INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM A prop revolver?

[graal]

INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM A prop revolver, Python 357 - 357 Magnum CTG, in custom-made case - used by Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones in the car chase sequence in the 1984 Lucasfilm Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom; accompanied by an collectors' edition magazine, a Marvel Super Special and a certificate of authenticity from The Twilight Zone.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/ ... 0f655480b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michaelson]

Hummm. Interesting.

Kind of puts a 'hole' in the theory it was the HE from Raiders or a Colt OP .38 being used as the firing revolver in the car during the TofD car chase.....and a Python? Why? That's one of the most expensive Colt revolvers made! Guess they'll chop up anything for a film!

Neat info! Great find!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Jeff]

Interesting indeed.

And what in the wide, wide world of sports is the COA from The Twilight Zone all about?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Michaelson]

Hey, it covers any argument that ever comes up.

The whole thing is interesting, as the .357 would have been 'era correct', since the first .357 was introduced by Smith and Wesson in 1935, same year as TofD was set in....but the Python wasn't even built until 1955, so hummm....once again, right year, right caliber, wrong gun.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bond]

From the photo it looks like it is obviously a non firing prop gun. Even with what looks like drag marks on the cylinder from the paw the finish looks too rough to be a real gun. Since the revolver used by Ford did fire I say this could have been there on set but never was seen on screen. As you know this sort of thing happens a lot. Also could it be a hoax? How reputable would a certificate of authenticity from The Twilight Zone be?

I won't put any credence to it's validity at all. With no supporting evidence from the prop house that such a gun was ever rented, I trust our source at the prop house and what we see on screen a lot more.

[Indiana Bond]

Looking at this photo even closer I don't even think this is a colt python. There is no under barrel lug and no vented above barrel sight rail. See the photo.



Unless they totally changed out the barrel this prop looks like a resin cast that has the barrel reshaped to look more vintage. That front sight looks really strange also. Also the colt logo on the grip would be a different color than the grip itself if it was real. Like I said it looks like a resin cast that has been reshaped.

In my opinion someone got duped for $2,542 in this instance!

[Michaelson]

Well, I'm not so quick to dismiss this myself, being an old gun dealer and part time 'smith' in my ancient past.

I've seen, worked on, (and fired) guns that looked a LOT rougher than this, so I'm not the least bit put off by it's rough appearance. The fact it does have the drag marks from the paw tells me it's at least functional, as no prop master is going to go through all the effort to put those on a fake gun as they aren't usually seen that long on screen, so why bother putting such deep marks on the cylinder? Barrels can and are removed and replaced to fit appearance for any particular film, and parts for the Python are a LOT more available than any period Colt or Smith.

Not saying I think this is the real 'McCoy' either, but saying there as many pros as there are cons here in my opinion, so it least deems discussion.

Anyway, it's still interesting to me it even surfaced in the first place, fake or real. There has to be SOME kind of history/track record on this or at least Christies would have red flagged it before it was offered.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bond]

Wow!! I must be blind! That prop gun doesn't even have a cylinder pin!

That proves that it isn't a real gun and also proves that it wasn't the screen used gun. You can clearly see in the screen shot below that Indy's gun has a cylinder pin.



Case closed!!

[Michaelson]

THAT'S the kind of proof I'm talking about! Well done. The Python has no pin, nor any place to insert one, even as a prop.

Yep, somebody got burned and burned badly. I wonder if it was one cobbled together for use in the chase scene in the caves at the END of the film. Lots of revolvers used in that sequence. Once again, a Python is an AWFULLY expensive revolver to chop up like that, but Hollywood has no heart.

You recall how many of the whips and swords were offered as 'screen used' from TofD, and yet no one has been able to connect them to any known scene? This may be yet another prop that fits that profile.

Once again, interesting discussion!

Regards! Michaelson

[micsteam]

The gun used in the chase sequence, firing from the car is a large frame S&W or Colt ( I belive personally it was the same S&W HE from Raiders). Could this piece be the drop gun ??? I dunno but I distinctly remember from recently watching the Bluy-Ray that even the peice Willy drops out the window has a cylinder pin. What do you guys think ??

