Felt Quality question as well as ribbon and bow and stuff.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:35 am

This just came to my mind. Thought I would make a discussion out of it.

I know NOTHING about rabbit or beaver felt nor do I know how to get it OR if its even made out of rabbit or beaver, OR what is the best most durable felt on the planet (I think its made out of the animal and about 90% certian but not 100% sure)

Anyway regarding felt. I know some hat makers will not devulge where one gets their felt. However how would one know the quality of the felt in question? How does one know its rabbit or beaver? If its beaver or rabbit, is there a....shall we say a felt quality meter?

Bottom of the barrel crappy felt on the bottom, cream of the crop felt at the top, and a large set of felt quality in between?

Kinda random questions but it seemed like a good topic to post. Since I am new here I see that any of this could help others make a decision.

I just kinda want to know how us purchasers of these great hats would know, we got the best quality felt there is. Basically how can a potential buyer KNOW what they are getting.

Is there also felt out there that is years old that would say be more expencive then felt gathered recently (An example being a 1963 Chevy Nova restored to original factory condition with the exception of a small block 350 with 500 horse power, compared to a new Chevy 2014 Camaro.) If that makes any sense.

((Please note that I am not asking hat makers to post where they get their materials.))

The next question is a little more interesting to me. Its the ribbon on the indy hat that goes around the hat its self (I have NO idea what this is called LOL)
The above questions apply to ribbom as well. Old and new ribbon? Is there like a quality meter in the ribbon? What is it usually made out of.

Last but not least if the ribbon is made of different stuff what is the best? Thanks

lets discuss.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:48 am

That's no secret. Most of our high end hat makers, including our own, get their felt from the Winchester Hat Co., located in my county seat of Winchester, Tennessee.

Regards! Michaelson

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:42 am

To add to our esteemed Knower of Things, Michaelson's info...

First, I am NOT a hatter, and do not work in the business. However, I am a "hat guy" in that I wear a hat every day and have a formidable collection. I'm also the former owner of almost a many hats as I currently own.

The secret is in the felting process. Then, even with quality felt, the hat making process will have an effect. The custom hatters know how to do it right, for the best combination of a durable hat made of good felt. Mass produced hats often suffer shrinking and tapering of the felt much more than custom lids, due at least in part to the hat making process. If you don't plan to get the hat wet, or abuse it much, an off-the-shelf stetson will do you fine. If you want something that can take the weather, daily wear, and be passed down to your children... custom or pre-80's vintage would be the way to go (in my opinion).

The rabbit vs. beaver argument is an old one. Beaver usually comes out on top as the better felt, and I'm inclined to agree. Still, rabbit felt done right can be equal to beaver for the purposes of the average hat wearer. Most mass produced fur felt hats are rabbit, or a rabbit blend. The low-priced hats are wool felt. That's your throw-away level. A custom hatter can tell you exactly what type of felt he/she offers, so you're never in the dark about that.

Vintage, or "experienced"? Well, vintage felt was made better, so it stands the test the time better. But "experienced" junk is still junk. I wouldn't buy an 80's off-the-shelf hat in need of a reblock, but I wouldn't mind a 60's lid as long as the felt itself was undamaged.

Ribbon... the older stuff was better. I forget the composition, but they just worked better for hat purposes. If the chance for vintage ribbon there, take it.

Overall, you don't always get what you pay for, but relatively, yes. I find most mass-produced fur felt hats to be overpriced, except Akubra. They simply make the most durable off-the-shelf hats I've ever known. The price you'll pay for a custom hats, and the relation between rabbit and beaver, is about right. The main thing is, be honest about what you'll put your hat through. If you aren't sure, start cheap.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:45 am

You'll also find rabbit a bit cooler in warmer weather vs beaver, as it's not as tightly woven when the cone is created.

Regards! Michaelson

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:47 am

Felt is basically matted animal fur. The finer the individual fibers are the finer the felt is.

Generally felt for good hats is made from rabbit fur, beaver fur or a blend. Some higher end felts include mink. Mark Kitter made a couple of hats with a lot of mink in them a few years ago and you can buy hats from Art Fawcett currently that are made with his Legacy felt which has a lot of mink in it. I think they go for around $1,200 a copy but you can verify at Vintage Sillhouettes

At the other end of the spectrum, lower quality felt is made from wool, which is much coarser, hotter and does not perform well.

