how to reblock a downtowner?

[IndyJames98]

i bought a downtowner a while ago. it came very loose, not stiff as advertised. and i am wondering how to reblock it. it could use it. i want to be able to reshape it so i can have a good bash. its kind of messed up at the moment.

[jlee562]

You need a block, or to send it to a hatter. Some folks have used the plastic hatshapers for a kind of 'quick and dirty' psuedo reblock, but it's certainly not sn SA blockshape.

[BendingOak]

To reblock a hat properly you need more then a block. You need.....

-block
-pulldowner
-blocking ties
-push downer
-flange
-flange cloth
-flange ties
-flange stand
-iron
-sissors
-needles
-thread
-different grit sand papers
-water
-steam

John

[Ridgerunner58]

Or use what I use.

Order form
A suitable box
Tape
Label
Postage
Check
John's address

[shade88]

Or use what I use.

Order form
A suitable box
Tape
Label
Postage
Check
John's address

This.

[RaidersBash]

Also, be careful. Some felt is prone to shrinking, so just the simple act of steaming it over and over and over to tweak the bash will cause the felt to shrink and do funny things.

Not saying that "for sure" of the Downtowner, but just know it can happen.

Cheers,
Mike

[WConly]

Also, be careful. Some felt is prone to shrinking, so just the simple act of steaming it over and over and over to tweak the bash will cause the felt to shrink and do funny things.

Not saying that "for sure" of the Downtowner, but just know it can happen.

Cheers,
Mike

Just thought of something...this could be the title line for a future "Indy" film: "Indiana Jones and His Amazing Shrinking Hat ".....no ? Well... W>

[BendingOak]

Also, be careful. Some felt is prone to shrinking, so just the simple act of steaming it over and over and over to tweak the bash will cause the felt to shrink and do funny things.

Not saying that "for sure" of the Downtowner, but just know it can happen.

Cheers,
Mike

Just thought of something...this could be the title line for a future "Indy" film: "Indiana Jones and His Amazing Shrinking Hat ".....no ? Well... W>

Well, since Indy is wearing a AB. That title you will never see.

[WConly]

Also, be careful. Some felt is prone to shrinking, so just the simple act of steaming it over and over and over to tweak the bash will cause the felt to shrink and do funny things.

Not saying that "for sure" of the Downtowner, but just know it can happen.

Cheers,
Mike

Just thought of something...this could be the title line for a future "Indy" film: "Indiana Jones and His Amazing Shrinking Hat ".....no ? Well... W>

Well, since Indy is wearing a AB. That title you will never see.

Ain't it so ? W>

[Banky]

To reblock a hat properly you need more then a block. You need.....

-block
-pulldowner
-blocking ties
-push downer
-flange
-flange cloth
-flange ties
-flange stand
-iron
-sissors
-needles
-thread
-different grit sand papers
-water
-steam

John

No, you don't.

[jlee562]

I think "properly" is the key word there.

[BendingOak]

I think "properly" is the key word there.

Thank you

[Banky]

Statement stands, you can do it properly without all of that. Not to say it doesn't help but it's not out of anyone's ability to do it with considerably less. For instance, if there isn't anything wrong with the brim of a hat there's no reason to mess with the flange.

[BendingOak]

Statement stands, you can do it properly without all of that. Not to say it doesn't help but it's not out of anyone's ability to do it with considerably less. For instance, if there isn't anything wrong with the brim of a hat there's no reason to mess with the flange.

What do you do for a living?

[parttime]

You can create a fantastic looking, fully functional whip suitable for a museum show-piece
with the proper SKILL and some very dogged up, primitive, make shift tools mixed with some patience and enginuity.

But when it comes to finishing a felt hat I can tell you from personal experience, the better the tools the better the finish.

And of course skill is required.

-Dusty

[baddates1]

Well you could ask John Penman if he could reblock for you on the hat. He's a hatter. He knows what he's doing. You do take downtowners don't you Mr. Penman?

Regards from a gentleman: baddates1

[BendingOak]

The question is does it need ago be re-creased or a true re-blocking???? Can you post photos?

[Puppetboy]

I just saw this so maybe I can help, having just reblocked a hundred or so downtowners...

