G&B "Types of Leather" Tutorial

[Cajunkraut]

I know this has been covered here and there within some of the discussions, but thought it might be helpful for some of us newbies.

http://www.gibson-barnes.com/page-29385 ... ather.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michaelson]

http://www.all-about-leather.co.uk/what ... -types.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some more useful info.

There's a LOT of information here and 'out there' when you do any kind of a search.

Regards! Michaelson

[afalzon]

In many of those sites the information is not accurate or contradicting with the info on other sites.
One has to be VERY careful when consulting those sites. The information is often misleading and the parties involved seem to prefer to maintain the ignorance and confusion that surrounds the topic. The only information that counts is the information that comes from unbiased sources.

[Cajunkraut]

Thanks, afalzon.

By all means, point us in the right direction then!

[Michaelson]

Read EVERY information link as being 'biased', Cajunkraut. For example, afalzon is a vendor, so he will be biased toward his information that supports what he sells, and he should be. All vendors have every reason to be proud of their wares, and believe THEIR information is the 'true source'.

Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing.....just take ALL information you find and read, cross reference them, separate the wheat from the chaff, then come up with your own conclusions. Don't be spoon fed by anyone. That's what real research is, and what this site is all about.

Just a 'word to the wise'.

Regards! Michaelson

[Cajunkraut]

Duly noted, Michaelson.

I've learned lots in a relatively short time here, much to the detriment of my bank account.

[Michaelson]

Haven't we all!

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

If you have a tendency to chew your food too long, you could be wearing cowhide...
if you suddenly get the irresistible urge to sprint for a quarter mile or more....
if you accidentally lock yourself if the Bbbbaaathroom, well there's no hope for you.

[Cajunkraut]

If you have a tendency to chew your food too long, you could be wearing cowhide...
if you suddenly get the irresistible urge to sprint for a quarter mile or more....
if you accidentally lock yourself if the Bbbbaaathroom, well there's no hope for you.

http://instantrimshot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CM]

Read EVERY information link as being 'biased', Cajunkraut. For example, afalzon is a vendor, so he will be biased toward his information that supports what he sells, and he should be. All vendors have every reason to be proud of their wares, and believe THEIR information is the 'true source'.

Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing.....just take ALL information you find and read, cross reference them, separate the wheat from the chaff, then come up with your own conclusions. Don't be spoon fed by anyone. That's what real research is, and what this site is all about.

Just a 'word to the wise'.

Regards! Michaelson

Well put. I always shudder when one vendor says don't trust other vendors, trust me, I have the truth... Yeah, right.

[afalzon]

Well put. I always shudder when one vendor says don't trust other vendors, trust me, I have the truth... Yeah, right.

If a vendor can support his arguments with strong evidence, why not hear him out?

[Michaelson]

Because the rules state otherwise:

Note to vendors....it is not allowed (nor professional) for vendors to 'attack' other vendors in any section of the site. Please keep your discussions/posts to your own product and let your customers do the comparisons, pro and con.

Let's not keep going down this rabbit hole.

Regard! Michaelson

[afalzon]

Of course,
I meant supporting his arguments about the quality of his products..

[Texan Scott]

Ultimately, lamb, cow, goat and sometimes horse are used to make these jackets. It just depends on what technique they use at the tannery. But I have found that veg tan yields much warmer undertones and surface appearance for that matter than the semi-a, chromium method. That's my story and I'm sticking with it...

[Michaelson]

Of course,
I meant supporting his arguments about the quality of his products..

That's what I said in my statement above.

For example, afalzon is a vendor, so he will be biased toward his information that supports what he sells, and he should be. All vendors have every reason to be proud of their wares, and believe THEIR information is the 'true source'

Just don't compare them with another vendor's product.

That's also why vendors have their own section. Use that area to ply your wares.

Agreed, Tex. My vege-tanned G&B goatskin has a MUCH richer/warmer color than my original chrome tanned version, and is MUCH softer too! Chrome-tanned wears like iron, but takes a LOT longer to achieve a natural used look without performing un-natural applications of distressing.

That said, we've wandered a LONG way from the original intent of this posted thread. Let's bring it back to just offering information regarding leather for folks who have not really given it a whole lot of thought.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Agreed, Tex. My vege-tanned G&B goatskin has a MUCH richer/warmer color than my original chrome tanned version, and is MUCH softer too! Chrome-tanned wears like iron, but takes a LOT longer to achieve a natural used look without performing un-natural applications of distressing.