You can pretty much tell beaver from rabbit by visual inspection and definitely from touch. Beaver is denser and softer whereas rabbit is a bit coarser, lighter and breathes more.

As Michaelson said, many high end hatters get their felt from Winchester. John Penman says he gets his from three different sources. I've never asked who the other two are since I trust him to use the best materials he can get.

Aged felt tends to be more stable than fresh felt in terms of tapering, but high quality felt is pretty stable stuff and if you keep the hat and get it reblocked a time or two it will stabilize on its own.

There is a long thread recently about the ribbon. Penman Hats and Adventurebilt both use a high quality vintage style rayon ribbon which is reportedly made by a maker who produced the ribbon used by Swayne Adeney on the original Herbert Johnson hats used In the original movie. Art Fawcett has a huge collection of vintage ribbon that he uses on his hats. Modern ribbon has cotton in it and there is a noticeable difference.

There are also differences in the weight of the felt, the type of sweatbands used, the stitching, the amount and type of stiffener used in the felt, the way the bows are handled, and major differences in how the hats are blocked and finished. I and any number of people here could go on for pages on any of them.

If you poke around in the Fedora section for a while you'll come across a lot of it. At the end of the day if you get your hands on the two or three (if you count wool) main types of hats you'll see the difference immediately.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:41 am

There really isn't such a thing as a scale for felt or ribbon.

you could break it down in animal hair first.

wool, nutria, rabbit, beaver. Moving from the least to the best. There of course are blends and they would fall in-between what they are blended. I don't think I have ever seen blends jump. Example, I have never seen a nutria blended with beaver. Rabbit/Beaver yes, nutria/rabbit but not nutria/beaver.

There are different types of rabbit hair. That played a role as well. As well as hair from the beavers belly.

Mink, can be added but at very low amounts. Just a few %.

as for ribbon, this is even harder to understand.

I use both vintage ribbon and ribbon made today that is made 100% like the high quality ribbon that most custom hat makers seek.

I think that the descriptions of ribbon need to change so people have a better understanding.for example some will say they use 100% vintage quality ribbon. What does that mean? it must be at least 50 years old. What does that tell us? nothing really, just that its old. There was great quality then as well as poor quality. doesn't really tells us much does it.

100% Rayon with with a ridge count of 32 is what we are mostly looking for when we say vintage. But, There were blends back then as well as now. There are synthetics mostly today but there are blends being made today. Most of the ribbon today have a ridge count of 15-16 because of the amount of material needed to be used due to the blends. 50 years or so when the blends and the synthetics started to be more common place used. The machines to spin them had to change.

I could go on for days about ribbon. I hope this helps some.

John

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhfK98f5S00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:52 pm

Wow I was not expecting that much info. I am very pleased with the responses. If you guys want to go into more detail I would be very curous to learn more.

Now I have only had one indiana jones hat myself. I bought it at disneyland next to the indy ride. It was one of those official ones. I dont know if it was felt or not, I dont know about the ribbon at all or what material it was made out of.

I can say that my head sweat in it as it does in any hat I wear when its over 100 degrees outside. From the sounds of it, beaver and rabbit will breath more cool.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:19 pm

More than likely it was a Dorfman Pacific made out of wool. That was their stock and trade at the time, and about all they sold at the park.

Let's put it this way....you're currently waiting for your SECOND Indy fedora from Penman.

You've essentially gone from driving a high milage/rusted out Yugo to owning a showroom fresh fully loaded Bentley. Prepare for culture shock.

Regard! Michaelson

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:34 pm

Yeah, the Disney is probably wool felt, unless you solidly crossed the $100 mark. At those hot temps, though, you're going to sweat when wearing animal hair on your head. No way out of it. If you're like me, just standing next to a felt hat in summer will make you sweat! But yes, rabbit fur will be cooler than beaver, which is normally cooler than wool.
Important note, however. Wool felt may feel hotter in the heat, but it doesn't keep out the cold as well as rabbit or beaver. I can attest to that from personal experience. You probably wouldn't notice the difference if you never experienced fur felt, but switching back to wool felt after a while with something better and...

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:54 pm

I think the hat at disney was around $80 or so. I wore it in rain, snow, anything until if flew off my head over a cliff and into a lake. I can not wait to feel beaver felt.

So does every hatter use the same quality of ribbon on their lids? I really am interested to know of the material of most ribbon from back in the day as well as what they use these days.

I do not know what a ridge count or anything is

.

Has anyone ever experienced their ribbon coming off from the hat? If that happens what needs to be done to get it fixed?

