My New Guinea...er...goatskin Raider from WPG...

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:29 pm

Yep, you might be surprised!

Antique brass Talon zip and ni**le snaps, yoke and sleeves misaligned. A pinch of Todd's and a dash of G&B thrown into the mix...

Review & pics to follow, once I nurse it past its initial package/shipping shock...

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:34 pm

Brave man, and thanks for being the test subject.

Can't wait to see actual pic's of someone wearing it.

Other than the obvious, how's the leather.

Croft

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 pm

I will say this, I love talon zips. Nice period touch I must say. I'm looking forward to some detailed photos of the product itself. Not saying I am about to jump on another jacket design but most out of curiosity.

TenuredProfessor · Post by **TenuredProfessor** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:57 pm

Thanks for taking the plunge on one of these, Tex!!

Gotta say, I was prepared to write the jackets off as sub-par based on the pics....but now I'm kind of hoping your forthcoming review convinces me to open my wallet.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:14 pm

... And if is decent, good Lord they need a new photographer. They'd do well to get some pics of COW members ala USWings.

Looking forward to your review, Tex.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:29 pm

they need a new photographer.

Yeah, they sent me a pic (when I asked for some more pics) of only the lining, which is green but was kinda hard to even see the picture as a whole as it was very dark, lol. But, as long as the jacket itself checks out that is the main thing - please keep us updated there Tex!

Zoltar · Post by **Zoltar** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:05 am

Green! ?

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:44 am

I eagerly await the splendiferous photos that I'm sure the magnanimous Texus Maximus will undoubtedly post of this most stupendous jacket offering.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:54 pm

I eagerly await the splendiferous photos that I'm sure the magnanimous Texus Maximus will undoubtedly post of this most stupendous jacket offering.

Wait, what.

Croft

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:50 pm

Any new updates there Texan? Inquiring minds want to know, lol,

Thanks man for any & all info,
Aaron

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:21 pm

Usually, 2 + 2 = 4. But does it in this case...?

Let's see, WPG is located in Salinas, CA and G&B is located in El Cajon, CA. Hmmm...

Surprisingly one day, I received a notice of new products from WPG in my Inbox. I had to do a double take, but a Raiders jacket from WPG? I quickly went to the website to make sure this was not a misprint, and sure enough...

...which proved a couple of things. The Raiders jacket did not look too presentable zipped up, and looked much better from the back. It was meant to be a leather prop to round out a movie costume.

But let's see what else we can find out...I received the jacket maybe a week or so ago from the UAE, and somewhere along its path, it had been repackaged, maybe during the customs stop, or by DHL, I wasn't sure. I was eager to find out exactly what is this new offering, the initial run of the Raider jacket from WPG.

As you may have discovered, leather jackets and being confined to small boxes or packages during shipments simply do not mix. Leather needs some breathing room. So after it was liberated, you could almost hear a collective sigh of relief. In the words of William Wallace....FREEDOM! Indy jackets are built for adventure, after all.

The most difficult part of the break in process was to mold the collar, which initially was met with some resistance. Certain panels on the jacket, like the front chest, upper sleeves and back, were soft and pliable like lamb, while other panels were slightly stiff, characteristically not unlike goatskin. I was surprised to find that the jacket began to break in rather rapidly, and by the second day, was fitting much better. The collar took some effort, but it too was molding quite well, and the lining is a silky type material, reminiscent of the USW Hero & Legend series, maybe rayon/twill? The little size tag is attached to the top seam of the collar stand, so it might need to be repositioned a bit further down. There is no label.

Overall impressions. The Raider jacket fits much like a Todd's Standard. It is on the slim fitting side, so if you are in between a S-M, order a Medium; M-L, order a Large. Hardware, (except for the strap loops) is top shelf, Talon #5, antique brass zip and heavy duty IRC pocket snaps. The map pockets are double walled with leather, so initially, its feel takes some getting used to. Once the collar breaks in, it lays like the LC. Much of the details had faithfully been adhered to, a few not, but some obvious similarities remained. Curiously, this jacket retained many of the specifics of a commonly known, tried and true offering. Let's take a look, shall we.....

