G-8 or 440 jacket

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:49 pm

I know this is not strictly an Indy jacket, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Indy jacket wasn't it's parent. It was supposedly designed by Neil Cooper in the 80's and as far as I know, it is not a real Navy jacket. It's sort of a cross between an oil drillers jacket/work coat and a motorcycle jacket. Does anyone have one of these? It does have a cool 1930s vibe. Cockpit makes one and also US Authentic. Lost Worlds also made one. I have never seen one on anyone, so I am curious as to how long it is and where it hits in relation to the waist. Some have a center seam in the back and some don't. If anyone has one, could you please post some pics with it on? Many thanks!

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:51 pm

Here's the link to the U.S. Authentic version for reference:
http://www.flightjacket.com/g-8-jacket.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:54 pm

I have owned two from Flight Jackets and one from Lost Worlds! Great style! Great jacket and in some ways wish I had, at least one of them back, from time-to-time! Very functional jacket and nice fitting too! Good cross between an 'Indy-style' and an 'A2.' W>

CM · Post by CM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:32 am

Yeah, I understand it's a 1980's Cooper design too. I don't mind it but the elbow patches don't appeal to me. It may well have been an attempt at an Indy style jacket with different period features. I don't know if you were around during the early 1980's but after Raiders came out leather jackets were suddenly EVERYWHERE and many were Indy style, including some dreadful pre-distressed jobbies.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:12 am

I wonder how the quality of The Cockpit jackets compares to Flight Jacket? I have a Lost Worlds A-2 (Willis and Gieger), and it is top notch. Ah the 80's! I was in college when Raiders came out, so I saw it in the theater and fell under its spell. I opted for a Golden Bear A-2. My roommate had a knock-off from the original Banana Republic when it was just a catalog. Later on, I got an "official" hat. Looking back, that hat was dreadful compared to the original, but there was nothing to compare it to, or, to it. Those were the days!

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:58 am

Carolina Tom wrote:Here's the link to the U.S. Authentic version for reference:
http://www.flightjacket.com/g-8-jacket.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting jacket. I like all the design features except the seam that runs between the pockets at the front of the jacket. The seam on the back gives a nice half-belt look, but I find it distracting on the front.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:45 am

Yes, that bothered me too at first. I actually like to color of the Cockpit version, but what bothers me now is the seam running up the middle of the back of that one. For a 30s style avaitor's jacket, it's not bad though. It's just not an Indy.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:52 am

I have a G8 that was made in the 50's, and came out of dead stock from USW's about 8 years ago.

I have no clue who the original maker is as the original tag is gone and was replaced with a USW tag. Cowhide and heavy as all get-out.

It doesn't get much wear as I have others that fill the bill for heavy/cold winter wear, but it's a very well made jacket.

Regard! Michaelson

CM · Post by CM » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:51 pm

Michaelson wrote:I have a G8 that was made in the 50's, and came out of dead stock from USW's about 8 years ago.

I have no clue who the original maker is as the original tag is gone and was replaced with a USW tag. Cowhide and heavy as all get-out.

It doesn't get much wear as I have others that fill the bill for heavy/cold winter wear, but it's a very well made jacket.

Regard! Michaelson

1950's - that's interesting. Is it identical to the new ones?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:59 pm

Seems to be, but I can only go by the photos I've seen. Very well put together, but like I said, an EXTREMELY heavy weight cowhide jacket.

Probably a great jacket for a Chicago winter, but Tennessee? Nope.

Regard! Michaelson

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:26 pm

Wow! So it could have been a prototype! I guess Cooper didn't invent it in the 80s after all. Can you post a pic of you wearing it? Thanks so much for the info!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:42 pm

Heck, for all we know it might BE a Cooper, as it came out of USW dead stock, who owns Cooper. They're the ones who found 3 of these G8's buried in the back of old stock they got from Cooper dated from the '50's. I got one of the 3.

There was a company out of Pennsylvania that was supposed have been making these during the 50's that were well regarded, but darned if I can recall the name at the moment. Some folks have found these with other companies labels sewn OVER the old tag. Unfortunately mine didn't have an original tag, which had been removed, but a new USW's replacement installed before shipment.

I love THIS write up regarding the history. They claim it's been around since the 20's!

http://www.flightjacket.com/g-8-jacket.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regard! M

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:12 pm

Great information! Thank you Sir! I really like the Flight Jacket version better than the Cockpit version, because of the center back seam in the Cockpit one. But, I like the color of the Cockpit one, which is a darker brown. Hmmm, what to do?? Does yours have the center seam in the back? Since apparently this is not a "made up" jacket, I would like an "authentic" version, and doubt the original had the center back seam, but I am not sure. Thanks again for the great info!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:31 pm

It's been a while since I've pulled it out, but as I recall it does have a center seam.