....box it up and send it out here, big daaahhhawwwgg!


@Cole Slaw,
I think the best thing that can happen is that the jackets you make and the leathers you offer simply stand on their own merit, and when you are relaxed and comfortable enough with it, then you do not have to feel as though you need to defend anything. You offer an excellent product, though I think it is a bit on the expensive side, but that too is in the eye of the beholder...all according to what the fan is willing to pay. But that is true with any vendor. In this day and time, I could be happy with most any of these jacket offerings if there was only one vendor to choose from. The most difficult decision for the fan is at which price point do they want to collect?

[Tibor]

For me, there are a variety of aspects:

I agree that veg tanned is almost always going to show more character. Generally, veg tanned leathers are porous and show water. The good ones look unchanged once the water evaporates, the lesser ones stain. My Kelsos can get rained on and they show each water drop, but you'd never know it got wet once it dries out.

Chrome tanned often are more waterproof and water tends to bead. This would include the current hides used by G&B and several used at Wested, and I suspect most at US Wings. Not sure about Magnoli and Todd's current offering.

I don't believe that it's the tanning method per se that determines this as much as the surface treatment commonly associated with each.

I think veg tanning generally yields a more SA look, but that is of course in the eye of the beholder.

Also, some hides (notably goat) handle water better than others.

As for drape, generally speaking, veg tanned tend to drape better in my experience. Not that you can't get a chrome tanned hide to drape, but it may take more work. Again, hide and thickness come into play here - thickness being equal (though it seldom is):
Lambskin drapes the most
Cowhide next
Then goatskin
And last, horsehide.

Among other leathers, deerskin is drapey like lamb, and bison falls somewhere between cowhide and goatskin. On big animals, what part of the hide can make quite a difference too. Some horsehide can be softer, but front quarter horsehide can sometimes feel like medieval leather armor.

Finally, tear resistance, (tensile strength) is an issue - how tough is the hide. Here I can't really say the tanning matters so much as the type of hide. Generally strength is in reverse order to drape. Horse - Goat - Cow- and least strong lamb.

It's great that we can find almost any combination of attributes among our Indy vendors.

[Michaelson]

For me, there are a variety of aspects:

I agree that veg tanned is almost always going to show more character. Generally, veg tanned leathers are porous and show water. The good ones look unchanged once the water evaporates, the lesser ones stain. My Kelsos can get rained on and they show each water drop, but you'd never know it got wet once it dries out.

It also depends on if any leather treatment has been applied to the vegetable tanned leather. My afore mentioned G&B beads water like water off a chrome tanned version, but that's due to years of application of Pecards and/or Lexol. I'm sure if left alone, it would have, indeed, shown water as you say. I never experienced that as I treated mine as soon as I got it, and have done so ever since. That's been well over a decade too.

Regards! Michaelson

[afalzon]

but front quarter horsehide can sometimes feel like medieval leather armor.

This is the case when the leather is processed to be 'leather for shoes'. It is never the case when it is processed as 'leather for garments'. The process is different, so is the result. However, some makers who can't find suitable leathers use the former for garments. That's why you see jackets standing on their own. It's wrong. Also, you will never see leather for garments at 4 oz.

The tanneries in Italy refuse to sell you horse leather for footwear if you tell them you want it to make garments. And they never talk to you again. The reason is that there are certain standards that have to be followed in the process of making leather for garments that have to do with health so if they sell inappropriate products they may end up in trouble.
The process for 'leather for bags' is also different and again they refuse to sell it for garments.

[Tibor]

Ahhhh, Italy. Sadly, we lost Tony there but they sure know their leather. I've always been in the north (Bologna, Vicenza, Venice, Stresa) when visiting. Well deserved reputation for fashion!

[Baldwyn]

I stumbled across this article, when I was trying to understand full vs top grain leather. It's a good read, from a vendor with no Indy jacket connections.

http://www.waskerd.com/leather.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[afalzon]

It's nice article, but focuses too much on the strength of the leather which isn't the no1 concern.
The essence is that full grain is the 1st quality and top grain the 2nd.
99% of all jacket makers use 2nd or lower quality leathers for 2 reasons.
a) because 2nd quality is good enough quality for jackets and b) because 1st quality is not economically justified by them. It's so expensive that they would have to sell each jacket for a small fortune, so they 'd rather use the second quality stuff which they buy cheap and sell for $1000, for example. That's how the industry works and relies much on the fact that customers do not know the difference in quality. A customer can be given a top grain leather and told it's full grain and he will believe it because he is not able to tell the difference due to lack of knowledge.

another article

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/lp2/le ... ation=True" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's how it is:



Recommended reading here:

http://www.saddlebackleather.com/Leather-101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michaelson]

That's the first time I've seen a chart like this. VERY useful!

