Original Grey Clipper Fedora in Raiders of the lost Ark.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:41 pm

I am just curous. Does anyone know where the original is? Like one of the ones used in the movie lol.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:10 pm

My guess is its entirely gone. There's probably a very very very limited chance its in the lucasfilm archives, but with as much questions there are about the correct colour of this hat, I'd say no one's ever seen the original.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:15 pm

backstagejack wrote:My guess is its entirely gone. There's probably a very very very limited chance its in the lucasfilm archives, but with as much questions there are about the correct colour of this hat, I'd say no one's ever seen the original.

The color issue was put to rest with the Indy 4 movie. It most certainly was grey as was told by the big guys to mr. Steve Delk.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:42 pm

BendingOak wrote:
backstagejack wrote:My guess is its entirely gone. There's probably a very very very limited chance its in the lucasfilm archives, but with as much questions there are about the correct colour of this hat, I'd say no one's ever seen the original.

The color issue was put to rest with the Indy 4 movie. It most certainly was grey as was told by the big guys to mr. Steve Delk.

Which is awesome (I always automatically thought it was grey). So we have that answer atleast. But as to the original issue (hence the original colour issue) has anyone seen the original grey hat from raiders? Doesit still exist which I seriously doubt or is that lost to the world.....

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:49 am

With only the one being made, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it had disappeared into the depths of Western Costume after that shot was done in California, recycled into other film projects, or never seen again.

Regrads! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:11 am

backstagejack wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
backstagejack wrote:My guess is its entirely gone. There's probably a very very very limited chance its in the lucasfilm archives, but with as much questions there are about the correct colour of this hat, I'd say no one's ever seen the original.

The color issue was put to rest with the Indy 4 movie. It most certainly was grey as was told by the big guys to mr. Steve Delk.
Which is awesome (I always automatically thought it was grey). So we have that answer atleast. But as to the original issue (hence the original colour issue) has anyone seen the original grey hat from raiders? Doesit still exist which I seriously doubt or is that lost to the world.....

I'm not sure but someone who can grab screen grabs can do a little searching. I though I saw two nazi guys in the Cairo scene both wearing a grey hat.

I'll have to look up my long collection of emails from Steve but they were asking for a very specific grey color for Indys travel hat and settled on granite for Indy 4. This is the reason for the grey selection for the grey "Henry" from AB.

interbak · Post by **interbak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:37 am

When I order my "Seaplane grey' AB a while back Steve made it in what he called Oxford Grey. He said it was a dead ringer for the original movie hat color.

B

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:31 pm

interbak wrote:When I order my "Seaplane grey' AB a while back Steve made it in what he called Oxford Grey. He said it was a dead ringer for the original movie hat color.

B

Can you post a pic? because I know Steve's felter and they don't have a oxford grey. I know oxford grey was what the original hat was called.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:55 pm

I wish george would come on here and tell us the oroginal grey clipper was in the archives or something. He should sell it to me

interbak · Post by **interbak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Sure, I'll grab a shot when I get a chance. Steve had another name for it as well, maybe he said it's the same as Oxford. I'll have to dig through my old emails.

I'll get back to you, Brian

BendingOak wrote:
interbak wrote:When I order my "Seaplane grey' AB a while back Steve made it in what he called Oxford Grey. He said it was a dead ringer for the original movie hat color.

B

Can you post a pic? because I know Steve's felter and they don't have a oxford grey. I know oxford grey was what the original hat was called.

interbak · Post by **interbak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:15 pm

I went through some old emails and the other name Steve used for Oxford Grey was Char.
Oxford is easier to remember, and sounds classier than Char, which as far as I know is a northern fish, as in Arctic Char...

B

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:32 pm

interbak wrote:I went through some old emails and the other name Steve used for Oxford Grey was Char.
Oxford is easier to remember, and sounds classier than Char, which as far as I know is a northern fish, as in Arctic Char...

B

I think it must have been a typo or something. I think it's supposed to be charcoal, which would make sence as that he has three greys. Granite, steel and charcoal.

interbak · Post by **interbak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:25 pm

Could be charcoal, that would make sense. Here are a couple pics outside this afternoon. We had a nice clear bright day. The crease has relaxed as it's been sitting in its box for a while. Its brown CS older brother gets a lot more wear.

B

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:20 pm

yes, thats the charcoal that both Steve and I use.

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:34 pm

Dude, don't leave it in the box. Use it. Enjoy it. Is it just me or is that grey super dark? it sort of gets close to the ribbon color.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:47 am

What color is that ribbon?

interbak · Post by **interbak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:02 am

I know, it needs to get out on the town more often. The brown one is broken in, like an old friend, so it goes out most. The ribbon is very close to the felt color, just hint darker. I didn't pick the ribbon color, just let Steve put on what he figured was correct.

