So .. what jacket is this ?

[CRB]

I was browsing a Hollywood costumes website and came across a Raiders jacket, allegedly worn in the first film. On closer inspection it has epaulettes ! So regardless of the plaque, I don't think this is an actual screen worn item. Is it one of the prototypes ?

Website link:
http://hollywoodmoviecostumesandprops.b ... na%20Jones" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Indiana Jeff]

Looks like an A2. Probably a simple matter of not knowing what a 'real' Indy jacket is. Could maybe be a jacket from Hanover Street. Given that this is a picture posted on a blog, my guess is the picture it was taken at a Planet Hollywood. A2s have been listed as Indy jackets there.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[CM]

If it has anything to do with Ford at all it has to be the Wested made Hanover Street A2. Same wide wind flap, and short knits. But hard to tell. Like we've said on this site many times - to many folk the Indy jacket is an A2 - not that they'd know an A2 from an A1 - but that's another story. This one had a large circular badge on it at some time which the film one didn't appear to have. I particularly like the way they have a photo of an Indy jacket without knits as "proof".

[CRB]

Ha! Just noticed the knit cuffs and waist. "Indy jacket" my arse !

[Michaelson]

That's right, Jeff/CM. This same display is hanging in Planet Hollywood in Las Vegas, and was a jacket worn by Ford....in "Hanover Street"...NOT any of the Indy films. Right costumer, B&N....wrong film.

Here's an OLD OLD email in storage I'll share now that Noel is long gone. I'm sure he wouldn't care my sharing now:

From: NHowardUk@aol.com [NHowardUk@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 10:21 AM
To: M
Subject: Indygear


Dear M,
Thank you for your e-mail and apologies for not replying sooner.
You are correct in your observation. There were several jackets sent to certain restaurants for display that were sited as being jackets used in the Indiana Jones films that were actually from Hanover Street. This was another film we were involved with starring Harrison Ford, and it was considered that no one would really notice. Who knew after all these years there would still be such interest?
Please feel free to contact me with any more questions you may have, and I will try to answer them promptly.
Best wishes
As ever

Noel.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

I will go ahead and bring it into this discussion into this thread...your questions spun out more in my mind, because I had wondered if the A-2's that Deb had initially made up were utilized at all, obviously not for the main Hero, but could they have worn them around set or something? I vaguely remember SS wearing an A-2 in some outtakes, but it could have been a different movie?

[Charybdis]

Well, I know that before I got into Indy costuming by finding this site that I wore my A-2 as Indy and everyone still knew who I was!!!

[Michaelson]

As usual, we could spin all sorts of theories off this one.

In refreshing my memory, the A2's came directly from Wilson's inventory, so technically they weren't 'made' for DN, but were just pulled from stock and sent over to the production.

If that's the case, one could easily suppose they ended up in the B&N inventory when they were replaced by the jackets made by Wested subcontracted by the costumer.

I was told separately those Wilson's either ended up being used up by secondary stuntmen as protective padding, or were sold off through Western Costume sales later.

Taking it a bit further, once again just spinning theories and coming full circle here, one could suppose that if...JUST if they DID end up in B&N inventory, maybe....JUST maybe we're looking at one in the photo in the first post above, making it a real 'Raiders' jacket.....just not in the sense of an actual 'screen USED' jacket, in spite of the email I got from Noel Howard in 2003. He was working from 12-13 year old memory at the time when he wrote that.

I see no tag on the jacket in the photo above. The one in the Planet Hollywood in Vegas had a B&N tag and nothing else.

Follow my line of thinking?

So....is that one of the original Wilson's in the picture above?

Who knows? Wested made all the A2's for Hanover Street, just to add another layer of confusion.

That said, though, I could see someone at B&N just pulling a surplus jacket stored in the 'Indy' section of their stock to toss into a display for a restaurant, not knowing OR caring what it was or any details behind it. So, it might just BE a Wilson, as B&N would have to prove the provenance to the buyer if pressed for details.

Absolutely no way to prove it one way or the other.

Still, it has always been fun to play 'what if' in this hobby.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Thanks, Mark. Interesting if these Wilson's A-2's did land in the B&N inventory. That's an interesting thought.

