Felt Quality question as well as ribbon and bow and stuff.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:58 am

So when someone orders a Raiders hat the default setting is to give them a ribbon that doesn't look like the movie? They have to ask to get a ribbon that matches what's on screen. Got it.

I just thought that for someone who has gone to such lengths to get THE ribbon, the default setting would be to make it look like the movie. I guess when we are willing to get a beaver hat we already are not getting what we see on screen anyways. If we can step up the quality on felt why not ribbon work. Got it. So I guess we should just be calling these Raiders-esque or Raiders-like hats anyways...

Now me personally, when I order another hat I'm going to go for a Raiders hat. Rabbit fur and crappy stitching and all. Thanks for the clarification.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:52 am

No Hollowpond, By default my customers get a cleaned up version of the Raiders bow/ribbon work. It still looks like it but its cleaned up. Also there was more the the sharp >< in the movie. Just like ther crease is slightly different from scene to scene. If someone asked me for a Raiders hat who wants it creased like the "idol grab," or the "raven bar," or "the Cairo." then I will crease it that way. If the customer just ask me for a Raiders hat and I ask them what scene and they say " I don't care just give me a oval all Raiders look. Another exampl, some people don't want " the turn" and some do. They can have it any way. They have the choice. Again, notice the term " custom hat maker.

I'll see if I can take some photos to show you what I mean. I don't have photos shop so I won't have arrows and such to Point at what I mean so it's going to take me a couple of days to take photos to make my point clear.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:25 pm

Here you go. one pic of a Raiders bow that I use as reference when building my bows. Notice that the top part of the >(the fly V) isn't really showing up. Notice how distressed the hat is. Should I send out a brand new hat were everything is neat and clean, except for the bow????? So, when sending out a brand new hat, I clean up the bow work but it still looks like this.

More pics to come.

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:28 pm

IF that is the picture you use for reference, then you're doing an injustice to what it really should look like, and you know it.
That looks like a stunt hat that has had the living snot kocked out of it.
The "Hero" hats look nothing like that.

If you'd like, I'll go and ahead and pull some more screen shot examples for you.

But based on that image, I see what you are trying to do with your bow, and I have no probelm with that.
I only have a problem with trying to re-define a signature look of something established long ago.

Like I told you in my pm last nght John, James asked a simple question.
You gave him 2 answers that had no relevance what-so-ever.

I gave him an answer with the history of the correct term, Flying V, and some examples.
Why the bow looked like that is beside the fact. If you know that it was done because of sloppy workmanship,
quick fixes by costume designers etc... hey cool.

But we both know that bow can be duplciated cleanly with care proper workmanship.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.

Dalexs

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:29 pm

sorry to correct you again, That is not a stunt hat. I used that image to show you that not all the hats in the movie had a pronounced > to it.

Again, the term "flying V " I don't like. Don't I have the choice not to like it? The term isn't accurate because it doesn't take in account the rest of the bow. You and everyone else can use it if you like but I don't like it. I did try and answers james questions I just went a couple steps further. If James didn't think my answer wasn't good enough he can ask follow up questions. It sounds to me that James wants more then a simple answer and I was trying to take him to it.

Take your own image. Notice that the bottom of your > isn't straight on the bottom of the >. The top is very straight but the bottom has a arc to it. Maybe you draw sloppy Vs.

This is your BOW. it has a very sharp > to it. but that doesn't look like that in the screen hat.

oh, and by the way. The fold to your knot is going the wrong way.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:37 pm

one more thing. Did you happen to read where I said that was "one" of the photos I use.

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:46 pm

BendingOak wrote:one more thing. Did you happen to read where I said that was "one" of the photos I use.

NOPE!

And those arrows ain't mine...

And that other bow I posted is in initial construction for demo purposes.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:47 pm

Look what I found.

Notice the bottom of the > ( and look at that, Im using your term

) The bottom is a arc and the top isn't very prominent.

Look at this shot....

Wheres the top of the V? Heck, look whats happening on the back half of the bow. It's got two creases?

Do you really thing I haven't done my homework. I can tell you how the hat was sewn together on how the starts to pull. The didn't just crease a sharp > into the front half of the bow. They made a very common place bow like a bow tie. because of the placement of the stitches and when they distressed it the ribbon started to pull on those stitches creating what you like to call "the Flying V."

