The Figure 'S', and I'm new

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:45 am

Hello, everyone, this is my first post.
The Raven is down, so I'm here.
I'm into whips mainly.
I have a similar fedora, kind of similar jacket, whip holder.
Khaki pants and LLBean Indy shirts are usually what I wear for all casual occasions.
But, out of all the forum, you will probably find me on the bullwhip pages.
I have one Western Stage Props 6’ Indy style, and one WSP 8’ Australian style.

Now, after my introduction, it’s great Mark Allen came in. I wish he would become a regular poster.
The only thing missing now, is Alex Green

This is about The Figure 'S'

I have the Circus, Overhand, Horizontal, Horizontal hand swap, Circus hand swap, etc... down pretty good. I’m also fairly proficient with targets.

But, the Figure ‘S’ is bothering me. I’ve watched Alex do it on “Whip Cracking part II” over and over. I know it’s hard to explain by words, but does anyone have suggestions to help me be able to make this one actually crack?

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:34 am

I am unable to help you on that account but I would just like to say Welcome to Club Obi Wan and I hope you enjoy your stay here.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:13 am

That's the problem I always had with that tape. Alex Green, with all due respect, has a very confusing way at times of explaining the simplest things. If I remember correctly, it's been a while since I've watched that video, the "figure S" is part of his demonstration of the Queensland Flash, a fairly simple multiple cracking routine made so much harder than it has to be by a clumsy explanation. You may want to consider picking up the Fundamental Whipcracking Techniques video, from Mike Murphy. The basic cracks and the harder routines are all on there, and they are explained so much better. Just my .02.

Regards,
Jim

VP · Post by VP » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:49 am

Velcome. Enjoy your stay! Nowadays I'm mostly into props, as I try to make 'em. I now have an almost complete Toht hanger, the map to the temple of Chachapoyan warriors and an almost complete machete.
My Akubra Federation is on it's way and I have a Finnish Army gasmask bag.

Pretty OT as I don't have a whip, but welcome to the Club Obi-Wan.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:03 am

First of all I agree with Jim. Alex can be a bit frustrating at times. He is a good hands-on coach, but in general if you are good at visualization you should understand this crack. BTW, that's Alex on the right and Joe Strain in the middle picture of my avatar.

First off, when first learning this crack using a long whip should be avoided. Use an 8 or 6 foot bullwhip. Ideally this crack is more suited for a stockwhip, but a bullwhip is just fine as long it is not a 10 or higher. The long whips are just to clumsy for the beginner.

In any crack, you are always trying to form that tight "hairpin" shape in the thong of the whip. So, Alex states form an "S". The goal of that crack is to make a crack that cracks behind you. That's the context. If you make an "S" behind you, if done correctly the "hairpin" forms and then you should get a crack. That "S" crack is part of the Queensland Flash. The QF is controversial in it's definition, but for the most part it starts by doing a:
- horizontal crack off to your right side
- the "S" crack, since the whip is already behind you by doing the horizontal
- the finish is a simple circus crack right in front

The QF is the foundation for doing the first multiple whip crack routine. Volume 2 of that series was to get you going on more the complicated multiple whip crack routines and Alex chose as a starter the QF. It's an excellent multiple crack routine to do.

Just make sure to wear long pants and preferably jeans. When I was first starting out learning that "S" crack, I wore out some skin on my right calf. BTW, make sure you wear a long brim hat for that crack just in case.

Take Care...
-Sergei
p.s. I highly endorse Volume 1 and 2 of that series. There are many threads of which tapes to buy. I love them all. But for first starting out volume 1 is a must, then you can branch off from there.

p.s.s. Welcome to the board.

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:23 pm

Thank you all.
I just called WSP, and talked to Joe, and purchased Fundamental Whip Cracking.
I already have Whip Cracking made easy part 1 and 2.
Hopefully all of them will help.

JStrain · Post by **JStrain** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:26 pm

The simplest way to explain it is the "S" crack is nothing more than a circus crack in reverse. While learning the circus crack you start with the whip laying out behind you. With the "S" crack, you start with the whip laying out in front. It the same swing and cut technique as the other vertical and horizontal cracks. It just cracks behind you instead. If you watch the fall/ popper of the whip when you do a circus crack, you will notice that it almost touches the ground behind you as you begin your forward motion. The same thing applies to the reverse. Watch your fall and timing when you flip you wrist to the rear on the "S" crack.

