Could Indy Have Worn an A2 in Raiders?

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:18 am

I know we love the movie jacket as it is (which is kind of like an A2 without knits or epaulettes).

But given that the famous A2 flying jacket was introduced in 1931 - could Indy not have worn one in 1936? - And with his vigorous lifestyle, he'd have worn the heck out of it in just a few years.

I know we often ponder a period accurate Indy - generally a half-belt (or in my case I've usually imagined an A1) but it wouldn't have been beyond the realm of possibility for Indy to wear an A2 in the movie. What do others think?

The movies Raiders is stylistically inspired by movies that use A2 style jackets - China and Secret of the Incas, spring to mind.

I also find it instructive that when you see the the 34 year old casting footage of actors like Selleck reading for Indy - they wear an A2 (and grey fedora) but let's not talk about the hat...

I understand the costume design process but, for all that, they could have gotten away with an A2 in the film, surely???

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:22 am

If I remember correctly from my jacket lore, one of the reasons the decision to move away from an A2 is the knitting caused problems with the gun belt and whip catching on the jacket.

So beyond an aesthetic choice, having a unknit bottom and the action vents are a practical choice for the character.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:47 am

Yes Jeff, thanks for reminding me about that, and this suggests the A2 was in the frame. They may well have used one if the costume whip/holster issues could be sorted in a different way, which I'm sure they could've been.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:26 am

The simple clean barrel cuffs are one of my favourite parts of the Indy jacket. Whenever I wear a jacket with knit cuffs I get that itchy polyester flashback to the 70s and 80s.

The twin waist vents are also a great feature that means I don't have a big elastic band around my waist/hips that keeps needing the Picard Manoeuvre.

But we could probably have had an A2, it would not have been as iconic as it is too generic. Strangely, A2's has a 70's feel to me. Maybe a lot of them were around back then from surplus.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:41 am

Somebody get to photoshopping!!

Seriously though, I always say a half belt is the historical choice, but honestly, it probably would be an A1 or A2. The half belt would have been the "working man's" jacket, whereas Indy was a "military man"...

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:28 am

If you want to see pictures of "Indy" wearing an A2, take a gander at Hanover Street. (Awful movie by the way

)

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:43 pm

The more you learn about the Indy Raiders jacket, the more you understand the clear lineage of A-2 to Indy. The epaulets on most A-2 contracts are built to sit forward of the shoulder seam to blend in rather than made over the seam. That places the shoulder seam back further on the shoulder, ala Indy. Then you take the shoulder yoke from the A-1 jacket and build the pleats down from there.

Considering the places he goes, avoiding the moth problem with wool knits as well as what wool knits get like when soaked in South American rivers and worn in 100 degree heat, Indy was way smarter about clothes than the A-2 guys.

ThatManFromRio · Post by **ThatManFromRio** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:03 pm

Tibor wrote:...as well as what wool knits get like when soaked in South American rivers and worn in 100 degree heat, Indy was way smarter about clothes than the A-2 guys.

...he was wearing wool trousers ...

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:57 pm

Nearly everyone was

Indiana Charles · Post by **Indiana Charles** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:48 am

I know WWII pilots used to cut them off as they used to get in the way.

The cuffs I mean not the trousers

- I.C.

ThatManFromRio · Post by **ThatManFromRio** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:06 am

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:51 pm

Practically, I'm not sure the A-2, A-1 or even the Indy jacket derivative would have been the best choice. Certainly leather was preferred for fly boys. If you have some exposure to extremely humid environments, organic material does not fare well. I'd defer to India or Berma, where khaki, woven cloth and other type material was much more practical and breathable, not to mention the straps getting caught or hung up on things. If you think about it that way Barranca's gear was much more practical, shredded though it was. Was the A-2 even available back then to civilians? Check out Hiram Bingham and other period explorers.

The A-2 cousin filled an idealistic notion for the character and rounded out a costume, borrowing from "Secret..." etc.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:45 pm

If I had to pick one garment to deal with spiders, truck dragging, hot weather, chilled evenings, etc, I'd be inclined to get a light-medium weight leather jacket. I like the protection, versatility, look, etc.

I think Indy didn't dress for one expected circumstance, but rather anything he might run into while globe-trotting. Sometimes your week starts in the Himalayas and you end up in Cairo.

Maybe a waxed cotton canvas would be good too, but they often look kinda goofy.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:46 pm

Texan Scott wrote: Was the A-2 even available back then to civilians? .

