Raven Handgun Switch

[Cajunkraut]

Hey, Guys - new to COW.

I apologize in advance if I'm rehashing an old topic - I couldn't find anything specific in my search.

So I was watching ROTLA again, and it occurred to me that (as far as I know), aside from much speculation, no one has really been able to determine where Indy kept his Browning Hi-Power before he switched pistols mid-shootout, or why he switched at all...clue #1.

He switches from the Bapty to the Hi-Power, but then the Bapty reappears for a split second again after the switch. Moviemistakes.com mentions the split-second of the revolver as a continuity error:

http://www.moviemistakes.com/film1040

...clue #2.

All of this together makes me think that the Raven pistol switch overall was a result of a bad edit, or some other production inconsistency.

Anyone have any other insight?

[Paladin3]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

[Cajunkraut]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

Good point, Paladin. A six-shot wheel gun isn't the best choice for dominating a gunfight...

[TenuredProfessor]

I believe it's mentioned in the 'Complete Adventures' book that Kasdan initially put into the script/character that Indy had a habit of losing or misplacing his sidearms. It's referenced again in TOD when Willie drops it out the car window during the Shanghia chase. Indy was probably being extra cautious and decided to bring a backup? Or something like that...?

[Cajunkraut]

I believe it's mentioned in the 'Complete Adventures' book that Kasdan initially put into the script/character that Indy had a habit of losing or misplacing his sidearms. It's referenced again in TOD when Willie drops it out the car window during the Shanghia chase. Indy was probably being extra cautious and decided to bring a backup? Or something like that...?

Kinda makes sense then...

[Indiana Jeff]

There's been no shortage of theories about Indy's Browning. Did he routinely carry it as a back-up? Did he haul is around in his MKVII? Did he grab it from a guard stationed outside the Raven? All plausible.

He's seen with a Browning on the Bantu Wind which would lead you to believe he routinely carried it, but he could have just gotten it from Katanga as a loaner while they were traveling.

I never noticed the S&W shows up in between Browning sitings. I'll have to watch closer.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Cajunkraut]

Don't get me wrong, I like the Hi-Power.

In 9x19 mm, it makes perfect sense as an international traveler's gun. It also has OSS/CIA implications, and whether that was intentional or not, who knows.

But it just isn't as 'old school cool' as his custom Smith.

[M1917]

In 1938, the tangent sight version of the Hi-Power was the only one that was commonly available. It is plausible that Indy won it from a Belgian officer while playing poker, but it would've been a tangent sight model.
R/S
Fritz

[Chewbacca Jones]

My assumption is that he kept the browning in his MKVII bag as back-up.

[Cajunkraut]

In 1938, the tangent sight version of the Hi-Power was the only one that was commonly available. It is plausible that Indy won it from a Belgian officer while playing poker, but it would've been a tangent sight model.
R/S
Fritz

Interesting. I learn something new every day, Fritz!

[ChrisMD]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

Good point, Paladin. A six-shot wheel gun isn't the best choice for dominating a gunfight...

Its aaaallllllll shot placement my friend. While I agree in a time of all these fancy 1911s and BHPs with 7 or more shots and better triggers a wheel gun isnt the best choice for some, but it's in the hands of the user. I carry a SAA almost as much as my Glock or 1911.

[Cajunkraut]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

Good point, Paladin. A six-shot wheel gun isn't the best choice for dominating a gunfight...

Its aaaallllllll shot placement my friend. While I agree in a time of all these fancy 1911s and BHPs with 7 or more shots and better triggers a wheel gun isnt the best choice for some, but it's in the hands of the user. I carry a SAA almost as much as my Glock or 1911.

ChrisMD,

We're talking about Hollywood, but let's splice it with reality just for giggles.

Glad to see that you're a sporting man with good taste in firearms! I'm sure you can drive nails with that SAA (Single Action Army for our viewing audience).

So we know that shot placement is critical. Those who rely on arms, tactics, and training for a living also know that combat stress alters even the best marksmanship. And we agree that Indy's six shots with moon clips (read: extremely slow reloads), plus the standard two, ideally three rounds per attacker (yes, even with .45 ACP) makes the HE2 pistol a poor choice for armed combat. There's a reason law enforcement and the military have transitioned almost exclusively to semi-auto pistols. Remember, we want to dominate the gunfight, not just survive it. I completely understand your nostalgic attachment toward your SAA (kinda like me and the PPK), but I would never recommend a revolver over a high capacity semi-auto to anyone anticipating a gunfight, specifically armed professionals or Nazi-kicking archaeologists.