B

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:56 pm

So no one knows where the original one is?

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:11 pm

IndyJames wrote:So no one knows where the original one is?

I do! The last time I saw it, it was on Dr. Jone's head as he and Marion were leaving to get a drink. "You know -- a drink!"

, Sorry, couldn't resist this one

! W>

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:45 pm

WConly wrote:
IndyJames wrote:So no one knows where the original one is?
I do! The last time I saw it, it was on Dr. Jone's head as he and Marion were leaving to get a drink. "You know -- a drink!" , Sorry, couldn't resist this one ! W>

Oh wow

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:12 pm

IndyJames wrote:So no one knows where the original one is?

Nope. At the time it was just part of the wardrobe in a movie which no-one knew would be so popular.

There is a belief that the grey fedora was used by several different actors in different parts of the movie. Once filming concluded it was probably returned to wherever it came from, rented out to someone else, and eventually either lost or destroyed.

At any rate I've never heard of anyone claiming to possess it.

getoutofthelibrary · Post by **getoutofthelibrary** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:06 am

I ordered this custom Raiders from Peters Brothers a couple of years ago in steel grey...figured it was close enough for a custom I could get locally.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:52 am

Since he had a blue suit, it makes sense that it probably was gray. My guess is it was an HJ supplied by B&N..? I wasn't sure where we were with the notion that HF and SS went to HJ one day, off the cuff, and Swales hurriedly put a brown one together for them? Did he also make a gray one at that time, both the brown and gray at that meeting? Two of the main Hero hats? There has always been a mystique about the gray. I'd like to know, myself. Maybe a good jumping off point would be to list the facts about it and start there. What is concrete about the gray fedora, no pun intended?

I don't suppose it landed in the archives somewhere? IF Luke kept jackets and other pieces of the costume, props etc., it could have landed there? It very well could have made an appearance on the Streets of Cairo, and it looks like he was wearing the same blue suit and gray hat in the last scene on the steps/govt. meeting, which was filmed in California. There is no doubt about the ending scene, that hat is definitely gray, and possibly could have been the same one as used in the Clipper scene. My 2c. The sequence for filming was, France, England, Tunisia, Hawaii, CA. The ending scene was among the last filmed, and since they were back in CA....? Makes you wonder?

My gray Henry looks just like that one pictured above. The last run of gray Henry fedoras were darker, and as stated: charcoal gray. The "Oxford" gray nomenclature is a clue, that it probably originated from England, ie HJ.

Illinois James · Post by **Illinois James** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:01 pm

Yeah, Tex. The gray Henry always struck me as dead on for the clipper hat color. That's a keeper.

It's another elusive wardrobe item from the films, I guess. It did always strike me that the same hat could've been used by the german agent in Cairo, unbashed. Of course we'll likely never know. Someone may even have ruled that out already.

Wonder if that's a standard Fepsa color offering or if that was an Adventurebilt Deluxe exclusive? I'm assuming the Henry is Fepsa felt. I, sort of, posed that question in the Fepsa thread and it kinda fell between the cracks. I am curious about that, though.

Still interested in getting my 'hatucation'.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:33 pm

I think that part of muddling through the fog is to clear assumptions. For years, and for some reason, we seem to understand and have no problem believing that several brown fedoras were made, but the assumption is that only ONE gray fedora was made, and that it also landed on the head of the German agent? I find that kind of interesting. Was it by coincidence that both HF and the actor playing the agent had the same hat size, and that particular hat was at every stage of shooting? Of course, filler tape could have been used if smaller, but larger? Many assumptions here. Technically, the SoC scene was filmed before the clipper and meeting with the US agents. Yet, in the Soc scene, the quick take to the German agent on the street, you can see that the gray fedora's dents were pushed out, indicating that it was bashed before that scene. Its not leap to think it was pre-bashed, as each hat would have been.

Have a look, two different agents, but apparently the same hat...on tan suits...

(what does that mean, they didn't have suitable hats on hand-in wardrobe-to fit the needs.)

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:58 pm

Are we forgetting that Steve Delk got confirmation that in fact Indy wears a grey travel hat. The steel grey looks nice but I would have went with charcoal as it is closer to the original color grey.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Gray travel hat is a given. I think that due to the way the Clipper scene was lit and the color tweaks they made to film, these are the reasons some have thought it could have been brown. To me, the ending scene of HF on the steps in a blue suit and gray hat confirms it. Really, its about simple color schemes. Blue, black and gray are usually paired together, and earth tones are usually paired together: tan, brown, green, etc.

