RAIDERS fedora original ribbon

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:20 pm

First I want to clear something:
I'm not trying to debunk, or damage, or hurt nobody feelings. Or other vendors image.

Many threads were started (and closed) about this same topic.

Countless discussions on the color, texture, composition, etc.
Some see the ribbon very dark brown (almost black), others not so dark.

But that's not the kind of approach I intend with this topic.
I'm not going to post screencaps, or images.
That leads to no definite conclusion.

Some of the story:

Supposedly, by chance, Marc Kitter (AB dlx) found the original factory, that still produces the very same ribbon, with the same recipe in terms of materials and production method.
The very same way as in 1980. And, according to them, that factory was the supplier of the ribbon on the Raiders hats.

I wasn't around when the supposed original factory and the ribbon was found.
I did a forum search on the subject, and found some things.
But I think much more info can be shared here by the "oldest" members (oldest not for the years....but for the mileage on the forum....

), and throw some light to the subject.

I think we can have a good discussion thread, and some interesting dynamic data exchanges.

As an Indy fan, I'd like to know which were the basis where the assertion about having the true RAIDERS ribbon stands.-

Post by **Cajunkraut** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:25 pm

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... nal+ribbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... ers+ribbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:51 am

Cajunkraut wrote:

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... nal+ribbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... ers+ribbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Cajunkraut!
I already did a search.

Those threads are too "fresh" (2014 and 2015). No explanation there.
No prove or solid explanation on the Raiders ribbon there, only discussions on the color, texture, composition, etc.
You need to go further if you want some interesting info.

I know could be annoying to read long posts.
But this is one of those threads that worth reading in full.
This kind of threads enrich our hobby.

The difference between buying a true Raiders fedora replica, or be satisfied with a non accurate hat.

This is what I'm talking about:

Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 14:02
viewtopic.php?p=550104#p550104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jasonalun wrote: I'm just curious, Fedora, not questioning anyone's word or anything, but how do you guys KNOW that your ribbon is THE Raiders ribbon? It seems to me, reading all that I have on the forum archives, that no one to this day can say with 100% certainty exactly where the hat's felt came from, where the block that was used resides, or even exactly how it was made (slightly tweaked factory hat, or bespoke hat)! So how is it that we know exactly who made the ribbon? Again, not questioning anyone's veracity, just puzzled how that one thing could be known when just about everything else about the hat seems still shrouded in so much mystery...

Posted: 05 Mar 2009, 16:28
viewtopic.php?p=550171#p550171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Marc wrote:

Lemme answer this one.

When the manufacturer send a sample to me, he didn't know which width I was looking for. All he had hear from another supplier, is that I was DESPERATELY trying to source some super dark brown ribbon. So he send some 25mm ribbon to me with a note that he had heard about my search and if this would please me. When I opened the envelope with the sample, it looked plain black to me (just as the Raiders ribbon in certain scenes), but when compared directly to black ribbon, one could see that it's dark brown. It kinda changed color with different light conditions - something I had always assumed was due to the various hats used in Raiders, rather then this particular ribbon that does it by itself. So, while my jaw was still on the floor, I called the guy up to ask if they have it in 38mm as well. Answer: yes, how much would you like?! I told him that I'd get back to him, and then I rang up Steve 7:00am to scream into the phone that I had found the maker of the original Raiders ribbon. Now, if you know Steve, you'll know that he's not quite himself, before he had his coffee, but THIS made him awake within a fraqution of a second

So, we both ordered two rolls and the waiting began. It looked SPOT ON! Both compared to what we saw on screen as well as what we saw on vintage HJs. To us there was no question that this is IT.

Then, several years later, when Bernie called me up for the first time to do some interviewing on what we could offer and what we knew about the Indy Fedora, he asked me what ribbon we'd use (obviously he wasn't pleased with the alternatives he had seen elsewhere). I was pretty proud to tell him, that it would be the exact same as he had on the screen used hat there in front of him (he told me he had one in his hands to compare measurements). Bernie tested me buy asking if it's black and I told him that it's actually a very dark brown, round about 1 17/32" which made him laugh and we continued discussing specs. Bernie later on compared our ribbon to the one on the hero hat he had there and he was VERY positive about it, so asside from Steve and I already knowing what we had there, we got that reconfirmed directly from the horse mouth.