So back to my original answer to Paladin...at the Raven, Indy was up against multiple assailants with both semi and fully automatic weapons in what was essentially a CQB (Close Quarters Battle) firefight - a really, really bad place to be with any handgun.

[ChrisMD]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

Good point, Paladin. A six-shot wheel gun isn't the best choice for dominating a gunfight...

Its aaaallllllll shot placement my friend. While I agree in a time of all these fancy 1911s and BHPs with 7 or more shots and better triggers a wheel gun isnt the best choice for some, but it's in the hands of the user. I carry a SAA almost as much as my Glock or 1911.

ChrisMD,

We're talking about Hollywood, but let's splice it with reality just for giggles.

Glad to see that you're a sporting man with good taste in firearms! I'm sure you can drive nails with that SAA (Single Action Army for our viewing audience).

So we know that shot placement is critical. Those who rely on arms, tactics, and training for a living also know that combat stress alters even the best marksmanship. And we agree that Indy's six shots with moon clips (read: extremely slow reloads), plus the standard two, ideally three rounds per attacker (yes, even with .45 ACP) makes the HE2 pistol a poor choice for armed combat. There's a reason law enforcement and the military have transitioned almost exclusively to semi-auto pistols. Remember, we want to dominate the gunfight, not just survive it. I completely understand your nostalgic attachment toward your SAA (kinda like me and the PPK), but I would never recommend a revolver over a high capacity semi-auto to anyone anticipating a gunfight, specifically armed professionals or Nazi-kicking archaeologists.

So back to my original answer to Paladin...at the Raven, Indy was up against multiple assailants with both semi and fully automatic weapons in what was essentially a CQB (Close Quarters Battle) firefight - a really, really bad place to be with any handgun.

All good points! The perfect handgun for Raven bar would have been, a GRENADE! Haha would be a funny remake or delete scene if he threw marion outside and tossed in a potato masher

[Cajunkraut]

Knowing Indy, stuck down in the front of his pants. Probably picked it up before going there, thinking that it was going to be a shootout for some reason.

Good point, Paladin. A six-shot wheel gun isn't the best choice for dominating a gunfight...

Its aaaallllllll shot placement my friend. While I agree in a time of all these fancy 1911s and BHPs with 7 or more shots and better triggers a wheel gun isnt the best choice for some, but it's in the hands of the user. I carry a SAA almost as much as my Glock or 1911.

ChrisMD,

We're talking about Hollywood, but let's splice it with reality just for giggles.

Glad to see that you're a sporting man with good taste in firearms! I'm sure you can drive nails with that SAA (Single Action Army for our viewing audience).

So we know that shot placement is critical. Those who rely on arms, tactics, and training for a living also know that combat stress alters even the best marksmanship. And we agree that Indy's six shots with moon clips (read: extremely slow reloads), plus the standard two, ideally three rounds per attacker (yes, even with .45 ACP) makes the HE2 pistol a poor choice for armed combat. There's a reason law enforcement and the military have transitioned almost exclusively to semi-auto pistols. Remember, we want to dominate the gunfight, not just survive it. I completely understand your nostalgic attachment toward your SAA (kinda like me and the PPK), but I would never recommend a revolver over a high capacity semi-auto to anyone anticipating a gunfight, specifically armed professionals or Nazi-kicking archaeologists.

So back to my original answer to Paladin...at the Raven, Indy was up against multiple assailants with both semi and fully automatic weapons in what was essentially a CQB (Close Quarters Battle) firefight - a really, really bad place to be with any handgun.

All good points! The perfect handgun for Raven bar would have been, a GRENADE! Haha would be a funny remake or delete scene if he threw marion outside and tossed in a potato masher

Chris, you might just be my new best friend at COW.

[cm289]

Revolver reloads are all about practice, practice, practice. This video of Jerry Miculek blows my mind...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

I've often wondered why Indy had the Browning with him at the Raven and whether it was truly supposed to be a Browning or whether it was a stand in for a 1911; supposedly 9mm blanks of that era cycled semi-autos more reliably than .45ACP. Assuming it wasn't a stand in for a 1911, my personal theory is that he pistol-whipped a Nazi standing guard outside with his S&W, stole his Browning, and stuffed it in his pants before entering. Inside, he starts fighting with the S&W simply because he's more familiar with it. Probably not the most tactically sound plan, but he's Indiana Jones- he makes it up as he goes.