Quarter inch seams on the collar and storm flap.

Mic Jagger inspired, double lipped gussets. (No one else does this, at present.)

Pockets appear to be faithfully reproduced, both in shape and size:

The strap originates from inside the jacket seam, in a similar way. The Raider strap, however, is only 3/4" and its loops are flimsy.

Overall, I would have to say that if you consider the scale: Excellent, Very Good, Good, Average, Below Average & Poor, in terms of a Raiders jacket reproductions, considering its price also, it is "$175 Pretty Good". This jacket is not a showcase Indy jacket, as of now, but it would make a good beater. Not bad for the first run. Some features that were really right about this jacket was the leather and its hardware. Not much to say about the back. The yoke was reasonably thin and sleeve/yoke seams misaligned. Great quality of leather, soft and pliable but goatskin durable and abrasion resistant. My best guess is that possibly a well known jacket was sent to a shop in Pakistan, and it was then used it as a template.

Here are the specs that could be improved upon:
Collar shape tweaked to a more accurate Indy Raiders jacket collar, and ending at the mid-portion of the storm flap.
Change the 1/4" collar and storm flap seams.
Pocket flaps with rounded scallops. Eliminate the double walled map pocket.
1" straps, and depending on how SA you want the strap configuration to be?
Solid strap hardware.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Hi there Texan,

'thank you' for taking the time to evaluate the findings on this particular jacket.

From the pics (which, I'm assuming the jacket is the one on the right-hand side), it appears to be the 'authentic' brown color. Is that correct? And, just out of curiosity, would you be able to snap any pics of it w/ you wearing it outside in natural sunlight? If not, no problem! I was kinda hoping that these would run on the darker shade of brown (perhaps Pecards will help to darken em' up a tad?), but if the goal of WPG is to achieve an authentic Indy jacket, then having it in 'authentic' brown may not necessarily be a bad thing. The good news, for me at least, is that its a slimmer fitting which works out well on account that I was looking to purchase a Wested 'Hero' jacket soon so the WPG jacket may work out just fine instead.

'Thank you' for your time and efforts once more, my friend. Best to you and take care,
Aaron

baddates1 · Post by **baddates1** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:57 am

Nice jacket except the loose and thin strap. All in all pretty good jacket

Regards from an endangered gentleman: baddates1

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:47 am

Tex,

Thanks for the very thorough review.

Texan Scott wrote:Let's see, WPG is located in Salinas, CA and G&B is located in El Cajon, CA. Hmmm...

Curiously, this jacket retained many of the specifics of the G&B, as compared with the Expedition. Let's take a look, shall we.....

Pockets appear to be faithfully copied from the G&B, both in shape and size

My best guess is that a G&B was sent to a shop in Pakistan, and it was then used it as a template.

Please use caution in making assertions that WPG deliberately copied an Expedition from G&B. Unless you have information to back that up it's an accusation that can cause many headaches.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

MOD EDIT: Per Tex's request, all comments not related to the jacket review have been cleaned out of the thread.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:33 pm

Looks like the ad included the statement, "No handwarmer side pockets, just the correct patch pockets on the outside and inside pocket..."

Anymore pics that you could add of your new WPG jacket there Texan?

Thanks man,
Aaron

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:12 pm

There are hand warmer pockets in this jacket. The map pockets are double walled with leather. The 'Raider' is the one that is the most brown in color. It has a warm brown tone to it.