Too many "if" "then" "else's" here...but Hanover was released in '79, that means it was most likely made around '78. That means that it could or would have carried the B&N or LC label on it. There again, we don't know about the jacket above, if the label was removed? Did they sometimes remove the label for filming, or did Peter put the LC label on a jacket only for B&N to remove it and sew theirs in? The B&N label on the other A-2 would make sense. It would be interesting to deliver these jackets and see if Peter could recognize his work. That might nail it down quite a bit more....Peter has said before in that BBC interview on his website, that when contractors in the film and TV industry liked and used them, they would often not tell any of the other studios or production co.'s. So would that imply that the original Hero's jackets carried the B&N label only, if it had one at all?

[Michaelson]

Well, we've heard 'ad nasium' they were shipped to England in hopes to make first day of shooting in France, only to have Wested come through with the first jackets for DN to hand distress 'by the swimming pool' with Ford's Swiss Army knife etc etc etc. It would only make sense they would have stayed with the production company and/or costumer..... at least it would to me.

It also gives credance to me for what I was told on the side by folks directly invovled in the day to day operations of the production when I was still able to talk to them back in the mid-late 80's.

They were there, and a lot of excess costume items WERE sold off through Western Costume sales years later when they sold off surplus items from their enormous stock. This was recorded by MK when he was webmaster here, and he's connected with the film industry. One thing he said never saw was one of the Wilson's come through WC sales. Shirts, trousers etc, yes. Jackets, no.

These display jackets have always fascinated me, especially those in the Planet Hollywood restaurants. Anyone can argue that the owners could have bought surplus items from costumers and told them 'Just toss any leather jacket in the frame. No one can tell the difference.....' Thing is, Planet Hollywood is a franchise owned and operated by film buffs and actors FOR film buffs and fanatics.....folks who KNOW the difference between a fake and the real thing when it comes to a particular film they're interested in following.

So, would they chance displaying a proveable 'fake' to their customers?

Your call. I have my own opinion.

Regards! M

[Michaelson]

Anything placed in B&N inventory had the tag installed to prove ownership, regardless of who made it. They were the prime contractors, and everything done was done in their name and with their name installed. No other tag appeared.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Yeah, the issue is that usually, even fans at large really do not often distinguish between an A-2 and the Indy jacket, as Char. mentions. There is so much that could have happened as things travel down the line. I think 'Screenused' was extremely fortunate to get ahold of the supposed SA Hero hat. I mean, that was one incredible find if it was in fact the real deal. Still it is interesting to think that there could very well have been 10 Wilson's A-2 floating around out there possibly in private collector's hands with real ties to the movie. Like...hey, I've got a Raiders movie jacket!" No you don't it has knits and cuffs....

[Michaelson]

Exactly.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Come to think of it, Mark, would not have the Wilson's jackets been pre-exclusive contract with B&N and pre-trip to England? Could it be that most all the A-2's labeled by B&N were actually Hanover jackets?....

[Michaelson]

Hard to say. It would all be in how the contract was written.

These Wilson's were direct acquistion by DN, according to her, not through Western Costume as she didn't think B&N would come through in time for the first day of production. She may have left them with B&N when she left the production in France. With her wedding in the wings, I doubt very much she was the least bit concerned what happened to those jackets. She had other things on her plate.

If they had been acquired THROUGH WC, they would have returned to WC for disposal. There has been no record of them ever showing up there to date. That's why the theory they might have just been tossed into the B&N inventory after the production ended.

Once again....we're just theorizing. I don't want to see somewhere me being quoted as saying this was indeed the fact of the matter. We just don't know. We're just tossing the puzzle pieces on the table and trying to fit them together in some kind of recognizable form.

Since Wested/Leather Consessionaires was already a well established sub-contractor to B&N, why use Wilson's? Peter has already posted his company was the one who made the Hanover Street film jackets. They're still available through his website. I don't see any reason to doubt that myself.
Add the fact that if B&N had been required to supply any replacement A2's for the Hanover Street production in case they had damage to existing jackets, they would have had to be able to go back to their subcontractor to get said replacement. Why go to Wilson's in California when you had Wested right at your back door?