I am splitting hairs, or attempting to at least, about the gray hat or hats used in Raiders. The assumption has always been that only one was made, and if it was, then it appeared on 3 different actors in the movie, HF, and these two German agents on the SoC. Unless someone comes forward as the owner of the original gray travel hat used in Raiders, we may never know, I just find it interesting that one hat presumedly appeared on 3 different guys, and it certainly could have, but you also have the notion that all 3 had to wear roughly the same sized hat? Just look at the stills above. I've proven that 3 different guys wore a gray fedora.

If you go back to the lore about the Screen Used fedora, the story was that while on set, the stuntman reached into a stack and pulled out the main Hero and wore it, accidentally apparently, and that it was signed by HF and wound up in the stuntman's collection. Well, if that was the case, in other words, several brown hats were made, do we just assume one gray hat was made, and it was never lost or forgotten, but went with them throughout the rigorous shooting schedule? Could have been either way. Just an interesting little mystery to try to solve.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:16 pm

I doubt that the nazis grey hat and indys grey hat is the same. It's more likely they didn't want both hat looking the same so they just popes the creases out to make the hat look different.

There is no debate in wether or not that those hat Fird wore were grey or brown. They are grey confirmed by Lucas to Delk.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:18 am

I think the notion of a brown hat in the clipper scene is long since gone. My thought was to then try to discern if there was more than one gray hat, besides the clipper? The fact that 3 different actors wearing a gray fedora(s) points in the direction that there could have possibly been more than one gray lid. At least, it is possible, but we have no further proof, unless, as stated, someone out there owns one. Hard to prove.

I think you could be right about the SoC gray hat. It could be that this was the same gray hat that both actors (German agents) used on the SoC, and that with the actor wearing it on the street, they just simply popped out the dents. Even that is hard to prove conclusively, but it could be the case.

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:06 pm

This hat is probably the coolest in Raiders because of the possibility of never finding it, and because of it's small role. I like the large brim and color of it, my favorite version being the one in the Sea-plane. Is it just me or does the Nazi hat have the tight pinch pounced out? Looking at the picture, it has a center section that looks like it could be a tight pinch if it wasn't pounced.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:57 pm

Pounced out????

shade88 · Post by **shade88** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:27 pm

BendingOak wrote:Pounced out????

Could he mean that the hat was uncreased? He could be using the term pounced for taking out the crease and wearing the hat open crowned.

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:49 pm

Sorry, *crease popped out.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:08 pm

That's what I said in my post. Do people just skip by my post???

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:18 pm

BendingOak wrote:That's what I said in my post. Do people just skip by my post???

No, no... you clearly said

BendingOak wrote:the same so they just popes the creases out

COMPLETELY different thing!

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:36 pm

John, do we have to teach you these technical hat terms too?

Pounce, as in...the cat pounced out of the brush, and went after the ball. Don't make us come up there.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:37 pm

the darn iphone gets me every time.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:08 pm

ihaveacomputer and I still can't get it right.

still, what remains is the gray fedora or fedoras. 1, 2 or 3...? Take your pick. Choose wisely.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that two gray travel hats were made for HF, and that they may have used his spare for the two agents on the SoC? Either that, or HJ only made one and it was used by all three?

How many gray ones did Steve make for HF in CS? Since the gray ones see light duty, ie non-action scenes, they probably didn't have too many made?

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:39 pm

Steve told me he only made one grey for CS as he used my block....the one he has always called his "Michaelson" block as that's the block he always used to make my hats for years.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:20 pm

He told me he made 2

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:45 pm

Interesting. If one gray one was made for Raiders, then all three actors used it. But, if two gray ones were made for HF in Raiders, then the theory holds up, but it's somewhat of a leap. Different wardrobe mgr., different eras. Still, no way to know for sure. Just a theory. I seriously doubt that more than 2 gray ones were made in Raiders.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:13 am

Texan Scott wrote:Interesting. If one gray one was made for Raiders, then all three actors used it. But, if two gray ones were made for HF in Raiders, then the theory holds up, but it's somewhat of a leap. Different wardrobe mgr., different eras. Still, no way to know for sure. Just a theory. I seriously doubt that more than 2 gray ones were made in Raiders.

It's all guess work. I think it is more likely that there were more then one hat. Not likely they would be using one hat for two caters. doesn't really work like that.

Obi Sean Kenobi · Post by **Obi Sean Kenobi** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:09 am

There has to have been at least two grey fedoras made, as the two german agents appear on screen together with their hats on in the Marion chase scene, specifically when the monkey alerts them to Marion hiding in the basket.