I would simply make a comment as a first responder. Copies of jackets and copies of copies have existed for quite some time, since Peter began to attempt to reproduce his own work. I think a distinction could and should be made between plagiarism, which is blatantly copying someone's literary work, or other such creative material, and copying a jacket. The Indy jacket is basically a cousin, or derivative of the A-2. The stark difference is in the action pleats on the back panel. Map pockets, storm flap, zip, general shape of the collar, all accurately copied. Of course, straps and pleats existed on period half-belts, etc., so these singular designs pre-existed, they were just not incorporated into one jacket in quite that configuration, until the original Raiders film jacket came into existence. Because the A-2 design was made for the government, etc., the design was never copyrighted/patented as exclusive government material, so it left the door open for reproductions, even into the modern day. Civilian firms were contracted by the govt. to make these during war time, as no one of them had any sort of 'exclusive' agreement, their contract numbers were usually listed on the labels. Currently, there are some very good reproductions of A-2's, including Goodwear, Kelso, etc., the list goes on. I would argue that most all jackets made today, are basically variations, long or short, tweaks of details, etc., of either the A-2 or a greatcoat. There are not many other truly "original" designs out there. However these companies decide to clothe the body, ultimately, most modern day designs are derivatives of these two, to name the main ones.

Secondly, as a first run out of the mill, I formed an opinion from personal experience with Indy jackets. Certainly, I left the door open for interpretation, etc., and did not absolutely confirm it, but it is an educated guess. The viewer and potential purchaser can make up his or her own mind if it is or not, and obviously some simply will not care. The truth is, this could be a repro. of a popular maker, or it could not be. I have to concede that regardless, it is an opinion, and you can read into it what you will. However, malicious intent is never the word, and usually, I simply try to look at the results, as though a scientist were looking down a scope, and report what I see....so don't bull whip the messenger.

As you may be aware, copying jackets, and copies of jackets, hats and the like, have very much been part of the history of this hobby. TN supposedly copied a Lucas Archives jacket, and when his repros hit the consumer market, other vendors copied his copies, BK and S&J (or at least analyzed, drew inspiration from it) to name two. I believe Todd was given specs, not a jacket. Peter has said that he looked at several of the current offerings, and later developed the Hero, to be a more faithful repro. However it came to pass, and given the current state of the hobby, most do not put considerable weight on, or in essence, 'cry foul' in this area of Indy jacket reproductions, otherwise, most all vendors would be guilty of it, even the original maker. I believe, because fans simply want a more accurate and well made repro, therein lies the justification. Right or wrong, people have traditionally viewed blatantly copied literary work and other creative material as "no-no's" but clothing has been fair game...? You can decide where you draw the line.

Opinions and more opinions, copies and more copies. Such is the life of an Indy Gear fan.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Hey Tex, not sure of all your statements. I don't think S&J copied Tony's work... I'd always heard they developed their own pattern from screen shots and adjustments. But anyway, your general point is well taken. I think Tony did the hobby a great service resurrecting the odd cut of the original Raiders jacket.

It's interesting, the more I've studied A-2s and their various contracts, the more I understand the Raiders jacket and its genesis.

Adventure Dog · Post by **Adventure Dog** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:07 pm

Thanks Tex for the review! The money is never quite right for a jacket, but if I can get a Goatskin Raiders for less than $300, I might just have find out what to do with my tax refund...

I'm still not quite sure I understand the leather pocket thing. The side entry is lined with fabric, but the "drop pocket" (Map pocket) is leather lined?

As you say, I'd love to see a second run of these, maybe with tall sizes? Hardware, like the side buckles, can be replaced right?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:21 am

The wall of the map pocket is made of two pieces of leather, so when you put your hands into the hand warmer, side pockets, it feels extra thick and stiff. It takes a bit to adjust to that feel, because it is unprecedented.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:43 pm

Hello Texan,

Are you able to post up some new pics of you wearing this jacket, just out of curiosity (indoor/outdoors)? Thanks man,
Aaron

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:42 pm

It seems pretty good for the price and in goat nonetheless. I hope they tweak the little things a little bit.

wpg · Post by **wpg** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:07 pm

I appreciate all the comments on this site that will help us to improve the product on the next run. Our first production run was small to test the waters and get some feedback. Overall, I am pretty happy with this jacket, other than the straps. Our goal was to make a jacket that was affordable and most of all comfortable, and I think we succeeded on those two counts.

