Small Jacket Detail

[Bdgsi11]

Just an observation I made. How far from the zipper should the right pocket measure for a true Raiders jacket? Every time I glance at my jacket I just can't help but notice how much distance there is from the edge of the pocket to the zipper edge. What are your thoughts, though? Is there a set screen accurate measurement for this specific jacket feature or am I just showing too much concern for something that is completely subjective? In my opinion, the pocket and pocket placement is what helps to either make or break a Raiders jacket.

[Texan Scott]

you get a taste of it here:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm556972800/t ... i_all_sf_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure some screen grabs could help, but part of it is that the right pocket is positioned relative to the storm flap. When it is zipped, everything is fine, but unzipped it can look askew. The right one compensates for the storm flap. Lay the storm flap flat and measure the pocket seams on both sides to the edge of the storm flap. They should be really close. Most of my Raiders repros have snaps at the bottom partially for that reason.

[CM]

The G&B jackets of recent years changed pocket position of the right hand pocket (when worn). To my taste and from screen shots, it is placed too close to the zip by slightly more than half an inch. To clarify, I'm also talking about the pocket on the non-windflap side. The Kelso spacing appears more accurate.

[Indiana Jeff]

Second, is the question of whether or not pocket placement is a standard measurement. In my opinion, no; the pocket size and placement should be adjusted in regard to jacket size. I would hope that a size 36 and a size 52 jacket would have different sized pockets and placement or they would look odd.

Though the Kelso jackets were directly copied from a Nowak that was directly copied from a screen used jacket, that accuracy is only going to translate exactly to the copies if copies are in Ford's size.

If not, then it becomes dependent upon the pattern maker's skill in adjusting the pattern for larger, smaller, shorter and taller versions. This requires an artistic eye to be able to make it a much different size yet still appear to look "right."


Michael

Exactly what I was going to say. Same with the fedora. The dimensions of crown height and brim width need to be adjusted to accommodate the overall size of the hat.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Obi Sean Kenobi]

Out of curiosity, which leather/skin is that on your Kelso jacket? The grainy lamb?

Looks great!

I remember your wested hero in crispe and this jacket fits you soooooo much better.

The pockets do look a tad off, but only because you pointed it out. Not noticeable.

Osk

[Bdgsi11]

Thank you for the kind comments. I guess what's really bothering me is that I came so close to having a jacket that was proportionately sized to fit me while obtaining a ultimately screen accurate appearance and the pocket placement is kind of throwing off the look for me. It's a little disheartening in a sense because that's my only complaint about it.

[Kt Templar]

The pocket placement on the non stormflap side is supposed to be further away then on the stormflap side. When the jacket is zipped up the flap is in the centre and the 2 pockets should look equally spaced.



Don't worry so much!



(Your zipper is a bit far from the bottom of the jacket though....)

[Bdgsi11]

Just for clarification: (Someday I'll learn it's easier to keep my mouth shut in the first place! Saves time and energy later, trying to apologize, explain or clarify! )

1) Bdgsi11, your jacket looks perfect! When I looked at it last night, I was squinting into my iPhone screen. Today, in the light of day and a large monitor screen, it looks absolutely stunning, (as I recall thinking back when you got it!!!) As you know better than me, Bill Kelso and Company have spent countless hours studying jackets and screen shots in order to produce the ultimate Indy jacket in every detail. However, there is no way anyone can mimic the jacket exactly when translating it into different sizes. A size 54 jacket, or a size 34 jacket cannot look exactly like a size 40 jacket. But Bill Kelso did an unbelievable job adjusting the jacket to your frame.

2) Last night, when you pointed out this detail, I automatically compared it to my jacket, not Indy's jacket. I have seen and studied my Expedition way more than I have studied screen shots! My eyes have gotten "used to" the look of my Expedition, my only Indy jacket. So, any deviation from your jacket to what's in my mind's eye was relating to that image, not the film jacket.

3) I only mentioned my Expedition in my first post above because, (as I said) I simply like G&B's version of this jacket, in this case, the pocket size and placement. I was in no way suggesting that the Expedition is the yardstick which all Indy jackets should be measured against for screen accuracy.

4) As I've mentioned before, Screen Accuracy is simply one of many tools to get a final result. Screen Accuracy is never my final goal; the final goal for me, is a piece of gear, clothing or prop that I am pleased with in every way. For example, a Screen Accurate Grail Diary contains three repeated sections. I want one continuous story, as I imagine the real thing to be. A Screen Accurate Idol would be cast from "something" and then gold plated. I want one that is cast from a metal, as I imagine the real thing to be.