I do find it plausible that the sea plane hat was repurposed for another actor. As previously pointed out, the german agents hat clearly carries the remains of a very tight pinch.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:28 am

Tundrarider wrote:Since Raiders was such a quick, down and dirty production, I doubt they put into this "issue" even a fraction of the thought that is going on here.

Remember, they were making it up as they went!

I'd imagine it went something like this:

SS: "I want Harrison in a fedora when he's in his suit boarding the clipper, but his fedoras look like @#$% with his suit! Help me out here, Deb!"

DNL: I've got some nice gray fedoras for the suited thugs in the Cairo scenes; let's try those out"

(Later) GL: "Wow, that hat looks great on him!! But now we can't use it for the thugs...they'll look too much like Indy!!!"

DNL: "Problem solved!!" as she quickly and expertly punches out the bash.

SS: "That's great!! We've already wasted precious minutes on this...let's roll!"

HF: (grumpily pulling the brim down on his hat) "Humph..it's about time!..."

Good shot but no. Steve was told Indy always had a grey for a travel hat. It was planned.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:38 am

Tundrarider wrote:Since Raiders was such a quick, down and dirty production, I doubt they put into this "issue" even a fraction of the thought that is going on here.

And there really is no "issue". It's just for fun and afterthought. No one is trying to hang their hats on anything, but people have raised these questions for years, so why not jump into it a little, and try to piece things together? Same with lingering questions on the HP. It's just the differences in personalities, I suppose.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:03 am

BendingOak wrote:He told me he made 2

He told me this while production was ongoing. Another must have been made after our discussion.

I'm a bit puzzled myself, as yes, folks have debated and discussed this one for year until Spielberg/Lucas were asked point blank, and they said they always planned for Jones to have a grey hat for travel to separate his brown fedora for 'action', and the grey for proper public travel.

It had nothing to do with lighting or anything else.

End of answer, That was the reason, plain and simple.

Not sure there any meat left at all on this bone. This one has been in the 'answered' category for years.

Regards! M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:38 am

Tundrarider wrote:"Good shot but no?"

Gee, thanks. Something was telling me to steer clear of this one. Next time I'll follow my gut.

Michael

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. As M has said, this has been answered for a while now. There is no need for speculation.

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:48 pm

Texan Scott wrote:Gray travel hat is a given. I think that due to the way the Clipper scene was lit and the color tweaks they made to film, these are the reasons some have thought it could have been brown. To me, the ending scene of HF on the steps in a blue suit and gray hat confirms it. Really, its about simple color schemes. Blue, black and gray are usually paired together, and earth tones are usually paired together: tan, brown, green, etc.

I am splitting hairs, or attempting to at least, about the gray hat or hats used in Raiders. The assumption has always been that only one was made, and if it was, then it appeared on 3 different actors in the movie, HF, and these two German agents on the SoC. Unless someone comes forward as the owner of the original gray travel hat used in Raiders, we may never know, I just find it interesting that one hat presumedly appeared on 3 different guys, and it certainly could have, but you also have the notion that all 3 had to wear roughly the same sized hat? Just look at the stills above. I've proven that 3 different guys wore a gray fedora.

If you go back to the lore about the Screen Used fedora, the story was that while on set, the stuntman reached into a stack and pulled out the main Hero and wore it, accidentally apparently, and that it was signed by HF and wound up in the stuntman's collection. Well, if that was the case, in other words, several brown hats were made, do we just assume one gray hat was made, and it was never lost or forgotten, but went with them throughout the rigorous shooting schedule? Could have been either way. Just an interesting little mystery to try to solve.

We must remember that the 3 Germans in that sequence, had many scenes where they were together, all wearing the grey hats like in the Marion Chase scenes. In this case, they all wouldn't have worn the same grey hat from Indy' s head, at the same time.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:37 pm

Very, very un likely that they used Fords travel hat for another actor. Much more likely they just took the creases out as not to look like the same hat.

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:47 pm

I'll bet my liver, that's not saying much !!, there were more than one grey travel hat made for Raiders !! If I had to bet, knowing what they had in production and to speaking to those " in the know ", there were probably at least 4 ( or more) grey fedora's made and then to speculate that a short german (maybe 5'4''-5'6'') and a tall german (6'-6'3'') would have the same hat size is a stretch. Even though Raiders was on a time schedule and budget I think it's a little ridiculous to think that three actors of different dimensions and periods during shooting would use one hat !! This wasn't a stage production out of someone's pocket, however, I can see where people would draw that conclusion as Ford's and the german's hats had the same turn ... but that could have been done at DNL direction.