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:47 pm

Please comment on the fact I said one photo I use?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:49 pm

Dalexs wrote:
BendingOak wrote:one more thing. Did you happen to read where I said that was "one" of the photos I use.
NOPE!

And those arrows ain't mine...

And that other bow I posted is in initial construction for demo purposes.

Then why did you slide the knot on backwards?

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:02 pm

I do see a very general "v" or as you say ">" shape on both those bows though. My question is, who would not want a general ">" shape on the front portion of the bow (for a Raiders hat) if that is what is seen throughout the film.

Again, JUST LOOKING FOR CLARIFICATION! It just seems that if gear heads and their ilk are ordering these hats to be as SA as possible, then some semblance of that particular feature would be present. Granted, based on a scene by scene basis it is present in varying degrees, but it does seem to be present throughout the film.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Hollowpond wrote:I do see a very general "v" or as you say ">" shape on both those bows though. My question is, who would not want a general ">" shape on the front portion of the bow (for a Raiders hat) if that is what is seen throughout the film.

Again, JUST LOOKING FOR CLARIFICATION! It just seems that if gear heads and their ilk are ordering these hats to be as SA as possible, then some semblance of that particular feature would be present. Granted, based on a scene by scene basis it is present in varying degrees, but it does seem to be present throughout the film.

I understand your question but I already stated. I make a cleaned up version of it when I'm sending out a brand new hat. it's a little simple logic. the Arc is there and the top part is there but not as pronounced. To have the hat SA as possible you would need a very distressed hat. Most people don't want the distressed hat. Just like there aren't people out there who like "the turn" but I give them the choice/option. What's the problem with having the option. As a hat maker should I copy poor craftmenship on every hat specially when some don't like it?

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:28 pm

John, we get your point. No problem with that. You don't like the Flying V.
And Sorry the backwards knot...
Figured that would be the one thing you'd notice. This was Fun but I gotta get back to work now.

TTFN

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:54 pm

And my point is that your "cleaned up" version is so "cleaned up" it doesn't look like the one on film. I was just wondering why.

I'm out too. Please excuse my inquisitiveness...

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:26 pm

Dalexs wrote:John, we get your point. No problem with that. You don't like the Flying V.
And Sorry the backwards knot...
Figured that would be the one thing you'd notice. This was Fun but I gotta get back to work now.

TTFN

Again, try reading my entire post. I don't like the TERM and I give my customers the options.

yes, the knot. You have to fold the ribbon to make a one inch by inch square to make the knot. The fold should be towards the front of the bow not the back.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:32 pm

Hollowpond wrote:And my point is that your "cleaned up" version is so "cleaned up" it doesn't look like the one on film. I was just wondering why.

I'm out too. Please excuse my inquisitiveness...

again, I give my customers the option.

Look at that. coming from the man himself. I think Steve knows very well how to replicate the bow work on the Raiders hat.

Fedora wrote:Great work John! You know, when I get one of my early hats back for a reblock, I am somewhat embarrassed by my work, in those early days. I can tell from looking at your work, that you are better than I was, when I first started. A natural!

You really refined your bowwork very fast, compared to me!!! Heck, it took me 5 years to make a decent bow. I ain't kiddin' either.

Being a cabinet maker, I was better at making the wood blocks for hats, than actually making the hat itself.

I wanted to wait a bit before I chimed in John. Proud of you my friend, and glad to call you a friend as well. Fedora

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:28 pm

BendingOak wrote:Again, try reading my entire post. I don't like the TERM and I give my customers the options.
.

BendingOak wrote:Thanks for posting those shots. I never liked the " flying V" to me it isn't accurate because it doesn't take in the rest of the bow.

yes, the knot. You have to fold the ribbon to make a one inch by inch square to make the knot. The fold should be towards the front of the bow not the back.

I'm sure that was not on purpose, I was obviously not paying attention when I was shooting the pics for that tutorial.
I just looked at my Fed (the first hat I replaced the ribbon on) and the other hats I've made over the last few years,
and the loops are all correct.
I'll make sure I correct that photo ASAP! You know me, I don't want to be accused of propagating wrong information.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:39 pm

First quote. If I give my customers the option, where's the problem?