Regards,

Marc

1) According to this, the "confirmation" on the original source it's a Marc's deduction. Not a solid proof.

2) Then, another possible confirmation came from Bernie Pollack during the fedora search for CS. By the phone, inquired about the color of the ribbon AB use. We know Bernie was after a LC kind of fedora (for continuity issues).
So, most likely, Bernie had a LC screen-used fedora in hand when talked to Marc.
And we know the LC ribbon is very different from the Raiders one.

Maybe this doubts were already answered.
It would be great to have those here, so we can have everyhting clear.-

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:44 am

I can see where you are coming from, but to me so much of this is open to ones interpretation of "Original". Considering that these movies were made decades ago, even if you can confirm it's the same company, is the companies standard for manufacturing the same all these years later? Maybe, maybe not. Also you run into the dye lot problem when it comes to the term "original". If you can confirm that yes it is the same manufacturer, then how can you ever confirm that the "Exact" dye lot is the same now as it was decades ago? If you had rolls of the ribbon still in existence that came from that dye lot from decades ago, then you could rightly say it's the original Raiders ribbon. But would even a slight variation in the dye lot make it lose it's claim to be "original"? I don't know. To some it may and others it may not. That's where all this gets sticky and open to ones interpretation. So to be honest I don't think you will ever get a consensus on this.

People will either believe one thing or another. If you believe it and it's important to you, then buy it. If you don't believe it or if it's not that important and you can find something that so close you would have to send it to a lab to know the difference then maybe you should buy something else.

Sorry, I'm not much help but I think that's the bottom line. Good luck in your quest though.

fedoralover

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Thats exactly what I did. I have had ribbon sent to two different labs. The AB/ Penman ribbon is from the same manufacture. I was using this ribbon and at one point didn't like spending money on this ribbon. I didn't see the value so I did my own research and found connection to the manufacture to HJ. I send ribbon to have tested to see if I can replicate the ribbon cheaper. I could not, I couldn't have it replicated at all because at one point in time the industry changed over to new machines to bring in synthetics into the mix. Ribbon was spun a entire different way for this. The ribbon is a bigger find then just a Indy ribbon find. There is one guy with the old machines spinning ribbon the old way. meaning you are having ribbon spun the same way as the heavily desired "vintage ribbon" that so many custom hatter look for. Meaning you have vintage quality ribbon being made today and thats big. because when the old stuff runs out our quality will remain the same.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:41 pm

1) According to this, the "confirmation" on the original source it's a Marc's deduction. Not a solid proof.

2) Then, another possible confirmation came from Bernie Pollack during the fedora search for CS. By the phone, inquired about the color of the ribbon AB use. We know Bernie was after a LC kind of fedora (for continuity issues).
So, most likely, Bernie had a LC screen-used fedora in hand when talked to Marc.
And we know the LC ribbon is very different from the Raiders one.[/color]

Maybe this doubts were already answered.
It would be great to have those here, so we can have everyhting clear.-

You are assuming thats all the information that Marc has, You are assuming that it was a LC hat.

indiego Jones knows all this already. This same thread was beaten to death over at fortune and glory.

I tried to help him out by bringing him in on having some ribbon made that didn't cost as much as the AB/Penman ribbon. I wanted to launch a factory line of hats and thought with the two of us we could spilt the large amount needed to order. He could handle the amount so the deal fell though.

This is another attempt to debunk the ribbon. Can't compete, Debunk others. I have had this happen so many times. I have had other hat maker ( well known beloved hat makers) tell lies to my suppliers trying to block me from buying. I'm tired of it and if people don't like me firing back then too bad. The thing that bothers me is that I tried to help some of these people.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:35 pm

The thing is, I'm really not assuming any supposition.
I'm questioning the proof provided to support the story.

I've found no other threads having this kind of approach.
Only discussions on the color, texture, composition, etc. And screencaps analysis.
We know that leads to no conclusion.