Hope this helps,
Joe

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:34 pm

Hi,
I've been through the same frustrating experience in trying to get the "figure S" by watching WC made easy part II. I even slashed myself in the face with my heavy Bernie bullwhip.
Like Jim and Walt sugested, FWT by Mike Murphy offers a much simpler explanation of cracks: Figure S = Reverse forward crack (circus crack).
My 0.2 cents.

Bernardo

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:01 pm

I sent Mr. Strain a PM
Basically, I read that post, went out and tried, and five minutes later, was doing the 'S' crack

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:06 pm

Holy Cow! How did you get in here? They should check the ID's in this joint better...

Good seeing you here, regardless.

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:41 pm

I'm sorry, I don't understand, Renderking. Are you talking about me?
You helped me.

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:44 pm

Joe is absolutely correct about his explanation of the "S" crack. It is only a circus crack in Reverse.
I didn't learn it from Alex Green's tape either. I started working on it after I bought Murphy's excellent video "Fundamental Whipcracking Techniques".
If you notice the whip Alex is using for demonstrating that trick and many others, you will see that he utilizes a very long handled bullwhip. The handle on that whip looks to be at least 16" long and may be 18 or 20" even. Having a longer handled whip better facilitates the combinations of the different cracks.
One way I'd explain the S crack.... throw out the terminology and call it a reverse circus crack. Then work on the circus crack in degrees about your body. If facing forward, as normally doing a circus crack, that would be at 12 o'clock. With your body remaining stationary aim the whip to 11 o'clock... then 10 o'clock...then 9 o'clock... Go back to 12 o'clock, then go the other direction. Go to 1 o'clock, then 2, then 3..... 3 o'clock will be your reverse circus crack. Now, if you put the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock together you will have a Figure 8. In Murphy's Aussie terminolgy that is the "Slow Figure 8". Now work on getting that to flow smoothly, with each follow thru going into the next crack. Also work on turning your body so that the 9 o'clock gets back to 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock is now 6 o'clock.... that is 180 degrees apart.

About 3 and half years ago when Murphy came to Dallas I got some one on one and he helped me with that back crack of the Slow Figure 8. He instructed me to really reach out to get that crack further back. Much like the forward circus crack, where you reach forward to get that crack.

3 years ago in Vegas at the WWAC convention I was sitting down with Alex Green while he first viewed Murphy's video "Fundamentals of Whipcracking Techniques"... I remember him remarking about the Queensland Flash as shown by Murphy was different and the way Alex had learned in Australia as a boy. Murphy calls what Alex shows on his tape as the "Changing Planes Queensland Flash", which starts with the horizontal overhead. Murphy presents the Queensland Flash (QLF) as a cattleman's crack (Aussie for circus crack) first instead of the overhead. If you begin from the overhead that is another plane(overhead). Aussies are very specific in their terminology, though there are some discussions, for the most part they all agree on most of the basic cracks including the QLF.

You will enjoy the Fundamentals tape... I did and so have hundreds of other people.....

There's my $2 dollars and 2 cents

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:59 pm

I've never heard mention of an "S" crack before. But if it is, in fact, what others are calling the Queensland Flash then I know what it is. It seems to me the easiest way of practicing this is to get your Figure Eight pattern down and then transition into the Fast Figure Eights.

From what I understand the definition of a Queensland Flash is a Circus crack, Fast Figure Eight and finished with another circus crack.

The Sydney Flash is where you go from a over head horizontal crack into a Fast Figure Eight and finish with a circus.

Sound about right?

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:07 pm

The_Edge wrote:From what I understand the definition of a Queensland Flash is a Circus crack, Fast Figure Eight and finished with another circus crack.

The QLF is more regularly known among the Aussies as using cattleman's cracks, but yes, you described it right. The circcs crack and acattleman's crack is the same.

Alex Green does it quite a bit different as any Aussie in competitive whipcracking will tell you. He starts with an overhead horizontal crack, followed by the reverse circus crack, then finish with the circus crack.

The odd thing about the QLF is that it cannot be repeated in a flowing repitition. That is, once you finish with the last circus crack, you have to set up with the beginning circus crack again. So, there's a bit of an uncomfortable delay.

The_Edge wrote:The Sydney Flash is where you go from a over head horizontal crack into a Fast Figure Eight and finish with a circus.

You are desribing close to what Alex Green calls the QLF. And, that's what other competitive Aussies call the changing planes QLF. Alex's only variance on your description there is that he uses a slow reverse circus crack, not the fast, rear figure 8 crack.

