them, Beat them up, and all kinds of horrible things. Vendors and members a like and nothing was done about it. The admin owes members and vendors a apology for what went on.

Members have every right to question but one vendor to another is down right wrong.
John all this whining about unfairness and vendors being protected. Im curious who told you owning your own business would be easy, and there wouldn't be competition? Business is a cruel world. What you are seeing here isn't even remotely a reflection of the real world. I think you are overly paranoid in this case. Jeff spelled it out clear as day. I would concentrate on rereading his post.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That cracks me up. That's your answer. Then I guess it's ok that I start slinging stuff about other vendors and admins.

I think you need to re-read the post in this thread. There is already a thread open on this matter. Asked and answered but I guess we need more then one thread on the subject.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:52 am

I got a great idea. Why not let the other thread stay open, let people discuss all they want because this has been discussed before , Asked and answered. I have no need to go back in there. Close this down so you don't have almost every admin/mod working on it and you guys can get to work on the main page like I was told on so many times.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:57 am

youngjedi71 wrote:
Dalexs wrote: We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs
I would much rather be able to speak my mind as to be censored all the time. Being shut down and made to hold in your opinion is what hurts more than speaking it..This site is really really bad about it..I come here and speak my mind a little once in a while and lucky everything i say dont get deleted..LIKE my POST UP ABOVE^^

We work to be a family friendly site. I would not want my kids reading what you wrote using the language and tone you did. It's unfortunate, because you made a legitimate point. Just very poorly worded.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:04 am

Johnny boy, we can't take you anywhere!

Customer choice will dictate the overall direction. John, you make fine hats, and as I understand it, you have to fight through back pain to do it. I know, from previous communication with you, that you take a high level of pride and workmanship with every hat you produce. The fireman has become a hatter.

Whether or not you have the 'authentic' ribbon is not going to sway me from buying a hat from you if I need one. At the very, very least, your ribbon looks very much like the one seen in film.

What amuses me about the hat, is that people don't attack the processes or the blocks or the felt, etc, they attack a small component. That is about the only thing about these hats that has any shade of uncertainty. Still, it looks much like the one on film. Trust me, I have received some crappy ribbon and bow work over the years, but John's and Diego' are not two of them.

Maybe, John, you have been exposed over the years by the dirty pool undercurrents of the hat world that most of us don't see, and if so, then maybe it would make anyone jaded. The main concern is to remain in good standing with your suppliers and with your customer orders, then the chips will fall where they may, in terms of supply and demand. People buy hats because they like your hats.

At some point, all involved have "to let it go" and not succumb this vortex of verbal 'ribbon divinity' that could so easily entangle, or pull you under. Rise above it, and maintain a high level of integrity. Ultimately, people receive hats that they really like and are proud of, that attain a high level of handmade quality, and in the end that is ALL that really matters.

Let it go, bro! Unless we were doubling for the man tomorrow, it MIGHT be important.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:09 am

Texan Scott wrote:Johnny boy, we can't take you anywhere! Customer choice will dictate the overall direction. John, you make fine hats, and as I understand it, you have to fight through back pain to do it. I know, from pervious communication with you, that you take a high level of pride and workmanship with every hat you produce. The fireman has become a hatter.

Whether or not you have the 'authentic' ribbon is not going to sway me from buying a hat from you if I need one. At the very, very least, your ribbon looks very much like the one seen in film.

what amuses me about the hat, is that people don't attack the processes or the blocks or the felt, etc, they attack a small component. That is about the only thing about these hats that has any shade of uncertainty. Still, it looks much like the one on film. Trust me, I have received some crappy ribbon and bow work over the years, but John's and Diego' are not two of them.

Maybe, John, you have been exposed over the years by the dirty pool undercurrents of the hat world that most of us don't see, and if so, then maybe it would make anyone jaded. The main concern is to remain in good standing with your suppliers and with your customer orders, then the chips will fall where they may, in terms of supply and demand. People buy hats not because they like your hats.