According to Marc's post, the basis where the assertion about having the true ribbon, stands on conjectures/assumptions.

Conjectures/assumptions from the statement of the ribbon supplier (factory), about having a 38 mm ribbon.
Just like Swales tell to Indy fans many years ago.

But there's a fact: the AB ribbon is 39 mm. Not 38.

Then, when Marc and Steve received the 1st rolls, they found it was a very deep dark brown ribbon.
And assumed that "must be the ribbon"...because that way looked on screen! (screencap analysis !)

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:59 pm

Read my post again. Steve and Matcs posting is not the entire thing. You are not going to get the proof I have or what Marc and Steve have. To do so would be to set a beacon to the manufacture and that isn't going to happen.

You know this already. I know what your doing and I'm not going to just sit back and not challenge it.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:06 pm

Guys, I cant see this line of discussion leading to anything constructive, for either one of yoy or for members. Use the ribbon you use and let sleeping dogs lay.

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:27 pm

John, don't worry, I'm not trying to get the source of the ribbon.
Even if I found the factory, I won't buy any of that ribbon.
Because, IMO, according to my direct studies on vintage HJ ribbons and the AB one, it isn't the Raiders original ribbon.

Thanks Tex for your words.

I was waiting for new inputs.
Maybe someone had more info about the story, that back-up the finding.
Perhaps some of the older members.

A friend sent me an e-mail about this thread.
He put into words a very good explanation on it.

He said, this whole story about having the original ribbon is like religion.
Those who believe in it, won't change their faith, for any questioning made.
The ones who don't believe in it, will need to see a miracle to embrace the idea.

However, I wonder why, in all these years of hobby, not even 1 hat from HJ (or any other brand from the Raiders era) collected by fans, had the AB ribbon. ?¿?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:01 pm

Thats not what you told me in a e-mail indiego Jones. You said you were 97% sure it is in fact the same ribbon. My question to you is, When did you lie? Then or now?

Mine has nothing to do with believing, it's about having facts which I'm not sharing with anyone. Let the buyer make up there own mine. I know where most will fall.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:20 pm

Indiego Jones wrote:
Conjectures/assumptions from the statement of the ribbon supplier (factory), about having a 38 mm ribbon.
Just like Swales tell to Indy fans many years ago.

But there's a fact: the AB ribbon is 39 mm. Not 38.

This is intersting, What size ribbon do you put on your hats?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:25 pm

My opinion is that I believe, much like the rest of the costume, LFL outsourced through B&N, receiving an exclusive contract, and B&N sub-contracted the work out to various makers around the London area, Peter & HJ just being two of them. As to where the ribbon actually came from, I don't know? Swales must have used it in his shop, was already on hand when he made the hat or hats. It was either made somewhere around London or imported, there are only two possibilities.

Beyond that, I am happy with bow work that is shaped correctly and ribbon that is not purple!

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:38 pm

BendingOak wrote:Thats not what you told me in a e-mail indiego Jones. You said you were 97% sure it is in fact the same ribbon. My question to you is, When did you lie? Then or now?

Mine has nothing to do with believing, it's about having facts which I'm not sharing with anyone. Let the buyer make up there own mine. I know where most will fall.

If I remember correctly I've said I was 99% sure it was the same ribbon...
Well, there was a time when someone convinced me (and many others) that the Raiders jacket was made out of calfskin...
What can I tell...I tend to believe in people's word.
But after a little thinking, my questioning system begins to work...slow, but works.

Of course you know where most buyers will fall, John. So, nothing to worry about.-

Texan Scott wrote:My opinion is that I believe, much like the rest of the costume, LFL outsourced through B&N, receiving an exclusive contract, and B&N sub-contracted the work out to various makers around the London area, Peter & HJ just being two of them. As to where the ribbon actually came from, I don't know? Swales must have used it in his shop, was already on hand when he made the hat or hats. It was either made somewhere around London or imported, there are only two possibilities.

Beyond that, I am happy with bow work that is shaped correctly and ribbon that is not purple!