This translates to my ultimate Indy jacket in a similar way. Screen Accuracy was just one of many tools that G&B used to come up with a reasonable facsimile of the Raiders jacket. It seems to me that G&B found a balance between pleasing both the "stitch counters" and also your "average Joe" who just wants a cool looking, quality Indy jacket. So, with the Expedition, Screen Accuracy may suffer because something is improved aesthetically or for quality or durability's sake. Such as, the way the adjustable side straps are securely mounted, or the action back in the lining or the black oxide rectangular "D" rings. Even the collar and pockets; I'm not a fan of large collars or huge pockets and apparently, G&B isn't either. So the look, quality, feel, durability, price and warranty of the Expedition simply appeals to me. Though G&B describes the Expedition as a "precise replica" and "absolutely correct," I'm a grown up and know the difference between marketing jargon and fact.

The thing for you, Bdgsi11, and for me (and all of us really) is to find the jacket that appeals to us personally, regardless of pedigree, price or screen accuracy. Personally, I think you found your jacket! Like KT said, "Don't worry so much!!!"

It was never my intention to compare the Expedition to the Kelso. Both are terrific jackets, each with it's own different set of bells and whistles to appeal to different fans!

And now, I can finally shut up!!!

Michael

Thanks, Tundrarider, for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, simply because it speaks out as a voice of reason and rationalization that can put a person at ease and allow them to place things back into perspective while re-evaluating their purpose/goal for becoming involved in such a consuming hobby. I really appreciate your input.

Out of curiosity, which leather/skin is that on your Kelso jacket? The grainy lamb?

Looks great!

I remember your wested hero in crispe and this jacket fits you soooooo much better.

The pockets do look a tad off, but only because you pointed it out. Not noticeable.

Osk

Sorry for overlooking this question. The jacket was made out of their new authentic brown, striated lambskin. Thanks again for the generous compliment.

[CM]

Bdgsi11 - At Kt T wrote - don't worry so much. Your jacket looks dead on correct to me. I have a G&B and although I would prefer the pocket placed more accurately, like yours, I don't worry enough to actually care. You can loose all prospective very quickly by agonizing over a jacket's tiny details and imagining that things are really bad. It's the jacket version of body dysmorphic disorder.

[Bdgsi11]

--

[Indiego Jones]

Ok, first let me tell you, this jacket is AWESOME in terms of screen-accuracy.
Many-many details present on this jacket. I can see them.

The pockets placement are correct (and screen-accurate) according to your sizing.
Are exactly where they should be.

A common mistake is to believe the positioning of the front "patch" pockets refer to the stormflap/zipper.
Wrong.
The pocket placement must be located (correctly according every size, are some calculations to do) at same distance each from the side seam.
Cheers.-

[Bdgsi11]

This jacket is a size 34. The distance if the right pocket to the zip seam is about 2 1/2 inches and the left pocket is about 1 1/2 inches from the storm flap. Now, shouldn't this spacing become smaller or shortened as the jacket size gets smaller in size? I don't think that it should stay the same as a size 40 jacket, for example.

[Indiego Jones]

This jacket is a size 34. The distance if the right pocket to the zip seam is about 2 1/2 inches and the left pocket is about 1 1/2 inches from the storm flap. Now, shouldn't this spacing become smaller or shortened as the jacket size gets smaller in size? I don't think that it should stay the same as a size 40 jacket, for example.

The distance of the pockets to the stormflap/zipper is just a result of calculating the position according the side seam.

Yes, your jacket is a small size. The distance shouldn't be the same as in a size 40 jacket.
Many measurement on your jacket shouldn't be the same as in a 40 jacket.

[Bdgsi11]

Yes, your jacket is a small size. The distance shouldn't be the same as in a size 40 jacket.
Many measurement on your jacket shouldn't be the same as in a 40 jacket.

[Indiego Jones]

Yes, your jacket is a small size. The distance shouldn't be the same as in a size 40 jacket.
Many measurement on your jacket shouldn't be the same as in a 40 jacket.

That is exactly what I believe happened while this jacket was being constructed. It wasn't scaled down proportionately! I have brought this up with the company, but they adamantly believe that it was. The proof is in the pudding, though and the reason for my frustration.

Wait, what I was trying to say is, I'm sure many measurements are not the same as in a size 40 jacket.

I can't find a proper screencap from the film to compare, but there's nothing wrong with the proportions on this picture:



I know I saw somewhere a lightened screen-cap from the Raven Bar scene, Indy's full front, zipped jacket.
The distance to the stormflap from both pockets looks like that.

[Michaelson]

Well, this discussion has come up every now and again when it comes to the size and placement of pockets as the jackets are sized up and down. I know G&B had this very discussion with us when the Expediton was first in planning.

Strictly speaking for myself, I'd be pleased as punch at this pocket size and placement, as if they're proportionally sized down any further, they be essentially useless as a set of pockets to the wearer.