We have blocks that go from the sweatband and up, so I can reblock them without removing the sweatband. No, you don't need to mess with the brim unless you want to. I give them a GOOD dose of steam and slip them over the block super fast and pull hard. This is a two-person operation so you get even stretch. The "stretchy" window is very short, so you've got to hit it hard. We hold it for a minute or two until it's cool and doesn't shrink back into shape. I leave it on the block for half a day until it's really dry, and then re-style. I get really good results this way. Send it to me and I can do it for you.

-Todd

[BendingOak]

I'm sorry Todd. That's not rebocking a hat that re-creasing a hat.

[Puppetboy]

Really? Optimo offers a "crown reblock"

http://www.optimohatworks.com/?act=view ... ductId=142

and so does Paul's Hatworks "crown reblock" or "crown reflange"

http://www.hatworksbypaul.com/cleaning/

I think I'm okay with my terminology, but thanks for your concern.

[BendingOak]

I'm sorry, yes Really. I wouldn't call that reblocking at all. Thats nothing more then re-creasing a hat. Thats a term so companies can charge you more. If you want to use that terminology go right ahead but it's wrong and misleading.

[Puppetboy]

Thats a term so companies can charge you more

Really? And you know this... how? Optimo charges $15 - $50 for a crown reblock and Paul's charges $20 - $40 for a crown reblock. Sounds reasonable to me.

If you want to use that terminology go right ahead but it's wrong and misleading.

I didn't realize you'd been tasked with re-defining hatting terminology.

Here are a few of the shysters who use the term "crown reblock" to describe removing the liner, steaming and re-shaping a crown on a wooden block:

Mike's (Cleveland est 1937)
Worth & Worth (NYC est 1922)
Paul's (San Francisco est 1918)
Optimo (formerly Johnny's, Chicago est ~1930)
Peters Brothers (Ft Worth est 1911)

You'd better tell them they've been using the wrong terminology for the last 76 - 102 years.

[BendingOak]

Those same companies use size charts that are wrong and not accurate. Just because they have been doing something for a long time doesn't make correct. also look at the way I said what I said. "I wouldn't call it re-blocking" Thats my terminology to be more accurate so the customer has a better understanding. What's wrong educating the customer. I also never said those companies you listed do that but the term is used so companies can sell you something. Just like the X's on a hat. At one time they meant something but not much anymore. Reason being if you don't say what the value of one X is, it is meaningless. Companies use it to sell hats. It's misleading. Oh, The hat is a 10 X. Wow, what is the value of X 5%, 10 %. It's a old term that shouldn't be used anymore because its misleading. Just like the term "crown - blocking'. The hats going on the crown but it's not being blocked.

As for re-defining hatting terminology. I tasked myself, for the customer. Thats who. I was also trying to help you out because I thought you to be a person who wanted to have clarity with his customers. It was not a attack on you.


Good day to you sir.

[Puppetboy]

As for re-defining hatting terminology. I tasked myself

Thats my terminology

So don't correct me for not using your own personal vocabulary.

Of course hat companies are selling services. The ones I listed I called personally and they were very clear about what they were going to do and how much they were going to charge, which was a very reasonable price. No deception involved. "We're going to take out your liner, steam your hat, place it on a crown block to restore it's shape, and restyle it for you for $25" was the typical explanation I got. Some put it in writing on their websites.

Just because they have been doing something for a long time doesn't make correct

Actually, in an industry the old, established leaders do define the terminology. It might help your customers if you align your terminology to the industry norm. Most of the hatters I checked with call the kind of service you are describing "refurbishment" or "restoration", and the steps involved in the process they offer are clearly spelled out so there is no confusion. I doubt your "recrease" "reblock" nomenclature will ever be adopted by the industry because it is unnecessary. There are already terms in place that seem pretty universally understood among hatters. Call 100 hatters and ask them what a "crown reblock" is and I'll bet almost all of them will know what you mean - remove the liner and steam the hat back into shape over a crown block - with or without sweatband. I'm not sure why you need to correct people because you think "reblock" means something different than most other hat people do.