Tex, if it was available for the HJ workshop and other hatmakers, how come nobody get it on any HJ or other hats from that era?
Instead, I saw many ribbons, on hats from that era (HJ and others), totally different from the AB ribbon.-

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:46 pm

what was that...oil pulled calf...?

you mean, you don't think it IS, Diego?

Post by **Dalexs** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:31 pm

Boys and girls, (and you know who you all are...) this thread is starting to turn into a bar room brawl.

If you do not want this thread closed, please keep it civil and on track.

John, if you don't like the discussion, move on.
IJ, I read the thread at F&G, so I know where this thread is likely heading.

If you really want to discuss the merits, history, and potential sources of ribbon's past, present and future, by all means do so.

But DO NOT drag this into the gutter. Only warning.

Dalexs

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:47 pm

.....otherwise, your thread will get locked up tight as a tick.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:17 pm

This has nothing to do with a discussion at all. This is a sneak attack nothing more and I'm not going to take it from anyone.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:22 pm

BendingOak wrote:
Indiego Jones wrote:
Conjectures/assumptions from the statement of the ribbon supplier (factory), about having a 38 mm ribbon.
Just like Swales tell to Indy fans many years ago.

But there's a fact: the AB ribbon is 39 mm. Not 38.

This is intersting, What size ribbon do you put on your hats?

No answer?

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:38 pm

Interesting thread. I've never really thought about the ribbon this in depth. But Indiego I can see where you are coming from. There seems to be a lot of doubt, and also a lot of 100% confidence in here. But without proof I guess it is just marketing, at least as a mere fedora novice like me sees it. Either way, if it looks like it does in the movie even remotely, then I'm happy. I don't see it as a sneak attack, just someone asking for proof and like has been said if anyone in here doesn't enjoy this thread we have plenty of others.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:15 pm

It's a attack because he knows all this and bringing up again to try and debunk. Just by saying I don't mean to debunk anything doesn't mean that isn't his plan all along. The hat biz is as nasty as any biz. You knew all the stuff that goes on by some of the beloved hatter you would be in shock.

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:23 pm

Not sure why this forum is so uptight about debates? WHo cares if it gets a little heated. I mean if every thread follows the rules then every thread consists of the same boring mess thats been talked about for 10 years. Same with people posting about being unhappy with Delk..Sometimes things need to be said..AND people pay BIG money for these things so let them discuss these issues. I have an AB from Delk..Is it 100% accurate? Heck I dont know,but I bet not. I mean..Am I supposed to think I have the same exact ribbon used on HF's fedora way back in 08? I know I dont have the same felt nor liner..so why the ribbon? I have a Wested LC/CS off the rack jacket..Its sure as h^&l aint screen accurate..lol..BUT they market it as such..

Post by **Dalexs** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:49 pm

youngjedi71,

Heated debate is the nature of internet forums. We all know that.
But when it stoops to name calling, libel, and defamation of character, a line must be drawn. (

)

Opinions are like Uranus... everyone's got one.

Unfortunately, we all know these threads tend to go south very quickly.
If they simply stayed a heated debate, people would get bored and move on.

Dalexs

Jeremiah · Post by **Jeremiah** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:57 pm

Dalexs wrote:youngjedi71,

Heated debate is the nature of internet forums. We all know that.
But when it stoops to name calling, slander, and defamation of character, a line must be drawn.

Opinions are like Uranus... everyone's got one.

Unfortunately, these threads tend to go south very quickly.
If they simply stayed a heated debate, people would get bored and move on.

Dalexs

I wish this were true at the RPF.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:59 pm

Dalexs wrote:youngjedi71,

Heated debate is the nature of internet forums. We all know that.
But when it stoops to name calling, slander, and defamation of character, a line must be drawn.

Opinions are like Uranus... everyone's got one.

Unfortunately, these threads tend to go south very quickly.
If they simply stayed a heated debate, people would get bored and move on.

Dalexs

I'd like to add that we also pride ourselves on being one of the very few family/kid friendly forums on the big ole web. So we try to keep things pretty relaxed because if they are allowed to escalate into not nice words that would be bad for the young-ins . You can bet parents survey the sites their kids are on and we want to keep everyone around.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Glenville86 · Post by **Glenville86** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:10 am

I suppose the ribbon on the fedora or any part of the actual movie items could be very interesting to some folks. Especially for the vendors in direct competition for potential buyers. The smaller the market, the more fierce it can get.