Also how is the ribbon attached to the hat? Is it just attached at one place whole the rest of it just isnt attached and sitting there? Or is it put into place at multiple places around the hat? I know some hatters do not use sewing machines so it is stiched on by hand or glued on?

I am just curious and hope that this tread will help newbies like me learn more.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:01 pm

Needless to say, almost all your questions will be answered when you have your new hat 'in hand'. Ribbons are tacked in several places so you don't have to worry about them coming off. John hand sews his hats.

As to the $80 hat, well factor in you were also paying the Disney park price, so I'm still voting 'wool'.

Regards! Michaelson

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Thanks Michaelson

i just cant wait

Im not sure what I am more excited for. My house to get its permits approved by our builder to finally start building, or my new hat LOL

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:27 pm

M is right. The first time I held a handmade beaver felt hat, I was like, "ooooohhhhh, that's what a hats supposed to be like..."

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:27 pm

james73084 wrote:I think the hat at disney was around $80 or so. I wore it in rain, snow, anything until if flew off my head over a cliff and into a lake. I can not wait to feel beaver felt.

So does every hatter use the same quality of ribbon on their lids? I really am interested to know of the material of most ribbon from back in the day as well as what they use these days.

I do not know what a ridge count or anything is .

Has anyone ever experienced their ribbon coming off from the hat? If that happens what needs to be done to get it fixed?

Also how is the ribbon attached to the hat? Is it just attached at one place whole the rest of it just isnt attached and sitting there? Or is it put into place at multiple places around the hat? I know some hatters do not use sewing machines so it is stiched on by hand or glued on?

I am just curious and hope that this tread will help newbies like me learn more.

ridge count = when you get your hat from Steve, you will notice the ribbon has ridges on it. it isn't just a flat piece of material.

hat makers use all different levels of quality of ribbon and sew them on in a number of different ways. It's one of the ways I can tell who made a hat when people post " guess that hat." The way a ribbon is sewn is a signature( in a way) of the hat maker.

Like I posted before there are really more then two categories of ribbon. it really is hard to tell someone the difference of quality of ribbon without having everything in front of you.

Ridgerunner58 · Post by **Ridgerunner58** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:51 pm

Hollowpond wrote:M is right. The first time I held a handmade beaver felt hat, I was like, "ooooohhhhh, that's what a hats supposed to be like..."

Took the words right out of my mouth. . . . . (Or fingers as the case may be.)

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:05 pm

So in another thread I noticed that there was a different type of way to make the ribbon, something like a v or something? Anyone know how John and AB makes theirs? I can not seem to find it on their websites.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:30 pm

Some discribe the bow on the a raiders hat as a V. But this is not taken in account the rest of the bow. It is one piece, so the discription V isn't accurate. Steve and I both replicate the bow on the Raiders.

Post by **Dalexs** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:16 pm

Actually, the term is really Flying V, and goes back to sometime before 2002.
It was coined back on Indyfan.com many years ago.

An apt explanantion
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VP wrote:Look at the bow and turn your head 90 degrees left. It's that V shape right before the knot. It looks like you have it.

It refers to the front part of the bow design used in Raiders.
It wasn't seen quite as prominently in the other movies, if at all.

This gives you a good idea of whatwe're talking about.

Pyro gave a great description here
http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Screen Used has a great compilation of shots where you can really make it out.
https://www.screenused.com/?sectionID=m ... ndyHat.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Probably a bit over-exaggerated, but you get the idea

I think unless you specifically ask for it, most make the bow now a bit more relaxed,
without the top part of the V shaped out.

John, I couldn't find a good example of yours in the recent post 'm pages,
would you mind posting one for reference?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:45 am

Thanks for posting those shots. I never liked the " flying V" to me it isn't accurate because it doesn't take in the rest of the bow. The hat you posted with the relaxed box is what you see in most of the movie. The bow should look like a bow tie. You get to the point of the really distressed shot the the V is more pronounced.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:42 am

BendingOak wrote:Thanks for posting those shots. I never liked the " flying V" to me it isn't accurate because it doesn't take in the rest of the bow. The hat you posted with the relaxed box is what you see in most of the movie. The bow should look like a bow tie. You get to the point of the really distressed shot the the V is more pronounced.

How can you possibly make a statement like that?
You, yourself said it is a Raiders hat thing... in fact it's been well established throughout the years that it is almost a trademarked look of the Raiders hat.