[BendingOak]

So everyone uses a different chart and their measurements are wrong. I should be just as wrong. Thats crazy. No I make accurate hat chart. If I use the X system I have to give it a value.


re-blocking a hat is a term that has been in hat making for a very long time. Crown blocking is a fancy way of saying re-creasing a hat. Just like there are different terms for creasing, styling a bashing a hat.

I use a already established terms but that are more accurate then what most use. my term but still a industry term.

[Puppetboy]

So everyone uses a different chart and their measurements are wrong

You've got some ego, John.

You correct me for not falling into line with...

Code: Select all

 my terminology 

Accuse me of not being a...

person who wanted to have clarity with his customers

Accuse people (including me) who do not use your terms of being...

wrong and misleading

Accuse the other hat companies of deception...

Thats a term so companies can charge you more

the term is used so companies can sell you something

Or incompetence...

Those same companies use size charts that are wrong

So everyone uses a different chart and their measurements are wrong

And people need you to...

What's wrong educating the customer

Wow... just...wow...

I'm going to ignore the insults because I'm a nice guy and I'll assume you just don't know how to converse without being condescending. I will continue to use the term "crown reblock" to describe the process of steaming and restoring the crown shape on a wooden block, just like the most reputable, mainstream hatters do, since I believe that term is more widely understood than "re-creasing". I don't see the evidence of deception and mis-information you allege in the use of that term, since it is so well defined by the oldest hatters and I didn't notice anyone overcharging for it, IMO.

[BendingOak]

I have a ego because I can I can do math correctly????

Lets take a look at your hat size chart.

http://www.toddscostumes.com/costumes/m ... er-fedora/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

one example. 59cm/7 3/8 = 23 inches. That is incorrect. 59cm = 23.2383 inches. you don't round the number down by almost half a inch.

I don't know where you got you hat size chart. Maybe one of those so called respected long time hatters need to do their math again. Or was that you? see my point?

I already stated I wasn't attacking you but trying to help you. You went on the attack mode. Do you not see my point.


Im going to suggest a phone call between the two of us because I think things were taken the wrong way in the begining and then wen't down hill from there. the other reason this thread is really off track.

I do not want to be fighting with you

[Puppetboy]

59cm = 23.2383 inches. you don't round the number down by almost half a inch

??? .2383 is less than 1/4 inch.

[BendingOak]

It should have read 1/4 inch but the point is your chart is wrong? why?

[Puppetboy]

My chart is right. You're reading it wrong. It is not a mathematical conversion table, it is a hat size comparison. 23" head measurement = EUROPEAN SIZE 59, which is the closest European size for that customer. Please check the chart again - this is clearly labeled above each column.

Is this is the chip you've got on your shoulder... rounding to the nearest number on measurement charts??? Seriously?

EDIT: I just looked at your site, and sure enough, I was right - that IS your grudge with the hat world. You send out your own special paper tape measure because you don't believe in standard measurements. That's pretty... um... OCD (I was thinking of another word but didn't want to use it) But if that's how you want to do things... more power to you. I guess in your world, anyone who buys a standard size hat, rounded to the WRONG size, is an idiot.

I see you've got your own little world there, everyone else is stupid, wrong, inaccurate, deceptive, etc. Just do me a favor and stay there, will you? No one needs you being judgmental because they don't care about your pet peeves.

[BendingOak]

Again you are wrong. 59cm is a measurement not a hat size. 59cm equals 23.23 inches or 23 1/4 and if you do the math you will get 7 3/8. You are so busy taking your information 2nd hand and not doing your own homework. That's my point. Investigate yourself, do the math yourself stop relying on other people. If your to lazy to o the math get a yard stick, a ruler or tape measure.

Again, I try and extend my hand to you and you continue to insult me.

P.s. stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that anyone was a idiot. Just that they can't do math!

[Indy506]

I like that John sends the paper tape measure. He is making a hat from scratch to fit someone's exact size. Just my 2 cents.

[BendingOak]

I like that John sends the paper tape measure. He is making a hat from scratch to fit someone's exact size. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you very much. I do it for two reasons. One I'm making hats specially for each customer. Two, because and you can look it up. Google some hat shops ( on line) and you will see that the hat size charts don't line up. Why you might ask? Good question, I really can't answer it because they should all be the same but they aren't. They got there measurements wrong. I think it's because people didn't do the math. They took the information 2nd hand and most likely off of someone the top of their head ( pun intended) someone has lighten up this thread.