I have an old AB Fortune and Glory I bought pre-owned, a couple AB Henry and a few Advintage Harrison fedoras. I personally have not bought a custom Indy hat from the folks who specialize in them. For me, the factory made hats are good quality and look excellent.

I am not a die hard fan enough to care about ribbon sourcing on what I purchase but it does make an interesting read.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:18 am

What form of empirical evidence would be satisfactory?

At some point in the chain, it's gotta break down somewhere. So much of the info here is conjecture based on screencaps.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:05 am

At this point, the only "fact" is that some hatters use some "trade secrets" that they are not willing to share and they, by no means, are required to as they feel that these are some of the perks that sets them apart from other vendors selling similar wares. And some are in that mindset that they want this 'proof' or they will never be convinced but the others could care less if they are convinced. But it becomes an issue when their product and business feels threatened. And we are watching the show as they both fight the good fight, some working to get 'the facts' and some working to protect their commodity and reputation.
I find it comical that the hat industry is portrayed as so dramatic (Housewives of Indygear) but I do believe it as I have seen people to wild and crazy things because they think they are the center of the universe. .
Its great that Diego probes and John keeps his Ace in the Hole.....and as long as no one resorts to foul language ......
"Let them fight!"

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:37 am

It's dirty pool. As IndyDiegojone has been though this. He does it in a disguise of a fan but really is a vendor trying to debunk another and I will continue to drag it out into the light. You don't know what some hat makers do to others behind closed doors.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:42 am

i don't think it is a good approach for either one or for potential customers, because of what it ultimately leads to. Neither one walks away from it looking "better" than the other. The worst thing that could happen is for two vendors to square off and start attacking each other. Time and again, ultimately that is what it leads to, and not a civil discussion, as the warnings in this thread point out, and as the locked threads of the past illustrate.

What I can say, is that I had much rather do business with a vendor who is honest and ethical, and who delivers on a high level, and I believe both do, rather than to stoop to attacking each other on the perceived merits and origins of an article. Is either one going to dissuade me from buying a hat from them because of the perceived source of the divinity of the ribbon? No. Both deliver a high level of quality.

Make your hats and leave the decisions to the customers. In the end, it is a small thing to get worked up about, and only leads to division, anyway. Why go there? Both of you produce a fine product. Why not leave it there and leave it to the customer?

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:05 am

BendingOak wrote:
Indiego Jones wrote:
Conjectures/assumptions from the statement of the ribbon supplier (factory), about having a 38 mm ribbon.
Just like Swales tell to Indy fans many years ago.

But there's a fact: the AB ribbon is 39 mm. Not 38.

This is intersting, What size ribbon do you put on your hats?

I'm sorry for the late reply.
Our ribbon is "almost" (a hair less) 39 mm width.-

I clarify, again, the purpose for this thread.
I'm not trying to debunk, or damage anyone's image.
In fact I think this is an opportunity to remind everyone why this is "the ribbon".

I'd like to share my personal experience, but not as a vendor, but as an Indy fan like the members in this forum.
Like BendingOak said, I was sure the AB ribbon was in fact the original Raiders ribbon.
The story was enough for me, and no further explanation was needed.
But, I didn't owned an AB hat by then.
Lucky me, I was able to finally get one. And my questionings began...

I started an obsessive study (like always) on the ribbon. All kind of testings; visual, tactile, etc.
And the conclusions were not satisfactory.
So, here we are.

The importance of the ribbon being "the original", is huge.
Coming from the same factory, with the same recipe and production method, as the one on the Raiders HERO hat.
This is decisive for many fans to buy or not a hat. IT WAS FOR ME!