Go scan thru http://movie-screencaps.com/raiders-lost-ark-1981/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it's clearly evident in almost every scene in that movie.
(The sea plane hat withstanding.)

The fact that you don't like it is besides the point.
Saying it's not accurate is the most ludicrous thing you could possibly say as a hatter trying to replicate such an iconic
piece of history.

The other movies are a completely different story. And if you said that about them, I'd have to agree with you.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:46 pm

Your taking me the wrong way. I don't like the term " flying V" not that it wasn't accurate. The term only is looking at part of the bow. There is the other half to account for.

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:59 pm

BendingOak wrote:Your taking me the wrong way. I don't like the term " flying V" not that it wasn't accurate. The term only is looking at part of the bow. There is the other half to account for.

I think I understand what you are saying here. If I interpret this correctly the 'flying V,' if you will, is but just a part of the entire bow portion of the ribbon...somewhat like achieving a good 'dimple' in a neck tie, if you will. However, in this case -- the bow is an 'add-on' and not a tied portion of the ribbon, as would be in a neck tie. W>

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:48 pm

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:46 am

Oh, I see the misunderstanding... you think this is what is referred to as the flying V (or V in your book)

Yeah, no...
Go back and re-read your Indiana Jones hat history...

It has always been maintained that

Pyroxene wrote:The “Flying V” ... It is where 2 creases in the material flare out from the center of the bow.

Go back and reread se of Fedoras posts from 2002, you'll see what I mean.

And the pinched knot, in all variations, is nothing special, it's been around since long before our time...
New York City - 1932

1948

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:05 pm

So, John, do you not put the Flying V on your Raiders hats? I was looking through your Instagram account and I didn't see any that looked like the above pictures.

Just wondering, since I really thought that was a central feature of that hat.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:25 pm

That Stetson ad... Nowadays $12.50 won't even buy a pair of socks. A quality fur felt fedora costs the same as a monthly car payment.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:38 pm

Yeah, but $12.50 in 1948 was equal to $122 in 2014 dollars. Considering an annual wage two years later was $3210, it was still a large purchase for a house budget.

You could buy a new car for around $900, so it was STILL a car payment back then.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:24 pm

Yeah, but your house only cost you $700 bucks!

My neighbors across the street spent almost half a million on a nearly exact model!

But I digress...

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:37 pm

Yep. Price is aways relevent to its time period.

Regards. M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:52 pm

Dalex, I know what everyone means by the term " flying V" This > is not a V . And it is only the front part of the bow.

I know the history, try and give me the benefit of the doubt.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Hollowpond wrote:So, John, do you not put the Flying V on your Raiders hats? I was looking through your Instagram account and I didn't see any that looked like the above pictures.

Just wondering, since I really thought that was a central feature of that hat.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:02 pm

Hollowpond wrote:So, John, do you not put the Flying V on your Raiders hats? I was looking through your Instagram account and I didn't see any that looked like the above pictures.

Just wondering, since I really thought that was a central feature of that hat.

Not all of my hats are posted.

I do when it comes to the Cairo hat.

The sharp V isn't on every hat in the movie.

The V on its side is a product of where the stitches was place and the ribbon shrinking on the hat. The result was the bows pulling making that shape. It wasn't created in. I will follow the stitches and pull the bow so it makes that V shape sharply.

I don't copy the poor stitching on my hats and that includes the Raiders hat. I hide the stitches and make the bow more relaxed and natural. For a Cairo hat I place the stitches exactly where they were in the movie and pull the bow tighter when building.

I also don't use a three piece bow/knot/rap around like the movie except for the Cairo.

For all my standard Raiders I use a two piece. It's much cleaner.

I hope that clears things up.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:06 pm

It does.

BUT, if our goal is a film repro wouldn't we want to copy every nuance? Not being argumentative, just looking for clarification on that...

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:09 pm

Another name should really be used. maybe the flying Vs as the crease in the cairo looks like this >< with the knot being in the middle of the two Vs.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:23 pm

BendingOak wrote:I know the history, try and give me the benefit of the doubt

.

John, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when I started looking around for all the "Raiders" hats
posted by members here, as Hollowpond found, I found nothing that fully replicated it.

I know you've been around long enough to know what the score is, but making up reasons (poor stitching...)
for a particular look, doesn't float well with me. I call it an excuse.

I've seen a number of your hats up close, and have yet to see anything that completely wows me.
Those hats I posted above are yours and honestly, I don't really see anything extra special about them.