The pockets I see on this jacket are still quite useable. Just enjoy the jacket. It looks fine to me.

Regards! Michaelson

[Bdgsi11]

I'm not saying that I think the pockets need to be smaller, heavens no . I'm only saying that maybe the pockets are a little small (particularly in width) because they don't reach far enough in front. They seem more to be riding at the hips. I have also viewed many photos of those who own a Tony Nowak Raiders and their pockets don't seem to be quite as distanced as mine. I am using the Tony Nowaks as a reference because it is assumed to be the most accurate.

[Indiego Jones]

I'm not saying that I think the pockets need to be smaller, heavens no . I'm only saying that maybe the pockets are a little small (particularly in width) because they don't reach far enough in front. They seem more to be riding at the hips.

This is because of the sizing pattern.
I do Raiders jacket patterns, and it is a very tough thing to do sizing down to a very small size (at least smaller than 38 size), and do it proportionally, and make it functional too. Specially the pockets.

Again, I can see correct proportions on your jacket. Pockets too.

I have also viewed many photos of those who own a Tony Nowak Raiders and their pockets don't seem to be quite as distanced as mine. I am using the Tony Nowaks as a reference because it is assumed to be the most accurate.

Kelso is as accurate as a TNO.
And I never saw a TNO Raiders in size 34.
But I have pictures of a TNO Raiders size 38, and the pockets looks too big on it. Way off.

[Bdgsi11]

I guess your right. If I made the pockets on this one any wider it would most definitely look overwhelming for my narrow frame. Not to mention make it look worse and unbalanced. I took some extra photos from different angles and I see that it doesn't look quite as hyperbolized as I am making this seem to be. I possibly could make it work out for me…

Any more opinions are greatly welcomed

[Bdgsi11]

I know, I know…I was after scaled down accuracy, if there is such a thing. I've had many jackets before this one (1 Todd's, 3 Westeds) and the pockets were never so greatly spaced, which is why I became so alarmed when I received this one. It didn't seem within realm of what I previously had or was used to. But then again, the pockets on my previous jackets were much larger and didn't quite look so great on me. On this jacket, I will admit, the pockets are much better suited but consequently leave more space than necessary in front, sacrificing a bit of SA there. Oh well…this style doesn't work well for everyone, myself included, and believe that this is the absolute best that could be done for me.

I am also surprised that Indiego commented here. His input means a lot and has put me a bit at ease, simply because it is the most honest and unbiased. He also makes a great Raiders jacket and definitely would know what would look right for that style. Thanks again.

[Texan Scott]

Bdgs, I'd posted such in my initial review of the RH, but the great qualities of this jacket, leather used, attention to details, so far outweigh the drawbacks. Seemingly, you put it on, and you are instantly on the set, during the summer of 1980. I could focus on the 2% that I do not care for, or the 98% that painstaking was created with an authentic flavor for the real jacket in mind. The 2% will only make you disgruntled. If you are that unhappy with it, why not sell it on the 'bay or something, and next time you order, just tweak the pocket position, and any other spec. that you feel is slightly off, on the new one?

Take a look at the vintage, WWII A-2 jackets. Some of those pockets would make you think that the RH was a museum piece.

[Indiego Jones]

I am also surprised that Indiego commented here. His input means a lot and has put me a bit at ease, simply because it is the most honest and unbiased. He also makes a great Raiders jacket and definitely would know what would look right for that style. Thanks again.

"Well, you know me, always glad to help"

[Bdgsi11]

Bdgs, I'd posted such in my initial review of the RH, but the great qualities of this jacket, leather used, attention to details, so far outweigh the drawbacks. Seemingly, you put it on, and you are instantly on the set, during the summer of 1980. I could focus on the 2% that I do not care for, or the 98% that painstaking was created with an authentic flavor for the real jacket in mind. The 2% will only make you disgruntled. If you are that unhappy with it, why not sell it on the 'bay or something, and next time you order, just tweak the pocket position, and any other spec. that you feel is slightly off, on the new one?

Take a look at the vintage, WWII A-2 jackets. Some of those pockets would make you think that the RH was a museum piece.

If I were to have another one made, I'm not sure what exactly to adjust. I'm trying to imagine what it would look like with wider pockets and maybe it would be to overwhelming for the jacket and myself.

On the other hand, if I kept the pocket size as is and just moved their position more towards the front, that would probably make it look strange in another way. Im trying to view this from all possible angles and outcomes before I do anything rash and if a viable solution can not be decided upon, then I will more than likely just keep it. Perhaps I should take a vote?

[Texan Scott]

Easy fix. Zip the jacket and lay it flat. Next, take a ruler and measure the edge of the pockets to the outside seams of the storm flap on either side. They should roughly be the same. From your photos, it appears as though you have roughly 3/4 of an inch to 1 inch space between pocket edge and flap? Is that ideal? No? Then where would you like them? Moved 1/4" closer? And it could be that they could also be 1/4" wider? Compare your Westex pockets? The point is, get a visual perspective and play around with the measurements. That is the only way to know what you will like.