As the author of this thread I commit myself to be respectful on my posts.
I don't want this thread to be closed.
If other members deliberately try to address the debate to nasty routes (with the only purpose of getting the thread closed), please I ask the moderators to delete the posts and keep the thread clean.-

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:17 am

[quote="Indiego Jones"
This is decisive for many fans to buy or not a hat.-[/quote]

Definition of the word "fan" comes from the root word "fanatic" which is

"enthusiast", "devotee" referring to persons showing more than ordinary support for, adherence to, or interest in a cause, point of view, or activity. Fanatic and zealot both suggest excessive or overweening devotion to a cause or belief. Fanatic further implies unbalanced or obsessive behavior: a wild-eyed fanatic."

So it's not out of the ordinary for Indy "FANS" to ponder these things with such fervor.

fedoralover

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:19 pm

Indiego, your status as a fan or member doesn't hold anymore once you get the vendor status. You been down this road already. Your argument is just speculation and like stated before, you been down this road already so the only reason to bing it up is in fact to try to put a stink on the AB/Penman ribbon. You can try and hide behind the fan or member label all you want but I know what you are doing and I'm never going to sit back and let you do it.

I'm not buying any of this. You put 39mm on your hats but was told that it was 38mm. Doesn't make sense to me. Even indygear main site states it's 39mm.

You were so sure the AB/Penman ribbon was it. 99% when I was helping you out. Deal doesn't go though and now you are so sure it isn't. Your pal Kurt attack me over at Fortune and glory and you bring that stuff here. Kurt just happens to support his pal (you). I smell a rat.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:28 pm

Texan Scott wrote:i don't think it is a good approach for either one or for potential customers, because of what it ultimately leads to. Neither one walks away from it looking "better" than the other. The worst thing that could happen is for two vendors to square off and start attacking each other. Time and again, ultimately that is what it leads to, and not a civil discussion, as the warnings in this thread point out, and as the locked threads of the past illustrate.

What I can say, is that I had much rather do business with a vendor who is honest and ethical, and who delivers on a high level, and I believe both do, rather than to stoop to attacking each other on the perceived merits and origins of an article. Is either one going to dissuade me from buying a hat from them because of the perceived source of the divinity of the ribbon? No. Both deliver a high level of quality.

Make your hats and leave the decisions to the customers. In the end, it is a small thing to get worked up about, and only leads to division, anyway. Why go there? Both of you produce a fine product. Why not leave it there and leave it to the customer?

No it's not good. Why should one vendor try in the guise of a fan try and debunk another's source. There's no respect from vendor to vendor. I'm sorry once you put on the status of vendor you no longer a fan.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:32 pm

First of all, I have no dogs in this fight, but I wanted to point out something based on simple logic. John, you state that once you become a vendor, "your status as a fan or member doesn't hold anymore once you get the vendor status" and also that "There's no respect from vendor to vendor... once you put on the status of vendor you are [sic] no longer a fan." By this, you are stating that you are not a fan, either, and that you have no respect for other vendors, too. If this is not true, than you are holding a double standard, which only further appears to prove the point. This was never true of Steve Delk, otherwise you and numerous other hatters would not be where you are now.

As for ribbon, my conversations with numerous hatters, seamstress/tailors, and vintage fabric specialists over the years have pointed out the biggest difference with hat ribbons nowadays isn't the machinery or how the ribbon is spun, but in the materials used to produce them. Case in point is finding cavalry twill that is produced like it was during WWII or even from the '80s. (I can attest to that based off the vintage pinks and repro trousers I own.) Personally, even if the original manufacturer of the ribbon was found, it is unlikely that the current production of ribbon will be a 1,000% match to the hats back then. And I'm okay with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:49 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote: This was never true of Steve Delk

So true, I really miss Steve posting here. I wish he would take the time to chime in now and then. Many of these type of conversations would be very different and more civil if he did.

fedoralover

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:08 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:First of all, I have no dogs in this fight, but I wanted to point out something based on simple logic. John, you state that once you become a vendor, "your status as a fan or member doesn't hold anymore once you get the vendor status" and also that "There's no respect from vendor to vendor... once you put on the status of vendor you are [sic] no longer a fan." By this, you are stating that you are not a fan, either, and that you have no respect for other vendors, too. If this is not true, than you are holding a double standard, which only further appears to prove the point. This was never true of Steve Delk, otherwise you and numerous other hatters would not be where you are now.