Glad to help!

EDIT: Just took a quick look this morning. It does indeed have a center seam.

Regard! M

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:48 pm

Looks like a cross between a G-2 and the Indy.

CM · Post by CM » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:02 am

Carolina Tom wrote:Great information! Thank you Sir! I really like the Flight Jacket version better than the Cockpit version, because of the center back seam in the Cockpit one. But, I like the color of the Cockpit one, which is a darker brown. Hmmm, what to do?? Does yours have the center seam in the back? Since apparently this is not a "made up" jacket, I would like an "authentic" version, and doubt the original had the center back seam, but I am not sure. Thanks again for the great info!

Have you seen the Lost World's version?

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:11 am

Only in pictures. It has the one-piece back, but it is out of my price range. I have one of their A-2s that I bought before I got, er . . . married!

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:39 am

Does anyone own goat jackets from both Flight Jackets and The Cockpit? I'm just wondering which has the best overall workmanship and leather quality. You guys are the best! Who else would I ask this question to?

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:10 am

Well, I know this is premature, but I just jumped in with both feet and ordered one in seal brown goat from US Authentic. Hope I won't be disappointed!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:45 am

Hey, if you are, you can send it back.

Regard! M

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:13 pm

I think it is considered a custom order because I ordered it in seal brown, rather than stock medium brown. I checked with them today and the inside map pocket does come standard on this jacket, which is nice. I don't think I want the hand warmer pockets. The folks there seem very easy to work with. They said they would ship within 3 days of receiving my money order, even though it is a custom job. They are also waving the customary $100 fee they charge for custom orders, since all I am requesting is a color change. Michaelson, thanks for the intriguing information regarding the G-8! Some of what I have heard in the past is that the G-8's parent was actually the Indy jacket with those making it hoping to profit off of the popularity of the movie. However, especially in light of what you have said, and given the fact that you own an example from the 50's, like you, I think the design is much older. It seems more plausible that this was some sort of early prototype made by Cooper or someone trying to get a Navy contract sometime between WWI and WWII. Someone must have remembered the design and trotted it back out in the 80s after the movie came out. It seems implausible that the Indy jacket was designed by someone with no knowledge of the G-8 or similar jackets like the Navy M-444. In fact, the 440 or G-8 is essentially a non-shearling version of the 444. The Indy has much more in common with the G-8 and its brethren than the A-2 IMHO. Pretty intriguing stuff!

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:28 pm

Yeah, it's always been an enigma. Glad to help!

Regards! M

CM · Post by CM » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:15 pm

Carolina Tom wrote:I think it is considered a custom order because I ordered it in seal brown, rather than stock medium brown. I checked with them today and the inside map pocket does come standard on this jacket, which is nice. I don't think I want the hand warmer pockets. The folks there seem very easy to work with. They said they would ship within 3 days of receiving my money order, even though it is a custom job. They are also waving the customary $100 fee they charge for custom orders, since all I am requesting is a color change. Michaelson, thanks for the intriguing information regarding the G-8! Some of what I have heard in the past is that the G-8's parent was actually the Indy jacket with those making it hoping to profit off of the popularity of the movie. However, especially in light of what you have said, and given the fact that you own an example from the 50's, like you, I think the design is much older. It seems more plausible that this was some sort of early prototype made by Cooper or someone trying to get a Navy contract sometime between WWI and WWII. Someone must have remembered the design and trotted it back out in the 80s after the movie came out. It seems implausible that the Indy jacket was designed by someone with no knowledge of the G-8 or similar jackets like the Navy M-444. In fact, the 440 or G-8 is essentially a non-shearling version of the 444. The Indy has much more in common with the G-8 and its brethren than the A-2 IMHO. Pretty intriguing stuff!

Well in 30 years of looking at vintage leather jackets I have never seen a vintage G8 before so I guess they were pretty rare items. You still never see them around, but you do still find period half-belts, A2's and civilian flight jackets of a vast range. I can't imagine that this jacket pattern had any influence on the film jacket, given what we know about the movie jacket's design. But I can see how tempting it is to lump them together.

I'm not saying that there are no vintage G8's around just that they are extremely elusive.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Thanks CM! All good information for me, as I really don't know much about the development of the Indy jacket. I do remember reading somewhere that they looked at the A-2 as one of the design inspirations, but really, all I can see that they got from the A-2 are the pockets and wind flap. The straps and buckles on each side of the back look like they came straight off the Navy M-444 or a similar jacket. I don't think the G-8 was ever issued, hence it's rarity, but based on Michaelson's having one from the 50's, I think it's an old design. Maybe it goes back to the 444 and is just a warm weather prototype that never got made until after the war for the civilian market. Based on your experience not seeing any in the vintage arena. It's original manufacture must have been small in number and short-lived. We will probably never know, but it's fun to think about. I just think it is a really cool looking adventure jacket!