That's a question I've often wondered. The A-2 as we know it wasn't even around till 1930/31 ... how would Indy have even gotten hold of one.

My take on it was just like everything Indy wore... military inspired and custom made. Just like his shirts and pants, I reckon Indy saw an airman wearing the A-2 and liked it enough to have a replica made to his own specifications.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:59 pm

real world vs. costume piece. It just depends on pov and perspective. It looks cool, but I suspect Jock might have owned one before Indian Bones.

The whole leather jacket craze got started after the war, when ex-GI's began to wear them while riding their motorcycles. The Brando jacket, etc. was a derivative. Gailen may remember it as if it were yesterday? He's got boots older than you....

Better get some new boots, senor!

A bit more history on it....

Throughout the War, as the A-2's popularity grew, so too did the demand for it. Only air crewmen could obtain A-2 jackets through regular channels, although a few celebrated nonflying officers like Gens. MacArthur and Patton and Maj. Glenn Miller also procured and wore them. A small "cottage industry" soon appeared, especially in England, to make A-2-style jackets for GI's (including many airborne infantry troops) who otherwise couldn't get one. This was especially true after the Army stopped purchasing new leather jackets in mid-1943, and disappointed airmen were sent to war in the less desirable cloth jackets, or were unable to replace A-2's they had lost or damaged. As a result, some war-era jackets used by World War II airmen are clearly not true to original AAF specifications, though this makes them no less historic.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:08 pm

backstagejack wrote:
Texan Scott wrote: Was the A-2 even available back then to civilians? .
That's a question I've often wondered. The A-2 as we know it wasn't even around till 1930/31 ... how would Indy have even gotten hold of one.

TOH:

Well, if Indy can obtain rare artifacts in far flung locations, then an A2 would be easy.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:12 pm

Texan Scott wrote:real world vs. costume piece. It just depends on pov and perspective. It looks cool, but I suspect Jock might have owned one before Indian Bones.

The whole leather jacket craze got started after the war, when ex-GI's began to wear them while riding their motorcycles. The Brando jacket, etc. was a derivative. Gailen may remember it as if it were yesterday? He's got boots older than you.... Better get some new boots, senor!

A bit more history on it....

Throughout the War, as the A-2's popularity grew, so too did the demand for it. Only air crewmen could obtain A-2 jackets through regular channels, although a few celebrated nonflying officers like Gens. MacArthur and Patton and Maj. Glenn Miller also procured and wore them. A small "cottage industry" soon appeared, especially in England, to make A-2-style jackets for GI's (including many airborne infantry troops) who otherwise couldn't get one. This was especially true after the Army stopped purchasing new leather jackets in mid-1943, and disappointed airmen were sent to war in the less desirable cloth jackets, or were unable to replace A-2's they had lost or damaged. As a result, some war-era jackets used by World War II airmen are clearly not true to original AAF specifications, though this makes them no less historic.

Actually, leather was popular with working men before it went to war. That's how the army got to choosing leather - it performed well in vigorous activities. My dad who is 91 remembers large numbers of working men wearing A1 style civilian jackets in the 1930's.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:29 pm

Maybe leather jackets in general, but an A-2? I don't think it was available to civilians in 1936. At any rate, if someone wanted to bad enough you could spin a whole story about how Indy acquired one. If he can find the ark, etc., an A-2 would be a piece of cake Won it off a GI in a poker game, maybe? Tons of things you could say. Its a pov thing.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:13 am

Sorry Tex, not sure we're talking about the same thing. I was responding to your comment about the "whole leather craze taking off" after WW2 when I believe leather was big before then. Unless you were meaning the A2 when you said craze. It's all good.

Despite all that, I guess I've arrived at a point in this hobby where I realize that with a minor decision change in pre-production Indy could have worn an A2 in the film.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:02 am

I wouldn't have had any more problem with him wearing an A2 than I did him carrying that model 1935 Belgian Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol that was ONLY available to the French military at the time of Raiders, also 'technically' unavailable to civilians at the time, so it would have been no big deal.

I never had any problems with Indy somehow ending up with 'military only' accessible gear once one factored in the YIJC canon information that he had served with the Belgian army during WW1, then military intelligence.

In my 'world', this past service connection allowed him access to newly created military items that an average citizen had no access , but he did, through those past associations (ESPECIALLY his military intelligence connection).....so why not an A2?