All that said, and these points to presented....now don't you, too, think it interesting these A2's keep showing up in displays, plainly represented in plaque as being 'Indiana Jones Raiders' jackets?

Then again, back in 1991 when Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, and Arnold Schwarzenegger decided to open Planet Hollywood, they may have just told their property managers to "buy up anything you can and put it on the wall. No one would know the difference! They'll STILL be arguing about it 22 years from now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Just fun stuff to ponder over your cup of coffee.....

Regards! M

p.s. want some more 'theory' points to ponder? Look at the date Planet Hollywood started. That was 2 years after Last Crusade was out. Spielberg and Lucas said they were done with the Indy Franchise. Why WOULDN'T B&N eliminate old Indy costuming from their inventory when offered good money for display pieces.

[Indiana Jeff]

Don't you just HATE IT when you have a well thought out, articulate post written and then hit some wrong key and it all goes away?! So, here's take two.



I did the unthinkable and checked the main page jacket write-up.

Based on these sketches, “ten military-style plain cuffed and plain hemmed leather jackets” were ordered from Wilson’s Leather in Los Angeles. This was the extent of the original specification, and Wilson’s responded with an altered A2-like jacket design that removed the jersey knits from the hems and cuffs.

Test fittings done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck, the actor first cast as Indy, made it clear there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. The jacket would get caught on the gun belt and bullwhip. Additionally, the leather used did not artificially age well and the finish would flake off. Western Costumes interceded and provided a full mock-up jacket in a denim-like cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues. While it has been reported that Western Costumes provided finished leather jackets, this is not quite accurate. The only complete jacket made to Nadoolman’s specifications was the cloth jacket, which was in fact used in one Raiders sequence where Ford is being chased downhill by the Hovitos. This jacket was used “on the spur of the moment” because the Fuller's Earth adhered to its surface better than its leather compatriots.

The only leather jackets presented by Western Costumes to Nadoolman were historically accurate World War II-style A2s, which WC carried in its inventory. The A2 design did not satisfy the requirements for Indy. Western Costumes did not provide any finished jackets in leather, only the cloth mock-up. By this time, the leading man was changed from Selleck to Harrison Ford, and Nadoolman and Kimball left for London. The Wilson’s jackets and the cloth mock-up went with them. The final production jackets for Indy would ultimately be obtained through Berman and Nathans in London.

So, assuming this information is mostly accurate, the only jackets even close to resembling A2s were the Wilson jackets that were altered to remove the knits prior to being shipped to DHL. In my mind there's no way any A2 can claim providence as an Indy jacket.

And, as TS pointed out, Hanover Street was released in 1979. Production would have wrapped before pre-production would have even started on ROLA. DHL wasn't even part of the scene yet.

NOTE: For clarity I combined Michaelson's quotes from two separate posts.

These display jackets have always fascinated me, especially those in the Planet Hollywood restaurants. Anyone can argue that the owners could have bought surplus items from costumers and told them 'Just toss any leather jacket in the frame. No one can tell the difference.....' Thing is, Planet Hollywood is a franchise owned and operated by film buffs and actors FOR film buffs and fanatics.....folks who KNOW the difference between a fake and the real thing when it comes to a particular film they're interested in following.

So, would they chance displaying a provable 'fake' to their customers?

All that said, and these points to presented....now don't you, too, think it interesting these A2's keep showing up in displays, plainly represented in plaque as being 'Indiana Jones Raiders' jackets?

Then again, back in 1991 when Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, and Arnold Schwarzenegger decided to open Planet Hollywood, they may have just told their property managers to "buy up anything you can and put it on the wall. No one would know the difference! They'll STILL be arguing about it 22 years from now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I don't think we have to over-think this either.

Planet Hollywood was founded to ride the coattails of expanding Hard Rock Cafe restaurants. SS, BW and AS's involvement was somewhat financial, but largely done for the publicity. I suppose some effort may have gone into securing screen used pieces to decorate the franchises, but I highly doubt the first priority was to hire a museum curator to vet every piece that would be hung on the walls. More time and energy would have gone into hiring management staff with restaurant experience. And even with that the fad of theme restaurants ran its course and PH has filed for bankruptcy twice, has closed all but eight locations worldwide and AS severed his financial ties in 2000.