Second qoute, so I left out the word term one time while posting. Never make a mistake?

And lastly. if your going to bust my hump on details shouldn't you get your right?

Post by **Dalexs** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:35 pm

BendingOak wrote:...And lastly. if your going to bust my hump on details shouldn't you get your right?

I was young, I was trying to help people... oh well, my bad.

And John, I didn't start out to bust you on you.
Like I said earlier, James asked a simple question about the V, you BO'd him, and I wanted to make sure he
had the right version of historical facts.

John, you know I'll stand behind you if I think you're being unjustly treated.
But I have no problem calling #### on you just as fast.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:33 pm

you need to get you facts straight first.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:55 pm

BendingOak wrote:Some discribe the bow on the a raiders hat as a V. But this is not taken in account the rest of the bow. It is one piece, so the discription V isn't accurate. Steve and I both replicate the bow on the Raiders.

This is all I stated and the stuff hit the fan. Wow, for having a opinion I get my head taken off.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:05 am

John, I guess folks are just puzzled, especially when Steve Delk himself has always referred to the shape in the bow as a flying 'V'. Technically, you're arguing with him, not us.

search.php?keywords=flying+V&terms=all& ... mit=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We get it... you don't like the term....but it's one of those describers that's been in existance long before you ever got into the hat making business and probably even the hobby. Folks have long understood what it was referring to. As Dalexs says, it was a phrase coined back in the mid 1990's when we were all at Indyfan. Steve Delk himself helped coin the term.

Love it or hate it, it's not going to go away.

That said, I'd suggest we swing this topic back to further discussion of topic at hand rather than continuing to beat this one to death.

Regards! Michaelson

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 am

Im really new to this place. Im new to a forum like this as this is the only forum I belong too.

Please do not argue amungst yourselves about the term flying V or how its "supposed" to look or anything. I made this discussion to get some more insight for us newbies in this hat world.

I made this thread so at least I could understand how felt is judged, and how we know its real. I also asked about the Flying V as I read about it in another thread on here. I did not come here to start a huge debate, nor start some feud of people throwing false accusations at one another.

I am probably one of the worst indiana jones fans. I wanted to meet Mr. Harrison Ford for my 30th birthday in 4 months even. I would give ANYTHING to just have a lunch or something with the man. We all know that will never happen and I understand that. I joined this place to connect wth fellow indy fans such as myself. Not make an issue or debate.

If you could please, take the debates to private messages so as not to confuse us newbies getting into all of this. Im sorry if I seem harsh or mean but there is no need to argue amungst yourselves. It is not worth the argument you are all Better people then that.

Anyway, John's hats are great quality and are on par with Steve Delks. They both are the cream of the crop when it comes to indy hats and yes, raiders hats. John does not like the flying V and how it looks on screen as it wasnt made the best back then. He has profected it and makes it to where it fits with his hats as well as built to last.

That does NOT mean that he will NOT put the V in, or the stiching where it is in the indy films or more importantly in raiders. I am sure if I ordered a raiders hat from him and specifically asked for SA including stiching and flying V he would do it. Give people the benefit of the doubt and let us all have our opinions. Just because I lets say do not agree with one of you does not make your opinion any less important then mine. They are both equally important and agree to disagree and walk away, thats what I would do in this situation.

So please lets get back to the topic. By the way I am severely sick IRL right now and may even have to call in to work at both of my jobs due to it.

is how I feel right now. Thanks for your understanding.

is there any way to change my stupid name?

((I would just like to say that if I will the lottery in my lifetime and Harrison is still alive, I will give him a million dollers just to have lunch with me thats how bad I want that

)))

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:35 am

James, don't fret about your thread touching off a debate.

That is what we do around here. Over the years as screen resolution has improved to provide ever greater details of the costume, we've collectively gotten closer and closer to what was used in production.

It has been, and will continue to be, through these 'robust discussions' that all of us benefit from getting the best quality reproductions we can.