Dalexs

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:25 pm

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:26 pm

Thank you, now was that so difficult?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:30 pm

Dalexs wrote:
BendingOak wrote:I know the history, try and give me the benefit of the doubt
.

John, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when I started looking around for all the "Raiders" hats
posted by members here, as Hollowpond found, I found nothing that fully replicated it.

I know you've been around long enough to know what the score is, but making up reasons (poor stitching...)
for a particular look, doesn't float well with me. I call it an excuse.

I've seen a number of your hats up close, and have yet to see anything that completely wows me.
Those hats I posted above are yours and honestly, I don't really see anything extra special about them.

Dalexs

wow,

Im not making up anything. I choose not to replicate poor stitching. Thats done by choice. I never made the claim of making the most SA Raiders hat. I want to make the most SA Raiders hat but the way it should have been made if one put a little more effort in. Like hiding the stitches, not putting the tack down stitches above the sweatband stitches so that the ribbon doesn't slide up and show the stitches where the sweatband was sewn on.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:31 pm

Dalexs wrote:Thank you, now was that so difficult?

no, not really. I just had to look past the first page and the last page of the Penman posted up thread.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:33 pm

John,

Would you mind posting a close-up of examples of both bow styles you are talking about?

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:39 pm

Which scenes are the flying v the most prominent?

(I know, I know...I should know this stuff.

)

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:42 pm

Hollowpond wrote:Which scenes are the flying v the most prominent?

(I know, I know...I should know this stuff. )

the more distressed the hat, the more the V becomes prominent.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:50 pm

So OBVIOUSLY SOC, but I see it in the idol grab and on the truck chase too. If it is there in varying amounts throughout the film, wouldn't we want it on our repros? Again, just asking for clarification...

Post by **Dalexs** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:50 pm

BendingOak wrote: the more distressed the hat, the more the V becomes prominent.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here.

Go thru the 70+ of the screen caps here:
http://movie-screencaps.com/raiders-lost-ark-1981/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(you can probably skip every 5 or so...) and the "Flying V" is prominent on every hat in the movie.
The hat was made with that bow from the start. It didn't become that way.

I make that bow without pulling the snot out of my bows.
And I'm 50. My eyes ain't that great! So that's gotta say something...

Here's one prior to attaching it to the hat...

Yes, pulling the end tacks a bit off the center knot tack, give it a much more SA look, but it is not required.
(And FYI, there is only a single stitch holding that in place under the knot.)

ChrisMD · Post by **ChrisMD** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:59 pm

Here is one that is kinda in the middle. Looks like the >< is there though.

Also a great picture of the jacket!

Sent from Free America

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:34 pm

Dalexs wrote:
BendingOak wrote: the more distressed the hat, the more the V becomes prominent.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here.

Go thru the 70+ of the screen caps here:
http://movie-screencaps.com/raiders-lost-ark-1981/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(you can probably skip every 5 or so...) and the "Flying V" is prominent on every hat in the movie.
The hat was made with that bow from the start. It didn't become that way.

I make that bow without pulling the snot out of my bows.
And I'm 50. My eyes ain't that great! So that's gotta say something...

Here's one prior to attaching it to the hat...

Yes, pulling the end tacks a bit off the center knot tack, give it a much more SA look, but it is not required.
(And FYI, there is only a single stitch holding that in place under the knot.)

OK! I see where you are coming from too...and agreed, yes the 'movie hats,' did and do look this way, as done by whomever applied the ribbon. What I believe John is trying to suggest and present here, is that he is striving to make the 'hat(s),' be and look they way they should have been, not the way Hollywood chose to go. If you want 'SA' great, I am quite certain that John or most other professional hatters would do their best to provide this for you. If you want quality for the overall look and 'attitude,' if you will, of the hat, then I would think, personally, that Mr. Penman's hats, as he designates his bow/ribbon styling too be, is a much better match for true vintage hats. And, John is correct regarding 'distressing, etc. + overall age of the hats and the usage they have had, because some of my older fedora's are starting to show many signs of age -- lighter colour, the ribbon shrinking and looking more this way, etc. But, with all of them, except for my HJ, none have the bow tacked on like the movie hats. And, for what it is worth -- I am grateful for this! Much cleaner and much more precision to the works! Just my two cents. Hope I don't blow this thread up any more with these thoughts

. W>

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:57 pm

WConly, thank you. Exactly.