I'm not insane, It is insane not to have a accurate hat size chart or not to do the math. 7 3/8 is a hat size based off a mathematical equation from a measurement. It's not just a number thrown on a chart.

A cigar for anyone who can tell me why there are two different hats size one from the US and one from the UK that isn't in CM? Time to go school.

John

[Ridgerunner58]

All I can tell you is that:

1. UK sizes are the diameter of a circle having the same circumference as your head measurement. (i.e. measured circumference divided by pi.)

2. US sizes are uniformly 1/8 larger than their UK counterpart.

3. I don't know why that is. It can't be the use of a different denominator because the difference would not be a uniform 1/8 across all sizes.

Where did the 1/8 difference come from?

[Puppetboy]

OK, this is now officially a waste of time.

OP, if you want your hat fixed send it to me.

FIN

[Zuiun]

I will say that I do have the agree with John that there doesn't seem to be consistency in the charts.

After years of fumbling around with ill-fitting hats and not knowing anything about my size, I stumbled upon a vintage 7 3/8 fedora that fits me almost perfectly. Ah ha! Now I knew what to buy! But looking for that size online when buying another hat? Some places call that a 59cm, some a 60cm (I've seen it as high as 62cm). I've seen a 7 3/8 listed as everything from 23 inches to 23 1/4.

For someone like me, who tends to be a bit OCD when it comes to stuff like this, it's MADDENING to try to figure out that mess.

Maybe in the grand scheme of things, that little bit of variation isn't the end of the world. But one thing I will say: A custom made hat, fit specifically to *MY* head, is like the difference between an off-the-rack suit and a tailored suit. There's a reason my two Garrisons are my "go to" hats and why I'm saving up for a Penman.

[BendingOak]

All I can tell you is that:

1. UK sizes are the diameter of a circle having the same circumference as your head measurement. (i.e. measured circumference divided by pi.)

2. US sizes are uniformly 1/8 larger than their UK counterpart.

3. I don't know why that is. It can't be the use of a different denominator because the difference would not be a uniform 1/8 across all sizes.

Where did the 1/8 difference come from?

Ridgerunner you almost have it.

[ChrisMD]

I like turtles.

[Cajunkraut]

I like turtles.

[interbak]

All I can tell you is that:

1. UK sizes are the diameter of a circle having the same circumference as your head measurement. (i.e. measured circumference divided by pi.)

2. US sizes are uniformly 1/8 larger than their UK counterpart.

3. I don't know why that is. It can't be the use of a different denominator because the difference would not be a uniform 1/8 across all sizes.

Where did the 1/8 difference come from?

Ridgerunner you almost have it.

Can I play too? UK calculates the diameter of the body, once you install the sweatband you loose an 1/8 of a size, US does the same calculation but applies it to the sweatband, so the size equates directly to the circumference???
Just a guess.

B

[BendingOak]

Its more than a 1/8 in circumference, but you are correct.

UK uses the size based of the hat size or measurement of the finished product. US use the block size used for that hat. thats only if they did their math correctly but in short UK uses hat size and US uses block size.

I owe you a cigar. Just shoot me your address info@penmanhats.com

[Ridgerunner58]

Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Assuming a UK 7 and a US 7 1/8 fit the same, meaning the inside circumtference of the sweatband is identical, then the US size would have to be based on the felt body with no sweatband.

Anyway, the sweatband explanation sounds good to me in terms of accounting for the missing 1/8.


Added: I guess I hit the submit button a fraction slow.

[interbak]

Hey John,

Thanks for the offer, I gave up cigars years ago, so you can smoke it for me.
When I said an 1/8, I was talking sizes not inches. I guess that's actually one "hat size" difference not an 1/8 of a size, but you know what I mean.

Later, B

[lantzn]

'This is suppose to be a happy occassion, why bicker and argue over who killed who...'

[BendingOak]

Hey John,

Thanks for the offer, I gave up cigars years ago, so you can smoke it for me.
When I said an 1/8, I was talking sizes not inches. I guess that's actually one "hat size" difference not an 1/8 of a size, but you know what I mean.

Later, B

I knew what you meant but not everyone else reading it would understand.