Now, get yourself some chicken soup and feel better soon.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:45 am

Yes indeed. As Jeff said, debating things like this is what gets us quality gear. There shouldn't be any hard feelings, but I'll try to behave a little better...

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:53 am

To answer your question, yes, you can change your name. Contact either Dalexs or Mike via PM and they'll help you out. I could do it for you, but it's just easier to go directly to the webmaster.

Agreed with what Jeff and Hollowpond said above with this caveat:

Though I totally agree with what you say, it's also important for 'newbies' to understand where 'we' collectively come from and the where/when/why of our traditions were created. These discussions are important when those type points come up to re-establish their place in our history.

I hope YOU now understand why they occur. This hobby and these Indy related forums have been in existance since 1995, Indygear itself since 2002. A lot of us have been involved since the very beginning, so you're among friends here.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:43 am

M, all I ever said was I don't agree with the term. yes, I know I disagree with STEVE but he also states he thinks I have mastered creating the bow faster then him. most hat size charts are NOT accurate, should I continue to use them? also I'm not the one beating on the issue. I fred to help james with his questions and Dalex jumped all over me for not liking the term. he could have left it alone after his first statement.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:56 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:James, don't fret about your thread touching off a debate.

That is what we do around here. Over the years as screen resolution has improved to provide ever greater details of the costume, we've collectively gotten closer and closer to what was used in production.

It has been, and will continue to be, through these 'robust discussions' that all of us benefit from getting the best quality reproductions we can.

Now, get yourself some chicken soup and feel better soon.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

If thats what we do, why am I being asked to stop?

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:09 pm

Vigorous, but respectful debate, whether in the form of friendly argument, or formal presentation, has been one of our greatest engines for the discovery of truth for thousands of years. As long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks and name calling (which is why a select few around here have the power to delete whatever they choose) there is nothing wrong with sparking a little controversy.

This one caused me to take a close look at the comparisons between the bows on several of my fedoras, some of which, even from the same maker, have a very pronounced "V" shape in the sides of the bows, and some of which do not. Interestingly, the one I wear most, which has been dismantled and reblocked once in its life, and which has seen the most "mistreatment" (not that I beat up on any of them all that much) has the most pronounced "V" of all. And it's one of John's hats.

Comparing John's bows and the ones I have from Steve I have to say I prefer the former, and I don't think the difference in placement of stitching between the Cairo hat, and the "cleaned up" versions makes the cleaned up ones any less accurate or desirable. It's so subtle you wouldn't even notice from 6 feet away.

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:41 pm

I like turtles.

Sent from Free America

Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:26 pm

BendingOak wrote: If thats what we do, why am I being asked to stop?

Who's asking you to stop what?

We requested in your other ribbon thread to not have it get nasty, because that was direction the discussion was
heading in, everyone knows it.

You both carried it over that other forum that has virtually no rules, yet even they split the discussion off when
it starting getting out of hand. So bravo to them.

What folks forget here is that we have a very wide variety of age groups in the memebrship.
So we like to try project our forum as intelligent & mature as possible.

We get messages from parents all the time saying how much they appeciate this.
Heck, we get it from adult members here as well for that matter.

So if we ask folks to dial it back some, we're doing it for a reason.
If folks are not mature enough to understand and appreciate that rational, it's their problem.

Dalexs

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:46 pm

I understand that debating can be a good thing. If its clean then thats ok with me, even in my own threads. I just noticed that it was getting a tab bit intense and I did not want to be the cause of any hard feelings. If you all say there are none then thats good

. No hard feelings here.

Im just glad to finally be able to talk indy stuff with like minded people. People that are much smarter then me in the indy topic.

Anyway the person who can change names contacted me and I hope to hear back from him soon today maybe tomorrow. My first indy hat that is hand made should be here in 2-4 weeks I hope.

Anyone know if harrison ford wants to have lunch?

I told my wife and my parents that, that is what I wanted for my 30th and they told me it was impossible lol. A good laugh never hurts. $\:D/$

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:50 pm

I just don't understand why there is a problem with having options for my customers when it coms to the bow design? and all I said about the therm "flying V" is I don't like it, and I don't think its accurate. Whats the big deal? As for the "term" " Flying V" it may be around these parts for many years it isn't a common term around the rest of the world. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should. and yes, I can disagree with even Steve Delk and still have respect for him. but I'm not going to agree with everything he says just because he's my friend, he has been doing this longer then me and even coined the fraise. If I don't think its accurate disruption, thats my opinion.