[Michaelson]

Something's amiss, that's for sure.

Like I said, I wonder if it was one used in the mine car chase at the END of the film. The Thugee guards used quite a few revolvers in that sequence.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bond]

The gun used in the chase sequence, firing from the car is a large frame S&W or Colt ( I belive personally it was the same S&W HE from Raiders). Could this piece be the drop gun ??? I dunno but I distinctly remember from recently watching the Bluy-Ray that even the peice Willy drops out the window has a cylinder pin. What do you guys think ??

micsteam,

Four years ago we went through a very extensive process identifying the handguns used in the car chase segment in TOD. Here is the link to the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38086" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please read through that thread as we don't need to rehash what we already worked so hard on 4 years ago.

Thanks!!

[Michaelson]

[Please read through that thread as we don't need to rehash what we already worked so hard on 4 years ago.

Thanks!!

Whoa, hold up there, IB. If folks want to rehash it, it's their perogative. Let's not talk like an administrator/moderator here. We'll allow it if anyone wants to continue to look at the matter. That's the whole point of a discussion forum. If anything, it can only help to reinforcement what has already been done, or find new information. There's no such thing as a closed door policy here.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bond]

Sorry! Poorly worded.

I just wanted to direct micsteam to the research already done. By all means we can continue the discussion especially with new info that may have come up since 4 years ago.

My apologies!

[knibs7]

The only Thuggee revolver I can get relatively good pictures of don't seem to be the gun in question.






Kyle

[Indiana Bond]

knibs7,

Great screen grabs. I agree the revolver does not look like the one in question. I do see a cylinder pin. Also looks a bit smaller like it could be a Colt OP. Does anyone know if these Thuggee scenes where filmed in Hollywood or England?

[ChrisMD]

There is only one way to know for sure. You guys purchase all the firearms in question and send them to me for testing and evaluation. Ill even provide lifetime storage! I also accept fedoras, jackets, whips, and other gear. Heck I'm feeling generous, ill pay shipping!



Mail is hit or miss, sorry if everything doesnt make it back.

[Indiana Jeff]

Does anyone know if these Thuggee scenes where filmed in Hollywood or England?

According to The Complete Making of Indiana Jones book, the mine car scenes were all filmed in London.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Michaelson]

Sorry! Poorly worded.

I just wanted to direct micsteam to the research already done. By all means we can continue the discussion especially with new info that may have come up since 4 years ago.

My apologies!

My apologies as well.

Regards! M

[Indiana Bond]

Does anyone know if these Thuggee scenes where filmed in Hollywood or England?

According to The Complete Making of Indiana Jones book, the mine car scenes were all filmed in London.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Well if those scenes were filmed in England then the info provided by Brandon on the guns rented from Stembridge won't be of any help in this mater. He does mention that a Colt Official Police .38 w/ 3" barrel and a Smith and Wesson .38 were rented from Bapty in England for TOD. It's interesting to note that, as far as I know, there were never any 3" Colt OP's ever produced. I think it mat have been just a measuring mistake by Bapty as Stembridge substituted a 4" barrel Colt OP instead and that is the gun we see Willie Scott fumbling in the car chase scene.

Again like I mentioned the screne grabs of the Thuggees look like the revolver could be the smaller frame Colt OP. It's definitely not the revolver that was sold at the Christies auction.

It also mentions that the handgun was accompanied by an collectors' edition magazine, a Marvel Super Special. Anyone have an idea what this comic may be? I'm curious if they show a revolver in that comic and this revolver is a "real life" copy of that gun. I have seen many times in comics that a revolver may be drawn without the cylinder pin. Maybe it was suppose to represent such a revolver.

Who knows??!

[Indiana Jeff]

Heck, for all that this particular gun could have been used by the "3rd Thuggee from the left in the shadows behind the oil drum."

Screen used?

Technically.....


Of course, none of this supports the auction notice that this gun was used by HF in the car chase.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Indiana Bond]

Of course, none of this supports the auction notice that this gun was used by HF in the car chase.

Exactly!! And that's the real issue here. They say it was used by HF in the car chase. But it is quite obvious that it actually wasn't used as the revolvers on screen definitely show a cylinder pin and the Christies gun doesn't have one.