As for ribbon, my conversations with numerous hatters, seamstress/tailors, and vintage fabric specialists over the years have pointed out the biggest difference with hat ribbons nowadays isn't the machinery or how the ribbon is spun, but in the materials used to produce them. Case in point is finding cavalry twill that is produced like it was during WWII or even from the '80s. (I can attest to that based off the vintage pinks and repro trousers I own.) Personally, even if the original manufacturer of the ribbon was found, it is unlikely that the current production of ribbon will be a 1,000% match to the hats back then. And I'm okay with that.

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I don't know what you are smoking but it must be real good because I never said I was void of it. I know what this ribbon is. I have had it tested in two labs. The results don't lie. That fact is indiego Jones has already went down this road already. WHy would he bring it up again knowing he is going to hit a dead end.

one vendor challenging vendor products disguised as a fan is bull. Admins talk about protecting vendors from slander, I say bull.

I'm not Steve and I won't be treated this way. I won't stand for it.

talking about behavior, How about how Riley, Tony and Peter was treated here???? You let that monster Pat ter son walk all over them and did nothing. Where were you guys then?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:14 pm

fedoralover wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote: This was never true of Steve Delk
So true, I really miss Steve posting here. I wish he would take the time to chime in now and then. Many of these type of conversations would be very different and more civil if he did.

fedoralover

Steve would never be treated this way.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:36 pm

Because he continually helped any and everyone here who ever asked his advice with no thoughts of ever putting himself on a pedestal, continuously contributed to the dialog and discourse for the sake of finding truth, even if he discovered he was wrong in his initial thinking (and was gladly humbled by it), and because he embodied the definition of a true gentleman. Steve earned his reputation as such by his action and his words. It speaks for itself. That is what has so long gone missing from these dialogs. Little does it appear that there is possibility of working together for the sake of greater good anymore. It's been taken over by simplistic wizzing matches.

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fedoralover · Post by **fedoralover** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:52 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Because he continually helped any and everyone here who ever asked his advice with no thoughts of ever putting himself on a pedestal, continuously contributed to the dialog and discourse for the sake of finding truth, even if he discovered he was wrong in his initial thinking (and was gladly humbled by it), and because he embodied the definition of a true gentleman. Steve earned his reputation as such by his action and his words. It speaks for itself. That is what has so long gone missing from these dialogs. Little does it appear that there is possibility of working together for the sake of greater good anymore. It's been taken over by simplistic wizzing matches.

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Well said.

fedoralover

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:55 pm

Wait... because you sell things, you aren't a fan anymore? I'm pretty sure that MOST of the best vendors out there are also fans... that's why their stuff is so good: obsession. Just look at prop makers. I don't know about you... but once I start making things from somethings I almost HAVE to become a fan to get the amount of detail I require for myself. Sure, this doesn't happen with every single item/franchise, but for the most part, I find myself more and more interested in these various films and shows BECAUSE of my business.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:05 pm

Indy Magnoli wrote:Wait... because you sell things, you aren't a fan anymore? I'm pretty sure that MOST of the best vendors out there are also fans... that's why their stuff is so good: obsession. Just look at prop makers. I don't know about you... but once I start making things from somethings I almost HAVE to become a fan to get the amount of detail I require for myself. Sure, this doesn't happen with every single item/franchise, but for the most part, I find myself more and more interested in these various films and shows BECAUSE of my business.

You miss my point. I will always be a fan but what Indyiego is doing is a vendor not a fan.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:06 pm

fedoralover wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Because he continually helped any and everyone here who ever asked his advice with no thoughts of ever putting himself on a pedestal, continuously contributed to the dialog and discourse for the sake of finding truth, even if he discovered he was wrong in his initial thinking (and was gladly humbled by it), and because he embodied the definition of a true gentleman. Steve earned his reputation as such by his action and his words. It speaks for itself. That is what has so long gone missing from these dialogs. Little does it appear that there is possibility of working together for the sake of greater good anymore. It's been taken over by simplistic wizzing matches.

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Well said.

fedoralover

Yes, Steve paid his dues and more then one way and because I won't I get treated like this. Why not tell the entire story Rick?