M, when you say folks are puzzled, I only see admins, being puzzled??????????

again, to repeat myself because it's really isn't that big a deal. I don't like the term and rather describe it differently so customers have a better understanding of what was going on.and lastly I give my customers the choice/option when it comes to the bow. Just like I give them the choice of having the hat crease off center or straight on or in a another …………term, they can have it with or without the turn. Whats the big deal? I give them the choice on their own hat.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:55 pm

BendingOak wrote:I just don't understand why there is a problem with having options for my customers when it coms to the bow design? and all I said about the therm "flying V" is I don't like it, and I don't think its accurate. Whats the big deal? As for the "term" " Flying V" it may be around these parts for many years it isn't a common term around the rest of the world. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should. and yes, I can disagree with even Steve Delk and still have respect for him. but I'm not going to agree with everything he says just because he's my friend, he has been doing this longer then me and even coined the fraise. If I don't think its accurate disruption, thats my opinion.

M, when you say folks are puzzled, I only see admins, being puzzled??????????

again, to repeat myself because it's really isn't that big a deal. I don't like the term and rather describe it differently so customers have a better understanding of what was going on.and lastly I give my customers the choice/option when it comes to the bow. Just like I give them the choice of having the hat crease off center or straight on or in a another …………term, they can have it with or without the turn. Whats the big deal? I give them the choice on their own hat.

This guys if you look up is what I said exactly. He may not make every hat Screen Accurate as possible as the stiching and the V in the movies were not made the best they can be made back then. So he perfected it and makes it slightly different. However, as he is saying and I said before, if a customer asks, or he asks a customer how they want the bow wihich I am sure he does, the choice is always there. Just because he disgarees with the term and how the stiching is in the films does not mean that he took that option away from his customers.

Also, as everyone knows Opinions are like a rearend, we all have one so there is no use arguing which one is better as they are all equally important.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:56 pm

james73084 wrote:
BendingOak wrote:I just don't understand why there is a problem with having options for my customers when it coms to the bow design? and all I said about the therm "flying V" is I don't like it, and I don't think its accurate. Whats the big deal? As for the "term" " Flying V" it may be around these parts for many years it isn't a common term around the rest of the world. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should. and yes, I can disagree with even Steve Delk and still have respect for him. but I'm not going to agree with everything he says just because he's my friend, he has been doing this longer then me and even coined the fraise. If I don't think its accurate disruption, thats my opinion.

M, when you say folks are puzzled, I only see admins, being puzzled??????????

again, to repeat myself because it's really isn't that big a deal. I don't like the term and rather describe it differently so customers have a better understanding of what was going on.and lastly I give my customers the choice/option when it comes to the bow. Just like I give them the choice of having the hat crease off center or straight on or in a another …………term, they can have it with or without the turn. Whats the big deal? I give them the choice on their own hat.

This guys if you look up is what I said exactly. He may not make every hat Screen Accurate as possible as the stiching and the V in the movies were not made the best they can be made back them. So he prefected it and makes it slightly different. However, as he is saying and I said before, if a customer asks, or he asks a customer how they want the bow wihich I am sure he does, the choice is always there. Just because he disgarees with the tarm and how the stiching is in the fims does not mean that he took that option away from his customers.

Thank you James. thats it , you got it.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:57 pm

james73084 wrote:Anyone know if harrison ford wants to have lunch? I told my wife and my parents that, that is what I wanted for my 30th and they told me it was impossible lol. A good laugh never hurts. $\:D/$

If you can get Ford to agree to meet you for lunch, and let me tag along I'll pay. (Up to 6 people)

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:59 pm

Oh ridge I know you would but I am in oregon.

I would totally give anything to meet the man for lunch

Or even a phone call. I did talk to sean connery on the phone once

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:00 pm

Ridgerunner58 wrote:Vigorous, but respectful debate, whether in the form of friendly argument, or formal presentation, has been one of our greatest engines for the discovery of truth for thousands of years. As long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks and name calling (which is why a select few around here have the power to delete whatever they choose) there is nothing wrong with sparking a little controversy.