And, yes, the photos need to be improved. We would welcome some customer input.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:32 pm

Thank you very much for dropping by and for your continued support of our hobby!

Regard! Michaelson

DiCatania · Post by **DiCatania** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:51 pm

Yes, Thank You for supporting our (addiction) hobby

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:18 pm

Yes, this is a most exciting development! I love that it is goat, tough and abrasion resistant! This is, I believe will be the jacket that I will buy if the next run has those small things noted by the esteemed Texan Scott. I agree on all of his points, especially on the contours of the pocket flaps and the straps and hardware.
It looks like a very comfortable and awesome jacket...is there anything else that we would expect from WPG?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:50 pm

....a $100 gift certificate and maybe a can of pecard?

Getting back to Jerry's (WPG) questions about photos, it would be nice to see them post pics of the jacket on their website, with the guy wearing a WPG Indy shirt, bag & strap, gun belt and rig, with the jacket zipped slightly. I thought they may have missed a good opportunity to display and integrate their wears.

I would be glad to help with tweaking specs., if needed. I forgot to mention that the little size tag is attached to the top seam of the collar stand, so it might need to be repositioned a bit further down. There is no label.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:37 am

Not sure if I'd make such an offer, Tex. The individual who volunteers to work with a vendor with 'tweaking specs' becomes a target for others for the rest of his career in this hobby. You'll find yourself defending anything you've said or done from now on.

Just some friendly advice.

Trust me on this one.

Regards! Michaelson

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:28 am

Understood.

WPG has a pretty good start. I look forward to seeing what the next iteration brings, and I left enough info. that if they want to make improvements, its possible.

Adventure Dog · Post by **Adventure Dog** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:07 pm

Hey Texan! It's been couple of months now, and while it is certainly NOT jacket wearing weather here in Maryland, I was wondering how the WPG jacket has faired?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:22 pm

I sent it back. Once they get the kinks worked out of it, it will be a good offering for the money. I was surprised at how soft the goatskin leather was. Straps could use some work and better hardware, as they are not wide enough, and kept pulling out. Add the other tweaks mentioned above, and it will be a value, $175 for goatskin.

folkprophet · Post by **folkprophet** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:01 am

I just ordered one. I'll post my thoughts when I get it. I'm a bit worried about fit as I'm tallish and thinnish. I got the large, but am worried about sleeve length. We'll see.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:37 pm

post some pics if you would. Id like to see if you receive one from a newer iteration? I really liked the skin they used.

folkprophet · Post by **folkprophet** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:22 pm

Well, the jacket, as I had worried, is like 3" too short in the sleeves.

Bah. It's not like I'm a giant. I'm only 6'2". Seriously ridiculous though. Oh well. It's going back though, unfortunately. Otherwise I love it.

What pics would you like specifically?

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:56 pm

folkprophet wrote:Well, the jacket, as I had worried, is like 3" too short in the sleeves. Bah. It's not like I'm a giant. I'm only 6'2". Seriously ridiculous though. Oh well. It's going back though, unfortunately. Otherwise I love it.

What pics would you like specifically?

to bad..i ordered off the rack from wested..im 6'2" and the arms fit fine..actually it all fits..i just wanted the jacket to be a tad longer..thats the ONLY issue..Good luck with yours. I know I was upset with my issue..make sure to post pics when you get it.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:59 pm

FP, I was curious if the straps were the same? They were about 3/4" give or take, on my jacket. Did anything change?

Adventure Dog · Post by **Adventure Dog** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:44 pm

Most sleeves on the leather jacket can be "let out" a 1/4" or so by unfurling the leather at the cuff, but probably not enough to make a difference for you! As someone with 34 length arms, is there any hope that such a WPG jacket would fit? Can't wait to see any pics you put up!