[Cajunkraut]

Revolver reloads are all about practice, practice, practice. This video of Jerry Miculek blows my mind...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

I've often wondered why Indy had the Browning with him at the Raven and whether it was truly supposed to be a Browning or whether it was a stand in for a 1911; supposedly 9mm blanks of that era cycled semi-autos more reliably than .45ACP. Assuming it wasn't a stand in for a 1911, my personal theory is that he pistol-whipped a Nazi standing guard outside with his S&W, stole his Browning, and stuffed it in his pants before entering. Inside, he starts fighting with the S&W simply because he's more familiar with it. Probably not the most tactically sound plan, but he's Indiana Jones- he makes it up as he goes.

Jerry is amazing, isn't he? Guys with his talent are exceptional, and he's also not getting shot at!

289, It's crossed my mind as well that the Hi Power was supposed to represent a 1911 on screen. As a matter of fact, for years after I first saw ROTLA, that's what I thought it was. Nazi regulars would've likely carried the P38 as they did in the truck chase, but in Hollywood, anything's possible. Heck, the P38 wasn't even approved for issue until 1940.

[ChrisMD]

As long as Indy NEVER carries a C96 mauser or a hi point, im ok.

[backstagejack]

My assumption is that he kept the browning in his MKVII bag as back-up.

I concur with this. It makes the most sense especially because he has no other holster anywhere and just having it tucked in your pants for an entire adventure is incredibly reckless.

[TenuredProfessor]

My assumption is that he kept the browning in his MKVII bag as back-up.

I concur with this. It makes the most sense especially because he has no other holster anywhere and just having it tucked in your pants for an entire adventure is incredibly reckless.

This might be the case in other scenes, but Indy wasn't wearing his satchel at the Raven. It doesn't make an appearance anywhere in Nepal, nor that whole scene.

[Cajunkraut]

My assumption is that he kept the browning in his MKVII bag as back-up.

I concur with this. It makes the most sense especially because he has no other holster anywhere and just having it tucked in your pants for an entire adventure is incredibly reckless.

This might be the case in other scenes, but Indy wasn't wearing his satchel at the Raven. It doesn't make an appearance anywhere in Nepal, nor that whole scene.

[Michaelson]

Yep, that's been kicked around for quite a few years now....as well as folks being puzzled how Indy showed up with a Model 1935 Browning in 1936, the year Raiders was set in. They weren't exactly floating around the world market for public consumption at the time.

Regards! Michaelson

[backstagejack]

My assumption is that he kept the browning in his MKVII bag as back-up.

I concur with this. It makes the most sense especially because he has no other holster anywhere and just having it tucked in your pants for an entire adventure is incredibly reckless.

This might be the case in other scenes, but Indy wasn't wearing his satchel at the Raven. It doesn't make an appearance anywhere in Nepal, nor that whole scene.

Hm.... didn't think of that.

Well, in the novelization he has a car that he's borrowed from someone that he uses to drive to Marion's village. Maybe he looked through the window, saw Marion in trouble, ran back and grabbed the spare gun.......

[cm289]

Yep, that's been kicked around for quite a few years now....as well as folks being puzzled how Indy showed up with a Model 1935 Browning in 1936, the year Raiders was set in. They weren't exactly floating around the world market for public consumption at the time.

Regards! Michaelson

The MP40s are my (very minor) pet peeve.

[Indiana Bond]

Here is my frame by frame analysis of the Raven Bar scene that was also posted previously in these two threads:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37045" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


30:48 Indy uses whip to snatch hot poker from Marions face
30:50 Indy with Smith in left hand says "let her go"
30:54 Smith (Shot 1) using left hand
30:55 - 30:57 three other scenes
30:58 Smith (Shot 2) using left hand then heads towards doorway
30:59 Smith (Shot 3) swithes gun to right hand and enters doorway
31:00 Villain with machine gun
31:01 Smith in doorway ready to shoot
31:02 Villain with machine gun again
*31:02 quick one shot using HP
*31:03 Smith (shot 4 & 5) looking over Indy's shoulder
31:04 Smith (shot 6,7 & 8 ) Indy in doorway
*31:05 Indy fires 2 shots with Unknown Gun, we are looking over Villains shoulder with Indy shooting towards us
31:06 wideshot of bar
31:07 Villain dumps table
31:08 close-up of Headpiece
31:10 Villain tosses rifle
31:11 wideshot of bar
31:12 villain shoots rifle
31:13 Indy is in doorway with Smith, his left hand grabs his jacket as he looks down to put the Smith into the holster
31:14 - 31:18 A few other scenes
31:19 Indy swings his body and arms from right to left with his HP now in hand
After this Indy now only uses the HP.