[Bdgsi11]

I just measured that and they are about the same distance at 3 1/8 inches each. I think that adjusting the width of the pocket from 5 3/4 inches to about 6 or even 6 1/4 inches would make all the difference.

[Texan Scott]

This Kelso is a 44, and the pockets are spaced about 1 5/8" from the storm flap edges, both sides. The pockets measure 6 1/4" wide x 7 3/4" long. The end of the pocket is 1 7/8" from the bottom hem.

Tony would have said...it's just a fxxxgxn' jacket. While Peter would say..."wear and be happy" or "wear in good health". Somewhere in there lies your jacket utopia.

[Indiana Jeff]

I've been looking at these pictures over and over and I don't see what your concern is. I've seen jackets with pockets that were the wrong size or wrong placement and those have been glaring. Your jacket looks very much in proportion.

If you want pockets to be in the exact same size and placement as the jacket HF wore, you'll need to get one in his size and hang it on a mannequin. I think if you start mucking with the size of the pockets or the placement on a new jacket you'll end up just as dissatisfied, just in a new way.

I'm reminded of conversations I've had with my Bride when she says, "I'm not sure I like this outfit. What do you think?" I've come to learn that she has already made up her mind and no about of compliments or cajoling from me will change her mind.

At the end of the day this is your jacket and you'll be the person wearing it, or not as it would seem to be leaning.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

Well, we've blown a lota' hot air for a few eights of an inch....

Nevertheless, a man has gotta' be happy with his jacket. I dunno, what does looking exactly like Indian Bones do for a feller..? Maybe we need our own TV show like the Ducks...? Quack! My @*#$*%* jacket is too much of this and not enough of that... What we need is a purpose....

[Tibor]

Gotta agree with Tundy; that jacket is exceptional - fantastic Indy vibe. Honestly, I wouldn't sweat the pockets. It's got that great rumpled look that is hard to capture.

[Bdgsi11]

Thanks. Looking back through this post, I do realize that I am giving this detail more attention than it really deserves and don't want to carry on with it any longer. Thank you to EVERYONE for your comments and input. It means a lot coming from fellow gear heads, such as yourselves, and was very much appreciated. You guys didn't have to comment here, but ya did and I'm very grateful for that.
All of you have helped to restore my sanity and view things in a much clearer light!

Final Verdict: I am keeping the jacket!!!

[CM]

It looks great. Remember the jacket may not be the issue, often it's the wearer that isn't screen accurate. Few of us share Harrison's proportions and so any jacket no matter how made will look a little or a lot different. As I said before it's very easy to become obsessive over the tiniest detail and in doing so become a little deranged. We've seen it a lot. I've been there myself.

[Whitman]

BDGS....I totally agree with the sentiments of several others. The proportions look appropriate for your frame and it's a gorgeous jacket. Glad to hear you're keeping it.

[baddates1]

It is threads like these that make me go and check my gear the threads are about to see if my gear is accurate. Well...... the curse of liking Indy stuff too much, this curse though is more of a happy joy more than it is a curse and I LOVE IT!

[baddates1]

And are you wondering about if the pockets are too far away from the zipper? Cause that is what I checked my jacket for.

Doing what an endangered gentleman should do in a less colder area than the rest of the continent is used too in this time of season: baddates1

[Bdgsi11]

And are you wondering about if the pockets are too far away from the zipper? Cause that is what I checked my jacket for.

Yes, this was a concern of mine. I was concerned that the pockets were distanced a bit far from each other and was not an accurate portrayal of the film version. Out of curiosity, what jacket do you have to which you are referencing?

[baddates1]

It is a hybrid that was officially licensed by Lucasfilm back when after the first 3 movies where already out. I think it was a jacket that Disney land was selling or something. I will have to ask the person I got it from again. Anyway, it is a mixture of the 1rst 3 movies. Why?

Doing what an endangered gentleman should do in warmer areas of the continent when it should be colder so we could do fun stuff outside instead of being cooped up in the house: baddates1

[CM]

The Disney jacket is a US Wings.

Oh and baddates1 - what does your constant reference to "endangered gentleman" mean?

[Indiego Jones]

The Disney jacket is a US Wings.

Oh and baddates1 - what does your constant reference to "endangered gentleman" mean?

I own a Disney (Orlando) Indy jacket, purchased in 1993, and it is a COOPER COLLECTION.

[Michaelson]

...which is now owned by U. S Wings and was made in partnership between Neil Cooper and David Hack of U. S Wings when formed in 1986.

Regards! Michaelson