The only remark I'd somewhat disagree with is the one stating strength is not the number 1 concern.

To a customer like me, strength is the number one concern in all aspects of my purchase, regardless of pedigree. In my purchase opinion, strength is primary, pedigree is next.... but that's just my opinion on what I buy and why I make the decisions I make when looking at jackets.

You make a good point on the fact most folks (heck, I'd even venture to say 95%) don't know one leather from another when handed a variety of samples to choose from. They have to take it on faith and trust of the vendor they deal with regarding their 'truth in advertising' in offering what they sell.

That's true in all purchases, but none so much as when buying a leather item, that's for sure.

Regards! Michaelson

[afalzon]

Hi Michaelson,
Well, you can be happy if you buy full grain because you buy both maximum strength and best quality.
The difference in strength between full grain and top grain isn't that great. But the difference in price is. Full grain can be 4 times more expensive than top grain as it is a higher quality and a more rare commodity than top grain.

I have some excellent info my library, one day, if I find the time, should write a piece with all the info about leather that the jacket fan needs to know.

[Michaelson]

Well, maybe someday I'll go down that path.

Wish you would write a book. We can use all the reference material we can get.

Regards! Michaelson

[CM]

It's nice article, but focuses too much on the strength of the leather which isn't the no1 concern.
The essence is that full grain is the 1st quality and top grain the 2nd.
99% of all jacket makers use 2nd or lower quality leathers for 2 reasons.
a) because 2nd quality is good enough quality for jackets and b) because 1st quality is not economically justified by them. It's so expensive that they would have to sell each jacket for a small fortune, so they 'd rather use the second quality stuff which they buy cheap and sell for $1000, for example. That's how the industry works and relies much on the fact that customers do not know the difference in quality. A customer can be given a top grain leather and told it's full grain and he will believe it because he is not able to tell the difference due to lack of knowledge.

another article

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/lp2/le ... ation=True" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's how it is:



Recommended reading here:

http://www.saddlebackleather.com/Leather-101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy, I still don't understand your use of the word quality. If it doesn't mean strength then what's the point as appearance is subjective? Can you elucidate?

[Tibor]

Hmmm... strength and quality don't always go together. Beautiful lambskin can be high quality, but you wouldn't want to use it for protection in the bush or being dragged behind a truck. At the same time you can get some miserable looking strapping cowhide and you could tow a semi truck with it, but it's certainly not quality for jackets.

Because the attributes of any leather are linked to what it's used for, tanners and leatherworkers have come up with independent descriptions that define what quality is for any particular hide, and agreed to those in their business.

[CM]

Tibor you're right. I don't think quality has any genuine meaning in the context of these discussions unless the difference can be spelt out with evidence; with facts such as the ability to withstand abrasion, water, sunlight, etc. Without any basis to it "quality" is a subjective term that is largely for marketing purposes. And yes, in fashion circles quality might mean butter soft lamb. Not something I personally care for...

[Indiana Jeff]

Excellent points both.

Terms like 'quality' and 'value' are largely subjective.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[afalzon]

No no no.
In leathers the term quality has a specific meaning. High quality leather is considered the natural leather. The leather that had the less treatment in order to appear nice. It doesn't have to do with strength. For example, threads. Nylon/polyester is stroger than cotton. But cotton is considered higher quality, because (you guessed it) it's natural.

When they slaughter the animals, they remove the hair and then examine the skins. The skins with less imperfections, marks, holes, cuttings etc are considered "high quality" and they are put aside. They will go for natural processing, vegetable tanning, aniline dyeing, all natural.

Needless to say, those skins of which the surface is in excellent condition, are less than the others. So because of being a rare commodity already are immediately of higher value than the rest. They will go for natural processsing which is more costly, so their price will be high.

The others, will be sanded so that the imperfections from their surface are removed. Together with the imperfections, the grain is also removed (which is why you can distinguish horse between cow etc).
Those skins will go for chrome tanning and in most cases will be spray painted for an even and smooth surface.