Upon analysis it seems that the discrepency in the magic switching guns comes at 31:02. We also have a discrepency at 31:03 and 31:04 because with these 2 scenes we have a total of 8 shots being fired with the Smith. The scene at 31:05 is also problamatic as it would add 2 more possible shots for the Smith thus totalling 10 shots with a 6 shot revolver! The scene at 31:05 also seems out of place as he is shooting at the wrong Villain.

To correct the discrepencies all that needs to be done is to remove the three scenes I have marked with an * This would leave us a total of six shots with the Smith. It gets rid of the magically appearing HP. And it removes the out of place scene with 2 shots fired from an unknown gun.

If we made the above corrections everything works out correctly It now looks like the scenes from 31:13 to 31:19 show that Indy realizes he is out of ammo with his Smith after firing 6 shots, so he holsters the Smith and draws the HP from his pants to continue the gunfight. This is probably what was supposed to happen.

Indy's MK VII bag is never seen anywhere on him during the entire Bar scene, so he could not have gotten the HP from his bag. Also I don't think he drew it from a shoulder holster as his movements seem to suggest holstering the Smith and then drawing the HP from his pants. There is also one frame at 31:13 where it looks like you can see the HP stuck in his pants. He also could not have gotten it from Marion as she was seperated from him by the bar and a couple of villains.


Another few interesting observations:

At 31:28 we see Indy use the HP to shoot the man who is on fire. This is the exact same angle shot as the magically appearing HP scene at 31:02. That 31:02 HP scene was obviously not intended to be there as it was part of the man on fire sequence.

At 31:42 Indy reloads the HP with a new magazine after only firing 5 shots. At 32:23 he shoots the HP 4 more times. The HP is only shot a total of 9 times.

At 32:44 We see that Indy is now struggling with a villain who has taken the HP away from Indy. At 32:48 Indy forces the villains hand that is holding the HP over a fire and the villain drops the HP into the fire! After that we never see Indy retrieve the HP and it seems that he leaves the HP behind when he leaves with Marion!

How does he end up with the HP again on the Bantu Wind?! They really should have shown Indy with the Smith rather than the HP when he's on the Bantu Wind. Especially since he never fires it while on the boat.

Anyways, that was a lot of fun!! I hope it solves some mysteries and allows us all to sleep better at nights!

[Cajunkraut]

Great breakdown and analysis, Bond.

[Canada Jones]

Great thread. I always thought that Indy got his Browning from the bag but the point about him taking it from a guard outside makes much more sense. With a gun as heavy as the Browning, if he was going to carry it as a backup, then a shoulder holster would probably be more practical anyway and clearly that is not the case with Jones. Knock the guard out, grab his gun and extra clips, stuff it in your belt and head into the bar. Nice

[Cajunkraut]

Great thread. I always thought that Indy got his Browning from the bag but the point about him taking it from a guard outside makes much more sense. With a gun as heavy as the Browning, if he was going to carry it as a backup, then a shoulder holster would probably be more practical anyway and clearly that is not the case with Jones. Knock the guard out, grab his gun and extra clips, stuff it in your belt and head into the bar. Nice

Magazines...magazines...

[Canada Jones]

Great thread. I always thought that Indy got his Browning from the bag but the point about him taking it from a guard outside makes much more sense. With a gun as heavy as the Browning, if he was going to carry it as a backup, then a shoulder holster would probably be more practical anyway and clearly that is not the case with Jones. Knock the guard out, grab his gun and extra clips, stuff it in your belt and head into the bar. Nice

Magazines...magazines...

You mean he grabbed some LIFE magazines from the guy as well?!

[Cajunkraut]

Great thread. I always thought that Indy got his Browning from the bag but the point about him taking it from a guard outside makes much more sense. With a gun as heavy as the Browning, if he was going to carry it as a backup, then a shoulder holster would probably be more practical anyway and clearly that is not the case with Jones. Knock the guard out, grab his gun and extra clips, stuff it in your belt and head into the bar. Nice

Magazines...magazines...

You mean he grabbed some LIFE magazines from the guy as well?!

Maybe paper clips FOR the Life magazines.