Funny how you don't address what you guys did to Tony, Riley and Peter?

tedquinton · Post by **tedquinton** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:35 pm

As a relative newbie there is clearly a back story here, the allusions to which I do not understand ( calf skin jacket??? Pat er son???)

However surely a discussion of the Raiders ribbon is exactly the sort of thing this forum is for?

Personally I find this discussion informative and hopefully enlightening.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Wow, this is not going to end well.... And all because of a hat ribbon..... imagine what Harrison Ford would think about all this if he were sitting on Jimmy Fallon's couch and they pulled up this web site.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:42 pm

tedquinton wrote:As a relative newbie there is clearly a back story here, the allusions to which I do not understand ( calf skin jacket??? Pat er son???)

However surely a discussion of the Raiders ribbon is exactly the sort of thing this forum is for?

Personally I find this discussion informative and hopefully enlightening.

There is a lot of dirt behind all this. It would be but thats not what this is about by no means.

tedquinton · Post by **tedquinton** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:44 pm

BendingOak wrote:
tedquinton wrote:As a relative newbie there is clearly a back story here, the allusions to which I do not understand ( calf skin jacket??? Pat er son???)

However surely a discussion of the Raiders ribbon is exactly the sort of thing this forum is for?

Personally I find this discussion informative and hopefully enlightening.

There is a lot of dirt behind all this. It would be but thats not what this is about by no means.

Ok, maybe I should just walk away. Clearly stuff going on I know nothing about that is inflammatory one way or another.

Sorry if I've inadvertently stirred up any ill feeling. Must admit to being intrigued. Perhaps someone could PM me so I know what exact Hornets nest I've disturbed. As at the moment I'm totally in the dark.

I meant no harm

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:48 pm

LOL at accusations of "slander." Not withstanding the fact that slander refers to spoken words and "libel" refers to a written defamation; nothing Indiego has said here rises to that level. If anything, the person attacking someone else's character is John.

Just as in other discussions on felt color/thickness or whatever, of course John, Steve, Marc, Diego, et al, are all entitled to hold "trade secrets." I don't think anyone begrudges that.

But it's not unreasonable to point out that there is no empirical proof. I'm NOT making the case that John or Steve don't have the correct ribbon. But it's also true that what's been said IS supposition. I'm not privy to whatever "deal" that apparently went south between John and Diego which has manifested in this apparent ill will; but, surely it isn't worth all the animosity?

I have no reason to doubt John when he says he had the ribbon analyzed. But at the same time, John just saying doesn't really count as empirical proof (I mean this in the sense that a statement given on COW would not pass muster as an acceptable citation for say, an academic examination of the hat, or even something like Wikipedia). Not unless the results of said test are shown for all to see. Again: John is totally entitled to keep this information to himself. I don't begrudge that at all. But it's not some egregious violation of decorum to simply state that what has been said about the ribbon is conjecture and supposition.

The flip side of that is as I said above: this hobby is based almost entirely on the same kinds of conjecture and supposition from screencaps. I don't think 100% verifiable proof is possible to prove one way or another what is the actual ribbon seen on screen. I just don't think it's possible to have the documentation which proves that a specific bolt of ribbon from manufacturer X was used by Swales on the film hats.

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:02 pm

The thing is, why cant we bring this up to John without making the posts sound harsh? These posts are sounding a little bit heated(granted, that this topic has been brought up in the past) which is why these threads have been locked down by the Admins. All I request is that we bring this topic up calmly without making it sound heated.

Regards! -baddates1

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:14 pm

This topic was brought up for one reason and one reason only. Indiego has already been down this road and the only reason he is doing it again is to try and debunk the ribbon. This is what some hat makers do. So go to others suppliers and try and block other from supplies. It's a dirty biz and I'm tired of these tactics. Specially from someone I tried to help.

Like stated, there is no paper trail for him to find to prove or disprove anything because we Marc and myself keep it to is and only us. We don't make it public and reason should be clear.

You can talk about the ribbon all you want but this is not a fan asking for in formation out of put interest. This is a tactic to debunk.

If someone wanted to follow the trail. The thread would not have this tone to it.