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:51 pm

I am VERY interested to see if they get the kinks worked out of this. I have been wanting a jacket in goat for a long time but don't have the funds for more expensive offerings.

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:08 pm

whipcracker wrote:I am VERY interested to see if they get the kinks worked out of this. I have been wanting a jacket in goat for a long time but don't have the funds for more expensive offerings.

how much is this jacket in question??

Charybdis · Post by **Charybdis** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:24 pm

I believe that it is offered at $175US...doesn't US Wings offer a goat for right around $200??

Charybdis · Post by **Charybdis** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Update on the above: US Wings offers a steerhide jacket for around $200 but not goatskin...

folkprophet · Post by **folkprophet** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:12 am

After putting it on again, decided it was fitted enough to exchange it for an X-Large and give that a try. May drown me...but might work out. Will see. Should get it in a few days more. Have pics of the Large but haven't gotten around to 'em yet. I will though. I'll take pics of the X-Large too.

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:22 am

folkprophet wrote:After putting it on again, decided it was fitted enough to exchange it for an X-Large and give that a try. May drown me...but might work out. Will see. Should get it in a few days more. Have pics of the Large but haven't gotten around to 'em yet. I will though. I'll take pics of the X-Large too.

Any luck with pics yet?

drjameswing · Post by **drjameswing** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:05 pm

whipcracker wrote:
folkprophet wrote:After putting it on again, decided it was fitted enough to exchange it for an X-Large and give that a try. May drown me...but might work out. Will see. Should get it in a few days more. Have pics of the Large but haven't gotten around to 'em yet. I will though. I'll take pics of the X-Large too.

Any luck with pics yet?

I would we interested as well. I have yet to see worn pictures of the wpg other than the poor quality stock photos.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:23 pm

aside from a few limitations, I really liked the WPG, and was amazed at how quickly the goatskin was breaking in, just a matter of wearing it.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:48 pm

I'm mean really now, you guys keep teasing us that you
have one, lets see them pic's (wearing it please) we, I mean myself
would love to see how it looks and drapes.

Croft

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:27 am

gethcha one, Crofty. Its on the slim fitting side.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:27 pm

Slim fit

oy that leaves me out, but I still want to see it, ya never know.

Crofty hmmm

Croft

Glenville86 · Post by **Glenville86** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:27 am

I am 6 feet 4 inches and 240 pounds. Big arms and shoulders and the WPG in a XXL fits great. I can layer under it as well. Just want to add that I don't favor snug fitting jackets.

APL · Post by **APL** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:45 am

folkprophet wrote:Well, the jacket, as I had worried, is like 3" too short in the sleeves. Bah. It's not like I'm a giant. I'm only 6'2". Seriously ridiculous though. Oh well. It's going back though, unfortunately. Otherwise I love it.

What pics would you like specifically?

I was wondering if I could ask a little more about the fit overall. I'm about 5' 11" (and 1/2"), but just shy of 6' and typically wear a 42R jacket/sportcoat. I had considered the Large but was worried it would either be too tight (based on the comments of slim fit) or too short (I had tried Todd's Large and while it was wide enough, it was about 2" too short for me). The other problem with Todd's is that the XL was too wide, especially at the collar. The measurements for this jacket aren't measuring the same start/end points as Todd's, which aren't similar to the measurements provided by Wested, and so on.... (with exception of length, and the WPG jacket seems to be a tad longer in the back than Todd's) but anyway, it's hard to compare just based on the measurements they all provide.

Do you, or anyone else who has made the leap, think that this jacket in Large may fit better than the Todd's? Or should someone who's a tad shy of 6' go to XL? Considering it sounds like it comes from overseas, I want to be sure what I'm getting so I don't have to return/exchange... if possible.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:12 pm

APL, based on your comments if you can wear a 42R then a Large should fit the bill. Just realized I had posted most everything about the jacket but the measurements on the Large. Seems like the back length is around 26" on this jacket.