At some point, all involved have "to let it go" and not succumb this vortex of verbal 'ribbon divinity' that could so easily entangle, or pull you under. Rise above it, and maintain a high level of integrity. Ultimately, people receive hats that they really like and are proud of, that attain a high level of handmade quality, and in the end that is ALL that really matters.

Let it go, bro! Unless we were doubling for the man tomorrow, it MIGHT be important.

Thank you Scott. Thanks for taking the time to say all that. Means a lot. Yes I have seen a lot of dirt and have taken stuff on the chin way too many times. Held my mouth shut for way to long trying to take the high road.

..... And yes, I might be.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:16 am

Let it go then. Let it go, everyone. It isn't worth it in the end.

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:19 am

Sung like princess Elsa of course.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:13 pm

BendingOak wrote:
ChrisMD wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
Dalexs wrote:First off, reminder... (hence the word filter)
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Club Obi-Wan does not allow the talk of, posting for, or advertising of anything for banned or suspended members.

We feel that in some cases, tensions still remain high and eventually lead to arguments and/or flame wars.
Some actions taken by certain banned members have been deemed reprehensible by the administration of this board,
which also prompted this action.

So in order to avoid anything being said that may lead to suspensions of existing members, or worse, a threat of legal action, we no longer allow mention of banned or suspended members or even reference there-of.
The person you are referring to was not the only one saying things about those people.
As Jeff noted above, every one of the champions of the various vendors, including some of your own, have had their say in say in
many of those discussions.

As often as possible, when those comments/arguments were getting posted, the staff was VERY busy cleaning up the mess.
(And something some folks feel is done in an unjust manner...)

Unfortunately, staff is not present 24/7. So things can rage on for a number of hours before getting caught.
If a person took it to pm'ing... and we were notified of it, actions were taken.
Some of these actions may or may not have been visible, but they were in place.

If a person took to email or other social media outlets, it is outside our jurisdiction.

For us, it is a no win situation.
We bat cleanup on everyone's mess, we get called out for being to Orwellian...
We don't take action, we're accused of not protecting the masses.

The job is a delicate balance. Some folks will support it, some folks won't.
We could just do what other forums do, and let it all just run rampant, OK corral style...
Then let's see how folks react...

Dalexs

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. That went on for months. People who was told by that monster he was going to urinate on them, Beat them up, and all kinds of horrible things. Vendors and members a like and nothing was done about it. The admin owes members and vendors a apology for what went on.

Members have every right to question but one vendor to another is down right wrong.
John all this whining about unfairness and vendors being protected. Im curious who told you owning your own business would be easy, and there wouldn't be competition? Business is a cruel world. What you are seeing here isn't even remotely a reflection of the real world. I think you are overly paranoid in this case. Jeff spelled it out clear as day. I would concentrate on rereading his post.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That cracks me up. That's your answer. Then I guess it's ok that I start slinging stuff about other vendors and admins.

I think you need to re-read the post in this thread. There is already a thread open on this matter. Asked and answered but I guess we need more then one thread on the subject.

Thanks for keeping it classy as always. You were told to keep the attitude in check. I would heed that advice. Especially if you plan to attract more customers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:57 pm

Talk about classy. Taking my lead from you.

See Scott. I tried to leave it alone but of course someone had to poke at the bear.

Rikimaru · Post by **Rikimaru** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:52 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:
BendingOak wrote:How did you protect Tony,Riley and Peter?
Riley did himself in with fans. My own experience is an example, I had made contact with Tony shortly before he died about a Surrogates jacket. I thought that ship had sailed with his passing, but then Riley took over TNO. I contacted Riley and the price had doubled. And the communication with TNO went to pot after Riley took over.

Indiana Jeff

Riley did not set himself in with the fans as the way your making it sound. He chose not to continue offering jackets to the fans. It was an extra part of the business, that was dropped in his lap, that he was not interested in.