Like Michaelson said:

You recall how many of the whips and swords were offered as 'screen used' from TofD, and yet no one has been able to connect them to any known scene? This may be yet another prop that fits that profile.

I think we can pretty safely assume that this is not an authentic item.

[micsteam]

micsteam,

Four years ago we went through a very extensive process identifying the handguns used in the car chase segment in TOD. Here is the link to the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38086

Please read through that thread as we don't need to rehash what we already worked so hard on 4 years ago.

Thanks!!

Ok IndianaBond, I read that thread sometime ago before making my statement/post here and it was a very interesting and entertaining thread, however, I wasn't a member here yet and didn't participate in this thread so I could not make my input or ask questions nor did I personally confirm your findings (I am speaking for my satisfaction). Without speaking directly to the propmasters on the film that directly handled the guns in question the thread's conclusions are speculation, although well informed and well thought out, I say lets call it a theory and a very good one. Here's where I disagree and then I won't go off on a tangent here (Mods) too much: I agree the drop gun is a S&W and that the gun fired from the car during the chase could be a Colt (this to me is still in question as it is still out of focus even in the Blu-Ray, you can't truly make out if the cylinder pin has a shroud (S&W) or not (Colt) although there are shots when Willy handles Indy's gun where it looks like a Colt). I don't agree, inconclusive, that the revolvers Colt or S&W used in the chase are small frame guns (.38s). That being said, here's the wopper.... it's my opinion... that's it. You don't have to agree with my opinion, I mean I even said that " I personally beleive " in my post. Please understand, I was not trying to insult or demean the work you and other members here contributed and discussd, however, please don't put it on me or anyone else as to your conclusions as being fact, you took your work for fact, not me.

As to this prop revolver, I agree that the Christies Prop is not authentic, at least not used in any of the firing sequences that were in the movie. "My opinion" is it is a hacked up prop made to seem like a period large frame Colt that could have, big stretch, been in the movie in some capacity.

[Indiana Bond]

Please understand, I was not trying to insult or demean the work you and other members here contributed and discussd, however, please don't put it on me or anyone else as to your conclusions as being fact, you took your work for fact, not me.

micsteam,

No offense taken at all. I just wanted to make sure you had read through all the research we had already done 4 years ago. Especially since it seemed that you may have not know of the previous research that we had done. You also quite strongly stated "The gun used in the chase sequence, firing from the car is a large frame S&W or Colt". You then said in parentheses "(I belive personally it was the same S&W HE from Raiders)". To me it seemed that you were making a statement of fact that the revolver was a large frame and you "believed" that it could have been the revolver from Raiders. You did NOT say I believe the gun used in the chase sequence, firing from the car could have been a large frame S&W or Colt. To me it didn't seem like you meant that it was just your opinion or belief that it was a large frame revolver but instead that it was fact. My apologies if I mistook your meaning. Furthermore you did ask "What do you guys think ??" so I simply replied with what I thought by pointing out the thread that contained all of our previous research.

I do agree that it is next to impossible to make out any detail in the revolver HF fires. So positive ID on that revolver is still questionable. However the Willie Scott "fumble" gun is pretty conclusive as long as we agree on the information provided by Brandon from the Stembridge files regarding the revolvers provided by them for the filming.

Brandon said:

Neither the BAPTY or the Stembridge Raiders pistol was used in the production of TOD. Stembridge rented guns to the production of TOD that were a close match to the photos sent from the UK. These guns included a Webley 455 WG Army Model, a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel, and a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel.

If these were the 3 revolvers available during the filming of the Willie Scott "fumble" than it is obviously not the Webley and the photographic evidence presented in the "GUN IDENTIFIED!!! - ToD car chase" thread proves that it wasn't the 5 inch S&W thus leaving only the 4" Colt OP.

So I guess, in my opinion based on the facts that we gathered, I believe the "fumble" gun in the TOD car chase scene must be a 4" Colt OP. You, of course, can have another idea or opinion and I do welcome that as it always leads to interesting and educational discussions and that's what this forum is all about!

Thanks again!!