As has already been stated elsewhere, though, the A2 was bypassed as it did interfere with his access to his side arm and whip, so the jacket with the side entry splits was created.

Regard! Michaelson

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:10 am

ThatManFromRio wrote:
Tibor wrote:...as well as what wool knits get like when soaked in South American rivers and worn in 100 degree heat, Indy was way smarter about clothes than the A-2 guys.
...he was wearing wool trousers ...

And a Fur Felt hat!!!

I'm sweating just thinking about it!

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:18 am

Unless you find yourself in Nepal, then it's nice and cozy.

ron521 · Post by **ron521** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:33 pm

An A2 may have been the first jacket considered for the film, but the jacket Indy ended up with looks a lot more like the non-military jackets sold by Sears, Montgomery Ward, and other outlets during the 30's. At that time, leather hadn't yet become a "bad boy's" jacket, that would happen in the early 50's directly as a result of "The Wild One" with Marlon Brando. In the 30's, leather was seen more as a premium working man's jacket, costing more, but worth it because it was more durable than any textile then available. If you watch classic movies from that era, you see lots of regular Joe's wearing leather...truck drivers, delivery men, factory workers, etc.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:07 pm

....and railroad workers, complete with fedora!

Regards! M

eporium · Post by **eporium** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:35 am

Only air crewmen could obtain A-2 jackets through regular channels,

Paratroopers/airborne (officers only?) were issued with regulation A2 jackets. There are period photo's of such and also a few surviving examples.
There is one on the Lost Worlds website;
http://www.lostworldsinc.com/A-2_Flight ... fantry.htm

There is other Indy gear which also relates to Army gear. The trousers are like officers Pinks, web belts like officers web belts and the gloves are like
those issued to paratroopers.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:47 am

Actually the gloves were always either Wells Lamont or Midwest work gloves they kept highjacking from 'grips' on the production sets, so they were never military issued gloves in the film. They were just work gloves.

Regards! Michaelson

eporium · Post by **eporium** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:54 am

The gloves used by the Para's and USAAF officers were not mil spec but commercial items.

Eastman make a repro of this type of glove;
http://www.eastmanleather.com/product_i ... cts_id=137

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:46 pm

The film gloves don't have the stitching on the back. They are just regular leather work gloves, albeit a slightly different pattern from the ones most commonly available today.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:39 pm

I'm sure the military version would work fine, but like I said, they were either Wells Lamont or Midwest gloves, depending on the scene and/or location.

This was confirmed years ago by the production and prop people.

Regards! Michaelson

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:21 pm

Wasn't his outfit also a bit of an homage to "Fedora"?

Leather jacket, satchel, brimmed hat. I realise it was a later movie, but still early in the timeline.

LJT

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:21 pm

There was no concept before Raiders. Raiders was the concept. ToD included the spillover that did not make it into the first movie. .....let's wait and see what we get...? BANG! Raiders hits the big time. Now we have the 'go ahead' for (pre) sequel(s). Check out the novelization by Campbell Black, its interesting in that regard. All else was made up after the fact....I dunno, i'm just makin' it up as I go...

Let's see...why don't we give the character a...Raiders jacket..?

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:52 pm

The inconsistencies in our Indy world are appalling. The only possible explanation is that it's all just movieland fiction, and since that can't possibly be true, we just have to accept the apparent paradox, wear the gear and hope to put on some more mileage.

LJT

CM · Post by CM » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:20 am

Long John Tinfoil wrote:The inconsistencies in our Indy world are appalling. The only possible explanation is that it's all just movieland fiction, and since that can't possibly be true, we just have to accept the apparent paradox, wear the gear and hope to put on some more mileage.

LJT

Of course. My question was about the logic of film costumers, not the spurious back story of a fictional character.

CM · Post by CM » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:22 am

Michaelson wrote:I wouldn't have had any more problem with him wearing an A2 than I did him carrying that model 1935 Belgian Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol that was ONLY available to the French military at the time of Raiders, also 'technically' unavailable to civilians at the time, so it would have been no big deal.

I never had any problems with Indy somehow ending up with 'military only' accessible gear once one factored in the YIJC canon information that he had served with the Belgian army during WW1, then military intelligence.

In my 'world', this past service connection allowed him access to newly created military items that an average citizen had no access , but he did, through those past associations (ESPECIALLY his military intelligence connection).....so why not an A2?