We've all said it 1,000 times, 99.95% of PH customers are not going to know the difference. Myself as an example, I like Star Wars, but I couldn't tell you the difference among the Darth Vader armor in the different movies. If there was a Vader mannequin with a "A New Hope" plague next to it, I'd get my picture taken and be happy. There's plenty of people out there (and lurking the halls here) that could tell at first glance that armor wasn't ANH, it's RotJ armor.

What I can believe is that PH may have gotten their hands on authentic Hanover Street jackets; but let's face it, Hanover Street tanked so what has the better marquee value:

Wall Plague: "Leather jacket worn by Harrison Ford in Hanover Street"
Average Customer: "What the heck is Hanover Street? Isn't that the Indiana Jones jacket?"

What I think would be a interesting exercise would be to find equally detailed oriented fans of all the memorabilia in a Planet Hollywood to vet their chosen pieces for accuracy. I bet a paycheck nearly everything in the joint would be found wanting by that particular fan base.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Michaelson]

Once again, all theory and conjecture, simply reinforcing my 'Then again, back in 1991 when Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, and Arnold Schwarzenegger decided to open Planet Hollywood, they may have just told their property managers to "buy up anything you can and put it on the wall. No one would know the difference! They'll STILL be arguing about it 22 years from now!!!!!!!!!'.

Who can say the cuffs weren't put back in the Wilson's if/when returned to B&N, making them useable A2's for future projects? It's an easy fix. I had the same thing done to my old A2 years ago before purchasing my first Wested. I wore the jacket without cuffs for over 10 years, then had the cuffs put back on the jacket by a jacket manufacturer here in Tennessee. No problem.

I think the displays are Hanover Street jackets myself....but there just not enough proof one way or the other. Just word of mouth, but it's in writing from Noel Howard himself above. I think that's pretty good 'word' of mouth.

What's completely fascinating to me is that these Wilson's flat fell off the face of the planet after they were rejected in England and the Wested jackets came on line. There's not been a single doumented reference of one showing up in collections, sales, or fan sightings in the past 32 years. We know they existed, as even DN has stated in her own book they did. So, what REALLY became of those Wilson jackets?

This is always an interesting and fun exercise.....and like most, open ended discussion. Too many variables to work with, and no resolution possible.

In a way, I'm glad too, as when we have total resolution, conversations dry up.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

I do remember that Tom Selek did do a screen test wit Karen Allen in an A-2 complete with cuffs, etc., so they or some other variation of them were around even at that early stage. (Undoubtedly, when DN placed the Wilson's order, HF and stuntmen wore roughly the same size, around a 40. TS at 6'4" was undoubtedly a larger jacket?) The question is was it a Wlison's jacket or maybe one supplied by Western Costume or someone else...

At any rate, for me, I would be more apt to believe that an A-2 display with a B&N label could possibly be from Hanover than to think a jacket without a label would be one of the 10 Wilson's, but that is just my pov.

These display jackets without labels could be just any old A-2, distressed slightly, etc. Who knows, conjecture.

[Michaelson]

Probably picked up from J. C. Penny.

[Texan Scott]

I had one that I could have loaned him.

[Indiana Jeff]

Tom Selleck is also wearing a fedora in those screen tests (with Sean Young, by the by), but nothing close to an proper Raiders fedora. If memory serves it's grey. My guess is 'they' grabbed whatever leather jacket was readily available for him to wear, nothing more.

Here it is. http://moviepilot.com/stories/964778-vi ... ition-tape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Texan Scott]

On second thought... ....as I am looking at the display, the jackets LC/Wested made in the 80's, and pre, had the same color cloth lining and it was lined around the collar stand, the flaps on the pockets, etc., interesting...

[Michaelson]

So did late 1970's era Avirex and Cooper A2's. Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Theory but could this be backstage jack's A-2 project he was talking about?

BSJ, you workin' for planet Hollywood? 'Yeah I got a few Raiders jackets! Got em right here in the trunk ready for display!'

[Michaelson]