This one caused me to take a close look at the comparisons between the bows on several of my fedoras, some of which, even from the same maker, have a very pronounced "V" shape in the sides of the bows, and some of which do not. Interestingly, the one I wear most, which has been dismantled and reblocked once in its life, and which has seen the most "mistreatment" (not that I beat up on any of them all that much) has the most pronounced "V" of all. And it's one of John's hats.

Comparing John's bows and the ones I have from Steve I have to say I prefer the former, and I don't think the difference in placement of stitching between the Cairo hat, and the "cleaned up" versions makes the cleaned up ones any less accurate or desirable. It's so subtle you wouldn't even notice from 6 feet away.

Thank you. Thats why I spend so much time on the phone, e-mails, etc, etc, with customer to learn who they are, what type of hat they are really looking for so I can customize their hat to make them happy. Penman hats isn't a one way for everyone company.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:04 pm

BendingOak wrote:
Ridgerunner58 wrote:Vigorous, but respectful debate, whether in the form of friendly argument, or formal presentation, has been one of our greatest engines for the discovery of truth for thousands of years. As long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks and name calling (which is why a select few around here have the power to delete whatever they choose) there is nothing wrong with sparking a little controversy.

This one caused me to take a close look at the comparisons between the bows on several of my fedoras, some of which, even from the same maker, have a very pronounced "V" shape in the sides of the bows, and some of which do not. Interestingly, the one I wear most, which has been dismantled and reblocked once in its life, and which has seen the most "mistreatment" (not that I beat up on any of them all that much) has the most pronounced "V" of all. And it's one of John's hats.

Comparing John's bows and the ones I have from Steve I have to say I prefer the former, and I don't think the difference in placement of stitching between the Cairo hat, and the "cleaned up" versions makes the cleaned up ones any less accurate or desirable. It's so subtle you wouldn't even notice from 6 feet away.

Thank you. Thats why I spend so much time on the phone, e-mails, etc, etc, with customer to learn who they are, what type of hat they are really looking for so I can customize their hat to make them happy. Penman hats isn't a one way for everyone company.

Aww john it isnt a one size fits all? Or a small meduim and large?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:38 pm

No sir, It as customized as I can make it for each and every person.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:39 pm

james73084 wrote:[
Also, as everyone knows Opinions are like a rearend, we all have one so there is no use arguing which one is better as they are all equally important.

And some stink...

Just kidding.

And John, just so there is no enmity between us, I guess after thinking this over I came up with a better way of asking my question (and probably a new question).

After looking through your albums on Instagram and FB I was shocked at the absence or subtleness of the Flying V (or whatever). I guess I'm just shocked Indy fans would choose a Raiders hat without it, especially on a Cairo. I mean, they want SA dirt but not a bow!?!?!? People are crazy.

On a positive note, your bow work is very nice. And you posted a picture so you obviously know how to make the Flying V (or whatever). Like I said, I was just shocked at how many fans opt out of the Raiders SA bow.

Honestly, I'm shopping right now and I thought you just didn't include it because you don't like it. I'm good now, I just am surprised so many people opt out.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:37 pm

You have to have the understanding that people outside of Indygear doesn't think like you. Also, when I construct what you guys like to call the Flying V. It isnt creased to a V shape. It devolved into a V shape. Which is part of what I was trying to say. The Raiders bow was constructed like a lot of hats are. To look like a gentlemen Bow tie. Because of the way the bow/ ribbon was sewn on and the fact the ribbon shrunk a bit. It developed a slight pull. It started out with just the bottom part that arcs. When the ribbon shrunk a tad it pulled on the threads and a straight line devopled on the top making that > shape but like I stated before the bottom line isn't straight so a calling it a out of shape V maybe but it really isn't a V. Also, what about the back portion of the bow? It has shape aswell but that isn't talked about??? again, thats just me being nit picky and thats what we all do around here.

As for people on how they want there hats. I had a customer, really nice guy who wanted the travel hat turned????? the travel hat wasn't turned but what the heck, its his hat. I try and give my customers as much control over their hats as possible.