As has already been stated elsewhere, though, the A2 was bypassed as it did interfere with his access to his side arm and whip, so the jacket with the side entry splits was created.

Regard! Michaelson

Yep, I agree totally- if we're going by history the costume is absurd but reconcilable. Isn't his shoulder bag post 1936 too?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:53 am

Yep. Ah well.

Regard! Michaelson

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:36 am

CM wrote:Of course. My question was about the logic of film costumers, not the spurious back story of a fictional character.

And to get back to that original point, sure, it would have been much easier to put Indy in an A2. Any number of jacket makers made reproductions and could have churned out what they needed for production.

What I wish is there were actual pictures of the Wilson jackets that were rejected and how close those were to the final jacket design. DNL was early in her career and first time working with SS so I'm sure she was trying to make an impression. Simply picking A2's off the rack wouldn't have been considered particularly creative. Asking for something altered allowed her to 'put her stamp' on the overall character look.

Same reason I suspect Bernie moved the bag strap to over the jacket in CS. On the whole he didn't have much to work with as a costume designer since the adventure outfit had to match the previous movies 98%. So, what can he do to 'contribute' to the character design? Move the strap.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:14 am

CM wrote:
Yep, I agree totally- if we're going by history the costume is absurd but reconcilable. Isn't his shoulder bag post 1936 too?

Same problem with his seaplane... but it doesn't matter

Still looks great on-screen

CM · Post by CM » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:08 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:
CM wrote:Of course. My question was about the logic of film costumers, not the spurious back story of a fictional character.

And to get back to that original point, sure, it would have been much easier to put Indy in an A2. Any number of jacket makers made reproductions and could have churned out what they needed for production.

What I wish is there were actual pictures of the Wilson jackets that were rejected and how close those were to the final jacket design. DNL was early in her career and first time working with SS so I'm sure she was trying to make an impression. Simply picking A2's off the rack wouldn't have been considered particularly creative. Asking for something altered allowed her to 'put her stamp' on the overall character look.

Same reason I suspect Bernie moved the bag strap to over the jacket in CS. On the whole he didn't have much to work with as a costume designer since the adventure outfit had to match the previous movies 98%. So, what can he do to 'contribute' to the character design? Move the strap.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Good point Jeff - there's certainly ego in the costume design business and even a minor tweak might be dressed up (no pun intended) by some as evidence of creativity. Of course, I was just thinking that the original Steranko Indy concept drawing features a jacket that looks more like a 1930's utility jacket so maybe that helped keep the A2 away from the deal.

CM · Post by CM » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:10 am

Tibor wrote:
CM wrote:
Yep, I agree totally- if we're going by history the costume is absurd but reconcilable. Isn't his shoulder bag post 1936 too?
Same problem with his seaplane... but it doesn't matter Still looks great on-screen

Yep - that's why I never care to explore the fictional life of Indy as an explanation of how things came about. It's fiction and all the explanations that matter are in the hands of the production team with their wonky dates and inconsistencies.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:14 am

Lets also keep in mind that the Steranko drawing had a jacket with a notched lapel and a zipper! Notched lapels work well with buttons not zippers...

So the Steranko drawings are another TOTALLY invented jacket with no historical precedent either.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:43 am

Had forgotten about that, the Steranko pictures featured a jacket without the knits.

Surely DNL would have been shown the concept art and used that as some basis for the final designs.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:21 pm

Hollowpond wrote:Lets also keep in mind that the Steranko drawing had a jacket with a notched lapel and a zipper! Notched lapels work well with buttons not zippers...

So the Steranko drawings are another TOTALLY invented jacket with no historical precedent either.

https://www.google.com/search?q=leather ... B400%3B400" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its like the word says, there is really nothing new under the sun, it just depends on what hardware you want to use and how you want to style it. The precursor to the A-2, the A-1 had buttons and a lapel. Period civilian jackets had zippers.

http://www.pinterest.com/blakedpierpoin ... r-jackets/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About the only thing you can conclude is that they lumped the 30's and 40's together and called it 'close enough'. It's entertainment.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:34 pm

[quote="Indiana Charles"]I know WWII pilots used to cut them off as they used to get in the way.