[auntsugar]

Here is my frame by frame analysis of the Raven Bar scene that was also posted previously in these two threads:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37045" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


30:48 Indy uses whip to snatch hot poker from Marions face
30:50 Indy with Smith in left hand says "let her go"
30:54 Smith (Shot 1) using left hand
30:55 - 30:57 three other scenes
30:58 Smith (Shot 2) using left hand then heads towards doorway
30:59 Smith (Shot 3) swithes gun to right hand and enters doorway
31:00 Villain with machine gun
31:01 Smith in doorway ready to shoot
31:02 Villain with machine gun again
*31:02 quick one shot using HP
*31:03 Smith (shot 4 & 5) looking over Indy's shoulder
31:04 Smith (shot 6,7 & 8 ) Indy in doorway
*31:05 Indy fires 2 shots with Unknown Gun, we are looking over Villains shoulder with Indy shooting towards us
31:06 wideshot of bar
31:07 Villain dumps table
31:08 close-up of Headpiece
31:10 Villain tosses rifle
31:11 wideshot of bar
31:12 villain shoots rifle
31:13 Indy is in doorway with Smith, his left hand grabs his jacket as he looks down to put the Smith into the holster
31:14 - 31:18 A few other scenes
31:19 Indy swings his body and arms from right to left with his HP now in hand
After this Indy now only uses the HP.

Upon analysis it seems that the discrepency in the magic switching guns comes at 31:02. We also have a discrepency at 31:03 and 31:04 because with these 2 scenes we have a total of 8 shots being fired with the Smith. The scene at 31:05 is also problamatic as it would add 2 more possible shots for the Smith thus totalling 10 shots with a 6 shot revolver! The scene at 31:05 also seems out of place as he is shooting at the wrong Villain.

To correct the discrepencies all that needs to be done is to remove the three scenes I have marked with an * This would leave us a total of six shots with the Smith. It gets rid of the magically appearing HP. And it removes the out of place scene with 2 shots fired from an unknown gun.

If we made the above corrections everything works out correctly It now looks like the scenes from 31:13 to 31:19 show that Indy realizes he is out of ammo with his Smith after firing 6 shots, so he holsters the Smith and draws the HP from his pants to continue the gunfight. This is probably what was supposed to happen.

Indy's MK VII bag is never seen anywhere on him during the entire Bar scene, so he could not have gotten the HP from his bag. Also I don't think he drew it from a shoulder holster as his movements seem to suggest holstering the Smith and then drawing the HP from his pants. There is also one frame at 31:13 where it looks like you can see the HP stuck in his pants. He also could not have gotten it from Marion as she was seperated from him by the bar and a couple of villains.


Another few interesting observations:

At 31:28 we see Indy use the HP to shoot the man who is on fire. This is the exact same angle shot as the magically appearing HP scene at 31:02. That 31:02 HP scene was obviously not intended to be there as it was part of the man on fire sequence.

At 31:42 Indy reloads the HP with a new magazine after only firing 5 shots. At 32:23 he shoots the HP 4 more times. The HP is only shot a total of 9 times.

At 32:44 We see that Indy is now struggling with a villain who has taken the HP away from Indy. At 32:48 Indy forces the villains hand that is holding the HP over a fire and the villain drops the HP into the fire! After that we never see Indy retrieve the HP and it seems that he leaves the HP behind when he leaves with Marion!

How does he end up with the HP again on the Bantu Wind?! They really should have shown Indy with the Smith rather than the HP when he's on the Bantu Wind. Especially since he never fires it while on the boat.

Anyways, that was a lot of fun!! I hope it solves some mysteries and allows us all to sleep better at nights!

Maaaaaan---that's breakdown like the Zapruder film...lol.

I've always thought Indy grabbed it in Nepal, either upon arrival or from someone outside the Raven.

Reasons:
--Indy didn't have his MK VII
--He always travels light (one firearm would do it)--pickup more upon arrival.
--And most importantly, we never see him throw it in his suitcase when telling Marcus, "Besides, you know what a cautious fellow I am." along with his other gear.

.....and I LOVE the potato masher comment--if that would have even been in the script, it would have been up there with the Cairo Swordsman.

[Canada Jones]

Great thread. I always thought that Indy got his Browning from the bag but the point about him taking it from a guard outside makes much more sense. With a gun as heavy as the Browning, if he was going to carry it as a backup, then a shoulder holster would probably be more practical anyway and clearly that is not the case with Jones. Knock the guard out, grab his gun and extra clips, stuff it in your belt and head into the bar. Nice

Magazines...magazines...

You mean he grabbed some LIFE magazines from the guy as well?!

Maybe paper clips FOR the Life magazines.

Sorry - magazines! It is all about getting it right! One thing I had never noticed was that the HP is dropped in the fire and so he should not have it later on the Bantu Wind. Actually, if the gun was just one he grabbed from a guard outside then it would make sense for him to leave it. What does he care. Also, he reloads after just 5 shots which again could be seen as proof that he got it from a guy outside who had used it earlier but had not reloaded. The whole scene is a good example of good editing... the action is so fast you are not really paying attention to the small details. That is the beauty of the pause button!