The Sydney Flash is a forward flick, thrown over the shoulder, then a fast time rear cattleman's crack, not a fast figure 8....it's not quite that fast, plus that crack reaches back a little more than the rear FF8 crack.
Then it finishes with a circus/cattleman's crack. Now, this routine can be repeated smoothly because once you finish the last crack you can easily go into the first forward flick.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:23 pm

Robert Duke wrote: The QLF is more regularly known among the Aussies as using cattleman's cracks, but yes, you described it right. The circcs crack and acattleman's crack is the same.

Yeah, I pretty much use Circus crack, Cattleman's crack and Vertical crack interchangeably. Depends on the time of day.

I need to settle on just one.

Robert Duke wrote:The Sydney Flash is a forward flick, thrown over the shoulder, then a fast time rear cattleman's crack, not a fast figure 8....it's not quite that fast, plus that crack reaches back a little more than the rear FF8 crack.
Then it finishes with a circus/cattleman's crack. Now, this routine can be repeated smoothly because once you finish the last crack you can easily go into the first forward flick.

Ahhhh, okay. I always wondered what the name of that routine was. I just had the name of it associated with a different crack. Cool, thanks for clearing that up.

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:26 pm

VP wrote:Pretty OT as I don't have a whip...

No, sitten, kun sellaista alat hommaamaan, ota yhteytta!

Major Mike · Post by **Major Mike** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:00 am

One of the things I found helpful from Mike Murphy's Fundamentals video is the three planes: side, front, and overhead. To learn the "S" crack, practice doing it in the front plane. Your normal cattleman's crack is done at the side, so the whip ends up cracking in front of you. To do it in the front plane, the normal cattleman's crack will crack to the the left, and the reverse cattleman's crack, or "S" crack will crack to the right. Its the same move, just mirror image in the opposite direction, but its easier to see if both cracks are performed in the front plane.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:22 am

Well all very good input. Mr. Duke and Mr. Strain I agree with all your good points. The context of that "S" crack in the video was the Queensland Flash. Even in Australia there seems to be debate on what that means. I agree that there are Figure 8's and Fast Figure 8's that can explain the meaning of the "S" crack. BTW, Alex was the first one I heard that term introduced. There is agreement that it is at least a 3 crack combination. I pictured it as riding on horse back with a situation where you wanted one crack out to the side to get the herd's attention, one right in back to get your horse attention and then off to the front to get the bull's attention. I think that is Alex's reference as well on the tape. I need to listen to it again.

For completeness, I reference the AP&WA Journal for the definition of the Sydney and Queensland Flash:

Number 20, March 1991 - Glen Denholm letter to Ron Edwards pg. 190 Volume #1 of AP&WA
"The Sydney flash as I know it on the Queensland Flash as it is known in the north, was a three crack sequence and some the fellows described it as one for the bullock, one for the horse and one for the bullock again. You crack the whip ordinariy to the front and then follow the whip through to the rear alowing the thong to travel up in the aire and to the front again so as to gain enough energy to crack behind, then just follow through and crack it ordinarily to the front again. By using the method in the front crack, that is the ordinary way we fall a whip, and mirror reversing this to crack behind you, the energy will carry the whip forward again to be ready to crack behind you, the energy will carry the whip forward again to be redy to crack."

To add to the confusion, I remember Mike Murpy telling me that if you start the whip from the side, it is a Sydney Flash. If you start the whip from the horizontal then it is a Queensland Flash.

Anyway, where am I going with this? I visualized this "S" crack when I learned it, by imagining that the 3 crack sequence was performed on the horse to get the attention of the herd, the horse and then the single bull out front. Once I got that visualization, it worked for me 100% of the time. Regardless of what the crack sequence is called, that visualization worked for me.

Just my .02...

-Sergei

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:53 am

I've got the Queensland Flash going OK, although, I'm having a little trouble making my 'S's end up at twelve o' clock. Instead, they end up at 9:00 or 10:00. (12:00 being in front of me).
But, target cutting is gettting better. I've got someone to wear a leather glove, and hold styrafoam strips. It's easier than it looks.

Tennessee R · Post by **Tennessee R** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:50 pm

Renderking Fisk wrote:Holy Cow! How did you get in here? They should check the ID's in this joint better...

Good seeing you here, regardless.

I'm sorry, Renderking. Were you talking to me? I don't understand.