If you are in fact interested in a hat. I assure you I can make any shape you want. Did you not read my post before? I give my customers a lot of control when it comes to the Raiders hat. Like I have stated before, you can have the hat creased off center or not, it's your choice. I have my favorite way but it may not be yours.

one more thing. I don't pos all my hats. Some people get tired of seeing the same hat over and over so I pick and choose what I share. Most of the time I try and show hats that people haven't seen a million times. I had people on Facebook ask me to post my hats as I finish them. I did and had people complain that I was posting the same hat over and over. Why, because I make a lot of Indy hats ( a lot of Raiders hats) and it appears thatI keep making the same hat over and over. so, I then started limiting what I posted.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:58 pm

I haven't even looked at this thread since 7 a.m., and when I come back I find this is still rambling on, and I've been mentioned not once, but twice, as if you were trying to bait me into an argument with you today.

If it doesn't matter to you as you say, John, then drop it and move on. I already have as I really DON'T care one way or the other, but I had to say something so our new member would at least understand why this discussion even got rolling. Good grief.

Regards! M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:05 pm

questions have been asked, so I'm answering them.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:39 pm

I am going to try and get this thread back on track if you dont mind.

The stiching, how is it done, what is it made out of. Same with the bow thing and the ribbon that goes around the hat. How is it put on and such? What is the likelyness that the ribbon and or bow would eventually fall off and if it does, how does one get it fixed.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:13 pm

On a handmade custom hat the ribbon and bow are tacked on with carefully placed stitches that fasten them to the felt body. The stitches are placed so they are not very noticeable unless you are looking for them. I imagine they use rayon thread but John would be the best to confirm.

Like anything that's sewn on if you pull it you can break the threads or pull them out.

As for likelihood of it happening by accident? I've been collecting and wearing felt hats for over 40 years and it hasn't happened to me yet. I did have one arrive missing a stitch once and had to put the missing one in, so if it happens it's not a big deal.

BTW the ribbon and bow are separate parts that look like one piece.

Post by **Dalexs** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:33 pm

Ridgerunner58 wrote:...BTW the ribbon and bow are separate parts that look like one piece.

Not always the case... it can be made with 1 big piece of ribbon. But it is often easier to do it with 2.

BendingOak wrote:The Raiders bow was constructed like a lot of hats are. To look like a gentlemen Bow tie. Because of the way the bow/ ribbon was sewn on and the fact the ribbon shrunk a bit. It developed a slight pull. It started out with just the bottom part that arcs. When the ribbon shrunk a tad it pulled on the threads and a straight line devopled on the top making that > shape but like I stated before the bottom line isn't straight so a calling it a out of shape V maybe but it really isn't a V.

Now this is the first piece of interesting information to come out of this thread.

John, is this your professional opinion or is this based on first hand data from Swales or such?
I'd be interested in why you think this the case.
The V is seen throughout the movie, and if we were to grab the shooting schedule, I suspect
we'd see that the hat early in the shooting schedule, being on the newer side, wouldn't naturally be in this condition.
And this bow design has been seen on brand new Poets in the early 80's.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:10 am

The raiders hat was is a three piece. The rap around, the now and the knot. Most do it this was because it uses less material. I like the two piece. The rap around and bow are one and the knot is two.

As for the thread. Hat makers and factories use all different types. I use a thread that isn't normally used on hats. It's very strong, I tried to break it with my hands and lacerated my fingers. It also won't rote from water or sweat. It's a bit of a over kill for hats but when you tag line is bulldog tough, well you get the point.

I have a photo or two on my shops computer and I'll post them in the morning.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:10 pm

How is your stuff different then steve's john? Like how is your stiching stronger then his?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:03 pm

james73084 wrote:How is your stuff different then steve's john? Like how is your stiching stronger then his?

It's hard to explain how we both sew our ribbon on without a photo by photo layout or in person. As for the thread we both use the same thread to sew our sweatbands on but I use that same thread for the ribbon and liner (Steve does not). It's over kill for a ribbon and liner but it is more likely one of my hats that the ribbon or liner would rip then the thread breaking. I hop that helps.