At some point I made the choice to make the best fedoras I can make. Use the best materials I could find. Refining my skills to put the hats together the best I could do. If that is my goal to do that, why would I put tackdown stitches half way up the ribbon???? It wouldn't be serving its purpose. So, I decided to put the tackdown stitches where they should be not like that of the movie (Raiders). Also to put the stitches for the bows in the corner to hide them. I don't only make Raiders hat, it's just part of my business. I want all my hats to be sewn on neatly. I made that choice to make my Indy hats as SA as possible but clean them up to what I think they should be.

Now if someone wants the stitches exactly like the movie. That's why I offer the Cairo.

Also, I know this is tricky for some to get but I'm a ................ Wait for it...........

CUSTOM HATTER. Meaning, I can customize the hat to the customers liking.

And to all a good night.

John

.

IndyJames · Post by **IndyJames** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:09 am

-_-

I did not bring up the V to start an argument. It was more for a newbie wanting to learn more.

As for John's hats. I can say with 100% confidence that they are one of the best quality hats you can purchase. The other person who is on par with John is Steve Delk. The person I ordered my first Indiana Jones hat from that should arrive sometime this year.

Mind you my wife thinks that paying $500-$700 for a hat is downright insane, I am content with my purchase and will purchase more hats in the future. My mom who was born in 1949 however understands that a good hat is not about looks per-say but about the quality. A badeball cap these days last a year, maybe two but thats it (Please note that this has been my experience and others can differ from mine). I am hoping that my Steve hat as well as the hat I will be ordering from John will last well over that.

So to those who do not see how John's hats are not impressive, I say to you look again.

So some hats are stamped (Fine Fur Felt) some are stamped (Rabbit felt) and some are stamped (beaver felt). My question is, how does one know 100% sure? Not to cause an argument was just curious. I know if John and or Steve tell me its beaver, I believe it and go on about my day. However as life is, there will always be that one person out there who needs assurance and 100% proof so. John how would you go about giving the person proof? How would Steve if you know? Anyway, hope that clears up some stuff.

Last thing, is there any way to change my name as this one to me is quite stupid. Thanks

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 am

James, no need to say sorry. You didn't start anything. You asked a couple of questions and I tried to answer them but I don't always do a good job of it and people take me the wrong way.

I was only trying to say that I didn't like the term flying V for the discription of the bow because it doesn't take in account of the rest of the bow. There is more to that bow then the front portion. It's my opinion but for some reason it sets people off. It sets people off when I say the ribbon was sewn on poorly but it was. Tackdown stitches are ment to keep the bottom of the ribbon flush with the brim break but Swales used a sewing machine to sew it and the machine can't get in the corner ( where brim and crown meet). That's why the ribbon slid up and you could see the sweatband stitching. I guess people see it as being disrespectful to the Raiders hat and/or to Swales. It's not, I'm just stating a fact. You can see it easily in screen grabs. I don't want to replicate it on my my hats and decided to have two offerings. 1, a clean well sewn on ribbon, nice and clean like I think it should be and then my Cairo where I try and put the stitches where they were on the movie hat.

When it comes to the felt. Anyone can put anything on a stamp of a sweatband. I use fine fur felt because I can use one stamp for any felt I use. I have seen stamps say " handmade" and the hat was made in a factory with a blocking machine, a pouncing machine and every part of the trimmings were sewn in with machine. again, I'm not criticizing anything just trying to point out that anyone can print anything they want on a sweatband, That's not proof of what a material is. I know that's not really what you were looking for but it is how it is.

Just like the statement " vintage ribbon. Just because it's old doesn't necessary mean it's great quality. That's kinda the reason I don't like some of the terms being used. They don't really help the customer to have a good understanding. again, not criticizing anyone,there just isn't a clear easy way to break things down so easily.

When you get Steve's hat you will see the difference between the felt of the hat you have and what Steve is made.

James, if you want you can always call me 971-246-8132. It's easier for me to explain some your questions by phone. I can sew and talk with you at the same time. Its kinda hard to type and work but Bluetooth is a Hugh help for me.

I think some have forgotten that I was a fan before the hat making thing exploded on me. That I do try and come in here as a fan with a bit more knowledge now that I have several years making under my belt. I don't think people see it that way. Maybe some will never be able to see me as anything but a salesmen. Maybe it's my poor job at putting them into words. I also don't have photos shop to show a lot of things that really need images to explain.

Ok, time for me to go. Someone has to get up in the morning and make the hats.