Bottom line, the more natural is the hide, the higher its quality, value and price.

[Tibor]

When I said, "tanners and leatherworkers have come up with independent descriptions that define what quality is for any particular hide, and agreed to those in their business", that was what I meant. Regardless of what the leather is, Andy has described what the industry defines as "quality".

We, as consumers, link quality and value of finished products. For our jackets, I can appreciate both the durable, hard wearing, jacket and the perfectly matching hide that looks entirely screen accurate made of lambskin. They can both be made from high quality hides. When it comes to Raiders jackets, I value the drape a lot with light to moderate texture.

I've found the screen accurate cut of the Raiders jacket is not very comfortable in a tougher hide as it puts pressure on the front of the shoulders rather than the top as it falls back. But in beautiful striated lamb, it is supremely comfortable and looks spot on. I think the LC jacket is ideal for a heavier leather, particularly cowhide, even assuming the original was lambskin as the shoulders were repositioned a bit.

Overall, I think a lot of people have found goatskin a good compromise between reasonably screen accurate drape and real world durability. Tundy's G&B jacket is a great example of that.

[Forrest For the Trees]

No no no.
In leathers the term quality has a specific meaning. High quality leather is considered the natural leather. The leather that had the less treatment in order to appear nice. It doesn't have to do with strength. For example, threads. Nylon/polyester is stroger than cotton. But cotton is considered higher quality, because (you guessed it) it's natural.

When they slaughter the animals, they remove the hair and then examine the skins. The skins with less imperfections, marks, holes, cuttings etc are considered "high quality" and they are put aside. They will go for natural processing, vegetable tanning, aniline dyeing, all natural.

Needless to say, those skins of which the surface is in excellent condition, are less than the others. So because of being a rare commodity already are immediately of higher value than the rest. They will go for natural processsing which is more costly, so their price will be high.

The others, will be sanded so that the imperfections from their surface are removed. Together with the imperfections, the grain is also removed (which is why you can distinguish horse between cow etc).
Those skins will go for chrome tanning and in most cases will be spray painted for an even and smooth surface.

Bottom line, the more natural is the hide, the higher its quality, value and price.

Bingo. Thank you for this explanation. Most leather jackets out there use leather that has a texture stamped into it. The average consumer has no idea, doesn't care, or is easily fooled. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

[CM]

No no no.
In leathers the term quality has a specific meaning. High quality leather is considered the natural leather. The leather that had the less treatment in order to appear nice. It doesn't have to do with strength. For example, threads. Nylon/polyester is stroger than cotton. But cotton is considered higher quality, because (you guessed it) it's natural.

When they slaughter the animals, they remove the hair and then examine the skins. The skins with less imperfections, marks, holes, cuttings etc are considered "high quality" and they are put aside. They will go for natural processing, vegetable tanning, aniline dyeing, all natural.

Needless to say, those skins of which the surface is in excellent condition, are less than the others. So because of being a rare commodity already are immediately of higher value than the rest. They will go for natural processsing which is more costly, so their price will be high.

The others, will be sanded so that the imperfections from their surface are removed. Together with the imperfections, the grain is also removed (which is why you can distinguish horse between cow etc).
Those skins will go for chrome tanning and in most cases will be spray painted for an even and smooth surface.

Bottom line, the more natural is the hide, the higher its quality, value and price.

Okay - like I thought then, quality IS subjective. The industry values "natural" and values "less imperfections". The industry clearly has it's own subjective standards then that have to do with the subjective category of aesthetics. These mean little to me and many other wearers of hides. I'm sure these hides are very nice but so is the chrome tanned goat used by G&B.

[afalzon]

Dear CM,
The industry is not subjective. Quality is clearly defined and it is quality that determines price. The industry refers to leathers, not jackets. The durability of leathers are also specified. Quality tanneries meet or exceed the minimum requirements and of course they can satisfy their customers' specifications if any. You may like G&B goat but to be able to talk objectively about the quality of e.g. G&B's chrome tanned goat or any other, you must have first seen a considerable amount of goat articles.

[CM]

Sorry Andy this argument will go forever since you are clearly a follower of fashion dogma. That's fine. You're the one that needs to make jackets. And maybe you need this faith to give you strength in a ruthless marketplace. I'm quite happy for you to have your beliefs since it doesn't harm others. Cheers.