I purchased two jackets from him and Riley extend the prices to me that Tony had charged me when I conducted business with him. Through the conversations I had with him he had mentioned that he would do that for a handful of people that had purchased from Tony but if they mentioned that they were coming from this forum that he would charge a higher price because he knew what had happened here with Tony and that he would not allow that to happen with him, hence the price difference.

ChrisMD wrote:
Thanks for keeping it classy as always. You were told to keep the attitude in check. I would heed that advice. Especially if you plan to attract more customers.

I'm sure John's business will be just fine despite the conversation in this forum.

Post by **Cajunkraut** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:59 pm

Take the high road John, and dont succumb to the inertia to pull you under and I would say the same to Diego.

Ultimately the status of a vendor is earned not spoken or written.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:09 pm

Alright. Enough already...

This thread has pretty much become a lost cause.
A few folks have tried to steer it back on track, to pretty much no avail.

The original subject matter was discussed, and answered, and beaten to death.
Not everyone is going to agree with the answers, but it's time get over it.

Move on. Someone mentioned Chris Pratt is the new IJ... go see what that's all about.

Dalexs

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:55 pm

Agreed. Chris Pratt is kind of growing on me. We all saw the trailer to Jurassic World. There was that part were he and the heroine where at a wreckage site and Chris picks up the tooth. That scene with him was very Indy for me. Before judging how he does as Indy, we should see how he does in Jurassic World first I think.
Just my $0.02

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:16 pm

Lately, some new and also active members started asking for some more info about the original Raiders block being found.
That reminds me about this thread, and my pursuit on true info about the Raiders ribbon.

So now, I'm just trying to give a definitive and final conclusion to this thread.

As I said since the beginning of this thread, I only wanted to know if there was a solid proof about the AB/Penman ribbon being the original Raiders one.

This year, the HJ reboot give to us many details of the original block and materials used on the Raiders movie hat.
Thanks to Jack@HJ we had the most reliable source to date (right from the HJ archives) about this iconic fedora.

Jack shared with us the name of the factory that provided to HJ the original Raiders ribbon for the movie hat.
And according to the HJ records, this factory (although now with a different name, but same address) continues to produce the very same ribbon in terms of color, texture and composition. They even keep using the same machines in the making!
This ribbon it's the one HJ puts on their Indy rebooted hats.

TEST

Having in hand:

1) HJ reboot Indy fedora
2) AB CS from Steve Delk
3) Raiders Penman

Results:

The ribbon on sample 1 differs in texture, color and thickness to the hats 2 and 3
Hats 2 and 3 clearly have the very same ribbon.

Conclusion:

AB/Penman ribbon it's not, and never was, the Raiders original ribbon.-

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:56 pm

It's not???
But-but..what about all those tests, lab work, analysis, paper trail someone used to bang on about to anyone who'd listen? Afterall he was comparing his ribbon to...what was he comparing it to btw?

Diego seriously I'd like to know more about your results when you have time.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:20 pm

anindyjones wrote: Diego seriously I'd like to know more about your results when you have time.

Not very much to add.
Anyone, having in hand both ribbons, can tell the difference.-

Screencapped · Post by **Screencapped** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm

Is the other ribbon 38mm like Brachers?

Jack@hatter · Post by **Jack@hatter** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:18 pm

There are lots of sources that will tell you that the ribbon was German made.
However "all" hatmaking was done out of Stockport uk at the time up until the 90s. All the hat manufacturers were consolidated on one site. Every one had there hats made there. Lock, christys and hj to name a few. However Dentons did all the high end ribbon finishing and supplying. Having been run by two elderly brothers who retired. When the hatting industry in the 90s went belly up Dentons lasted until the early zeros that is when brachers bought out the assets the machines and so on. And the name sold on independently to a hat importer, the old production manager at christys.

Good ribbon is mixed with rayon with an organic design content. Rayon replaced silk as the content when it became to expensive to mass manufacture. Rayon being the cheaper option.

Regards Jack.