[Banky]

Statement stands, you can do it properly without all of that. Not to say it doesn't help but it's not out of anyone's ability to do it with considerably less. For instance, if there isn't anything wrong with the brim of a hat there's no reason to mess with the flange.

What do you do for a living?

Same as you John, which I've mentioned to you several times. I just work out of someone else's shop. http://www.brassrooster.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youngjedi71]

I like that John sends the paper tape measure. He is making a hat from scratch to fit someone's exact size. Just my 2 cents.

sorry for the bump..but..to me that isnt making a "totally custom hat" ..its making sure you get the right size. Everyone offers a hat in most every size. Making it custom is using one of those "and forgive my lack of knowing the word" things you put on your head and it makes an exact shape of your head..NOT just a measurement..AND not meant as attacking,just saying my definition of a custom hat. AND i have a Steve Delk AB that might be handmade,but its not totally "custom" to me.

[fifthchamber]

I like that John sends the paper tape measure. He is making a hat from scratch to fit someone's exact size. Just my 2 cents.

sorry for the bump..but..to me that isnt making a "totally custom hat" ..its making sure you get the right size. Everyone offers a hat in most every size. Making it custom is using one of those "and forgive my lack of knowing the word" things you put on your head and it makes an exact shape of your head..NOT just a measurement..AND not meant as attacking,just saying my definition of a custom hat. AND i have a Steve Delk AB that might be handmade,but its not totally "custom" to me.

With due respect, John also goes out of his way to get a look at what your head shape is, how you wear the hats you already own, and what you're looking for...So yes, it IS "custom hatmaking", entirely....

Steve would do the same, but Steve is less able to use things like Facebook and his computing skills to stay ahead in that respect....John is a little more "current" for want of a better word....Steve used to make hats for people he knew...From here in a lot of cases, and those people had been seen by him, so he could do it better, as his business got larger, he dropped out of contact except by email...John still uses Facebook, here, and email to stay up on who his customers are...THAT is what makes his design for YOUR hat, so well fitted to YOU..

In my opinion, that is ENTIRELY custom handmaking of hats.......He's not JUST working off your circumference, unless that's ALL you give him....And you'd be silly to trust that to someone who can, and DOES make "custom" hats...

[Indiana Jeff]

A conformer is the tool. It's more or less creates a 3D mapping of a customer's head. Very useful tool if a person's head is not symmetrical (none of us are, but some are more so than others). John has pointed out it would be ideal to have every customer use one to give him the best measurements, but many customers have a problem using the paper tape measure so using a conformer with 30 moving parts will create more problems than it solves. I did that myself with my first AB order. I ended up ordering a full quarter inch too big and had to sent it back immediately for a reblock to dial in my perfect size.


As for how to define 'custom' we can fine slice that to no end.

I see the general analogy like this.

1st option: I can go into suit shop, buy a suit in my size and walk out. Same as buying a ready made factory hat.

2nd option: I can got into a suit shop, buy a suit in my size and have it tailored slightly so better fit my specific body type. Same as buying a factory hat and then having it reblocked to take the size down slightly (for me I measure between sizes in hats).

3rd option: I can get my body measurements, send them to a tailor (Magnoli Clothiers being an example) and have a suit made for me. The suit did not exist before my measurements were sent and it is being made from scratch from a bolt of material. I would call this a custom made suit. Same as sending my head measurement to a hatter to have a hat made from the raw materials of a felt body, etc.

4th option: I can go to a local tailor, get measured, have a suit started, go in for a fitting for adjustments, and then have the suit finished. Again, this is a suit being made from scratch from a bolt of material. This is also a custom made suit. Same as going to a hat shop to have the hatter measure me, see my head and face dimensions, talk about what look I'm going for, etc.

Now, it is likely the 4th option will be the best fitting of the four. That doesn't mean the 3rd option isn't a custom made hat. To me, any hat order that starts out as raw materials (felt body, ribbon, sweatband, etc.) and is created solely for me is a custom hat.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

I don't think he is saying the 3rd. Option isn't custom. I think he is saying the way I operate I try and bring that 4th option to all my customers no matter where they live. I'm always coming up with unique ways to bring that experience to customers no matter how far away they are.