[Forrest For the Trees]

Oi Vey! This conversation is going nowhere, slowly. What Andy is describing is that those in the leather profession use the word "quality" a bit differently than the average consumer. Quality refers to the grain or layer of the hide. According to the illustration, 1st quality hide is considered Full Grain, closest to the top layer, and costs the most. 2nd Quality is considered Top Grain, and is a bit further down. This is what I believe most decent leather jacket producers are using. The outermost layer is sanded down till smooth, and ultimately a simulated grain pattern is stamped in. Lastly, 3rd Quality is labeled as Genuine Leather (how many times have we seen that printed on leather goods?) as is what is used for sueded leather, and cheaper leather products.

Did I get that right?

[CM]

Oi Vey! This conversation is going nowhere, slowly. What Andy is describing is that those in the leather profession use the word "quality" a bit differently than the average consumer. Quality refers to the grain or layer of the hide. According to the illustration, 1st quality hide is considered Full Grain, closest to the top layer, and costs the most. 2nd Quality is considered Top Grain, and is a bit further down. This is what I believe most decent leather jacket producers are using. The outermost layer is sanded down till smooth, and ultimately a simulated grain pattern is stamped in. Lastly, 3rd Quality is labeled as Genuine Leather (how many times have we seen that printed on leather goods?) as is what is used for sueded leather, and cheaper leather products.

Did I get that right?

Forrest, I got that part of the argument all by myself. Shall we move on?

[Michaelson]

As interesting and educational as this info is, it may or may NOT be of use to the members here, as 9 times out of 10 the buyers of 'our jackets' take a sander or like tool and grind OFF that top layer to achieve the desired distressed appearance of the film jackets.

Once again, we're more interested in the underlying strength of material rather than the industry defined 'quality' of the hide as used as a the standard to grade leather by garment manufacturers.

It's still good all round info in order to be a fully informed buyer.

Regards! Michaelson

[afalzon]

Generally speaking full grain is stronger than top grain, but ultimately it all depends on the tanning process.
As mentioned, each leather, depending on its intended use shall meet certain standards. Quality tanneries and makers should conform to the standards. Reference to quality was made to explain the differences in price. Again, a distinction should be made between what industry terms quality and the consumer's personal taste.

[Texan Scott]

There are a handful of jacket vendors here that have been supplying Indy jacket fans with reproduction leather props for years. I cant think of anyone who has said in effect, the leather on this jacket is sub-par, does not meet my standards, etc., so I will have to send it back. There have always been complaints about the jacket not looking or moving like the one of film, but most of those issues have been resolved due to the pattern and cut, or the fact that a guy just did not have the same thin torso as HF did, so many decades ago. Several years back, there were issues on durability, the fact that the seams, etc., pockets kept coming loose, but those issues have been taken care of, too. The last hurdle to cross, in effect, has been the remaining 15% or so, in details and type/tanning method of the skins, and once that was breached, it opened the door so that fans could truly have a jacket virtually like the one HF used on set. All in all, this is what everyone wanted in the first place, I believe. Obviously, when one vendor introduced a refinement, others followed suit, and now several are even more SA than they used to be. I couldn't imagine people arguing about 'if' any one jacket was top grain vs. full grain, but stranger things have happened, I suppose? The refinements have whittled down the disparity so much that there are virtually little if any frontiers to cross anymore. The question now seems to be, which vendor can stock a faithful reproduction of that same type of skin? ....it is a testament to how far the repro. market has improved, for the select few of us that are interested in that sort of thing....that now the talk isn't so much about the details as it is about the type and texture of the skin, and others would argue that it is immaterial, to others it matters. that is were you enter the picture, and a few other vendors.

[Tibor]

Weeellllll ... there have been a few hides that didn't suit my tastes. The antique lambskin and the lightweight lambskin from US Wings weren't up there for me. I thought the antique was a bit artificial feeling and too fragile for my tastes. The thin (I think it was New Zealand) lamb was very blotchy and unevenly dyed, and I didn't care for that look. Same issue with the Buffalo. I think US Wings does their best work in cowhide personally.

Also, at least one earlier batch of Todd's smelled "burnt" and more than a few commented on that.

Then there was Tony's 2nd generation shrunken lamb that would leave light leather car seats with darkened stains.

Wested's first batch of shrunken lamb was awfully stiff for lambskin (the current is Verrry nice).

I've never heard (or experienced) a problem with G&B other than they take a long time to age and break in.

So, yeah, there have been some hide issues along the way, but also a lot of alternatives to suit your tastes.