The cuffs I mean not the trousers

- I.C.[/quote

On both sides of the line, tankers and other personnel in north Africa often cut them off, or wore shorts because of the extreme conditions facing the Afrika Corps and British 8th army. Wearing the whole uniform under those conditions just wasn't practical in that desert heat, as they soon found out. Imagine being in that chunk of iron with no air conditioner? Its not a far fetched notion to think that Indy took vintage military gear and weapons, and adapted them. In '36, though, the A-2 was not available to civies. The article above even mentions that by wartime, even troupes had a hard time getting their hands on one, if they were not a part of an aircrew. Could he have gotten away with it in film? I'm sure glad it didn't go in that direction. Not sure if the knits really work with the rest of the gear?

Photoshop one and see....

CM · Post by CM » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:47 am

Hollowpond wrote:Lets also keep in mind that the Steranko drawing had a jacket with a notched lapel and a zipper! Notched lapels work well with buttons not zippers...

So the Steranko drawings are another TOTALLY invented jacket with no historical precedent either.

Not so fast. To my eyes the Steranko jacket looks 1930's - it's like what Aero would call their Bootlegger jacket - lapels and a zip. I would have been happy to see Indy wear one of those in dark brown. Remember Sterenko is not drawing in a realist style, so precise detail isn't his thing, but you can clearly see the derivation of this jacket.

The easiest thing would have been to give Indy an A2 and it's pertinent to note that in the Indy rip off 1982 TV series Tales of the Gold Monkey, also set in the 1930's, the adventurer character Jake wears an A2.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:36 am

Loved that show. Extra funny the show is set in 1938 and Jake is an ex-Flying Tiger pilot. The Flying Tigers were in operation in 1941-42.

As for the Steranko drawings compared to an Aero Bootlegger, yes jackets to have lapels and zippers. The Perfecto model has a very similar design, but in the Steranko drawings the zipper appears to be centered rather than off-set like in the Bootlegger/Perfecto.

CM is correct that Steranko is drawing for a concept and not creating tailor patterns, but none-the-less the design is a bit odd.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

CM · Post by CM » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:50 am

Good TV memories, Jeff. I'm thinking that the concept illustration looks like a generic aviator jacket; some have side zips, some center zips, some have chest pockets, some don't, some have HUGE lapels, some more subtle ones.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:57 am

Indiana Jeff wrote: As for the Steranko drawings compared to an Aero Bootlegger, yes jackets to have lapels and zippers. The Perfecto model has a very similar design, but in the Steranko drawings the zipper appears to be centered rather than off-set like in the Bootlegger/Perfecto.

Exactly my point. Thanks Jeff!

If that jacket were real, the zipper would end just before the breast bone. Show me a vintage jacket like that and I'll admit I'm wrong! There WERE jackets like that, but they would have buttons and NOT zippers.

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:50 am

You guys really digging into this quite a lot..fact is..IF the jacket was out when Indy was living "which it was"...then yes,..he COULD have worn it..No matter how hard they were to come by..I mean,he was able to infiltrate Hitlers group in TLC..He knocks out guards and takes the clothes in more than one scene..As a kid,being adventurous,im quite sure he could have happened upon just about anything..

CM · Post by CM » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:46 pm

Hollowpond wrote:
Indiana Jeff wrote: As for the Steranko drawings compared to an Aero Bootlegger, yes jackets to have lapels and zippers. The Perfecto model has a very similar design, but in the Steranko drawings the zipper appears to be centered rather than off-set like in the Bootlegger/Perfecto.
Exactly my point. Thanks Jeff!

If that jacket were real, the zipper would end just before the breast bone. Show me a vintage jacket like that and I'll admit I'm wrong! There WERE jackets like that, but they would have buttons and NOT zippers.

H I think that's being too literal.

It's a drawing, not a pattern of a real jacket. It's an approximation and for me quite a reasonable one. You may be right that finding a jacket like that with a straight zip is hard. But to me that's not such a big detail to fester over.

We know what kind of jacket Sterenko is trying to depict, just as Indy's gun in the drawing looks like a Colt 1911 (with artistic license).

By the way I've come to the view that the movie jacket as filmed isn't as inaccurate as I once thought. There are many jackets with large cargo pockets and no knits from that period. Perhaps the greatest difference is the action back. That configuration is unique - but it could have come from the period nevertheless.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:00 pm

I'm addressing the question. My point (there was one somewhere in this thread) is that the drawing is just as period accurate as what was in the movies. Meaning, it's not at all!! I am perfectly aware that it's a drawing...

Is it an amalgam of several different styles? Yes. Did it exist then? No. Is it cool? Yes!