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:55 pm

WConly wrote:I have owned two from Flight Jackets and one from Lost Worlds! Great style! Great jacket and in some ways wish I had, at least one of them back, from time-to-time! Very functional jacket and nice fitting too! Good cross between an 'Indy-style' and an 'A2.' W>

You Sir, are a lucky man for having owned jackets from both these manufacturers! How did they compare in terms of leather quality, construction quality, fit, etc.? If you had to have one of them back, which would it be and why? Thanks

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:43 pm

Some material on the 440, from the book: "A-2 and G-1 Flight Jackets : ####-Bent for Leather".

It's one source, so grain of salt and all that...

Three instance of it in the book listed here: Click HERE for Google Book Info.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:01 pm

Awesome! Thanks Mountaineer!

I'll check it out!

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:10 pm

Very welcome.

It's, to me, one of those historical things where there's very little in records so anything anyone comes up with at this point will be poo-pooed as ret-conning by some.

There's a thread at Fedora Lounge on this jacket which does this very thing.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:10 pm

I have seen the thread over at the Lounge. In general, I think people like things tied up into nice, neat little packages, but History is not always that cut and dried. Whenever the conventional view is challenged, it is often dismissed as revisionist history, even in the face of newly uncovered information which is valid.

I wonder what the source was for the information in the ####-Bent For Leather book?

CM · Post by CM » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:26 am

The front of the G8 is pretty much a copy of the 1930's M-444 Navy jacket, with a leather collar and no shearling. It has the same triangular elbow patches too so I guess you can say the G8 jacket has its origins in the '30's. Probably also why it has the name 440 (a variation on the existing 444) But we already knew it was inspired by that period. The earliest G8 I can find so far have been those sold in the 1970's by Willis and Geiger. Other than Michaelson's jacket, I've yet to find other examples pre 1970.

I don't think anyone is trying to avoid the truth or will poo-poo reliable information when it comes. I'm sure we'd all like reliable background info on the origin of jacket. It will be there, we just need to find it.

In terms of the Fedora Lounge - I don't like or enjoy all of the opinions posted there but I can't think of a site that has a more scrupulous commitment to accurate, evidence based research on vintage clothing than F.L..

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:54 am

Amen to all CM! And thanks for the insight! I meant no disrespect to anyone, here or at the Lounge, so sorry about that

When I made that remark, I was thinking of an extremely well-researched biography by Tim Jeal that I recently read which challenges conventional views. Again, I sincerely apologize. The people here and at the Lounge are some of the smartest people I know, and I know everyone that I know in both places is open minded when it comes to new information that challenges conventional views. After reading what's out there on the Net, I think the conventional view there is that the jacket was made up in the 1980's to capitalize on the popularity of Raiders. Now, Michaelson has shared his information. This means that the design was not developed off the Indy jacket, but was already out there as early as the 50's and was reintroduced to the market after the popularity of the movie. I remember when these things first reappeared. They were marketed at that time as the model the movie jacket was made from, and boy did I want one! We also have the ####-Bent For Leather reference, which has been out there for some time. Obviously there is information out there that trumps this reference and a lot of people remain firmly convinced that the jacket is in fact made up. As all this is really new to me, does anyone have a link to the original Lounge thread where this is discussed? I am not an expert at all. I am actually totally ignorant on jacket history, as you have already seen. I don't wish to restart an argument or beat a dead horse on this, just seeking understanding. It is more curiosity on my part than anything else I guess, since I am now a future owner of a 440.

Thanks to all here for the intelligent discussion AND for the valuable information and insight.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:01 pm

This thread is being discussed on the Fedora Lounge:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... et-History" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:39 pm

Well, my jacket arrived from Shaol and it is beautiful! I could not be more pleased. The quality of the leather is fantastic! It is heavy for goatskin. It weighs 3.5 pounds and fits like a glove! When I put it on, it feels like a motorcycle jacket. In addition, US Authentic will customize the jacket to your specs for an extra 100 bucks. Cool deal!

CM · Post by CM » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:22 pm

Cool - photos? I don't think I've ever seen one being worn before.

Carolina Tom · Post by **Carolina Tom** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:46 pm

Thanks! I'm ashamed to say that I've never posted a picture before.

Is there a way to do it without using Photobucket? I was actually looking for a thread on how to do that here the other day.

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:52 pm

Carolina Tom wrote:Thanks! I'm ashamed to say that I've never posted a picture before. Is there a way to do it without using Photobucket? I was actually looking for a thread on how to do that here the other day.

Wish we could just upload from our PC like Facebook. Would be much better. *** having to upload to a picture site then link it..

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