Fair market price for S&W HE2 .455?

[IndyOriginal]

Hey guys, just wanted any expert opinions on what a fair market price would be for a S&W HE2 in .455, specifically because its so difficult to find .455 ammo these days. Do you think that affects the fair market value of a find in relatively good condition?

Thanks for any input.

[Michaelson]

Not really. It all depends on where you live. .455 ammo is more readily available in more rural areas (not sure why, but it is), and where you're listed as living in D.C., that could be the reason you're having such a hard time finding a source for your revolver.

Here's an interesting discussion on the S&W forum from 2006 that may help if you're a hand loader, or KNOW a hand loader who could make some up for you from other gun brass. It's discussed down in this thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-e ... ition.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What impacts price is condition/condition/condition.

Oh, did I mention 'condition'?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_v ... orld_War_1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

THAT'S what determines 'fair market value', and folks tend to follow the NRA guidelines regarding condtion in the markets I've been involved with, as well as the points brought up in the link above.

Regards! Michaelson

[IndyOriginal]

Thanks for the info Michaelson. Yeah, thankfully I only work in DC, but live in VA. Owning a firearm in the District is either still illegal, or a major headache. Haven't looked into that can of worms for awhile now.

[ChrisMD]

Thanks for the info Michaelson. Yeah, thankfully I only work in DC, but live in VA. Owning a firearm in the District is either still illegal, or a major headache. Haven't looked into that can of worms for awhile now.

Just a headache. Not illegal anymore because Heller vs McDonald. Luckily im 50 miles North of DC. Traffic still *****, but at least I can enjoy my guns.

[micsteam]

I believe you can purchase ammo online or through catalog and have it shipped, I did and that was back in 2006 and I live in Florida I'm not sure what restrictions you have. As far as fair market value for a S&W HE2 .455, I would say apprx. $800-$1600 possibly more as these are uncommon (these prices reflect an very good to excellent condition revolver that is in safe firing condition). Most .455 Ely HEs were chambered in this round for British and Canadian use in and around WWI and a lot of these were modified/machined to fire the .45 ACP round (they pretty much did this by cutting the cylinder down to allow room for use with the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) and a half moon clip as the .45 ACP round has no rim to stabilize it in the cylinder, you could say these were one of the original speed loaders. The .45 ACP round was more prevelent during WWI so a lot of Colt, S&W, and Webley revolvers were machined to accept this round. I have a S&W HE2 .45 so if you need any help or other info let me know.

[Mark Brody]

I think I did a search of them on GunBroker a few months ago, and the prices were comparable to the M1917. They look so similar, I went with the 1917 because of the availability of .45ACP ammo.

[micsteam]

Yes, if you look, what does the average M1917 S&W go for... around $800 apprx. or slightly more right ?? OK, take into account that most .455 and .45 rim cartridge (or lc ... correct me if I'm wrong) revolvers were cut down to accept the .45 ACP, it was a general practice at the time, which also reduces the value. Again, still uncommon to rare, to have a excellent conditon or very good condition (safely fireable) .455 Ely S&W HE2 (which most in this caliber had an 6.5" barrel) under $850-$1600 is rare or has issues. Just my two cents

[ChrisMD]

Yes, if you look, what does the average M1917 S&W go for... around $800 apprx. or slightly more right ?? OK, take into account that most .455 and .45 rim cartridge (or lc ... correct me if I'm wrong) revolvers were cut down to accept the .45 ACP, it was a general practice at the time, which also reduces the value. Again, still uncommon to rare, to have a excellent conditon or very good condition (safely fireable) .455 Ely S&W HE2 (which most in this caliber had an 6.5" barrel) under $850-$1600 is rare or has issues. Just my two cents

The few .45 long colt revolvers that were double action were already uncommon to begin with and it was rather uncommon to cut them down. .45 LC is a much more available cartridge (especially here in the US) so people just accepted it. Also the fact that it can be loaded hotter than .44 magnum if you have a revolver capable of handling such a hot load. Remember, the .455 is a VERY poor round as far as ballistics is concerned. Another reason for cut downs. 45 colt is a round that can be easily tailored to any task. Plinking, self defense, hunting etc. just switch up powders and bullets and your set. I carry a SAA in .45 colt with Hornady Leverevolution 250 grain ballistic tip rounds in the winter sometimes. its like a fedora, classy . A variety of reasons makes the .45 colt revolvers more common in original form than cutdowns. Cutdowns are blasphemy. Plus most .45 colt revolvers are single action. As for a HE2 in .455 it really is dependent on the individual firearm. Condition, finish, factory, rarities, round count, significant serial number etc. alot to factor in and given that ive never looked for one actively i cant give a good figure. However as a collector a "good deal" is in the eye of the beholder. Happy hunting!

[M1917]

A lot of the guns that came over in .455 Webley (.455 Eley) were converted to .45 ACP by shaving the back side of the cylinder down. That way you could use half moon or full moon clips, or use .45 Auto Rim cartridges. Since these guns have been previously modified, they have less collector's value. You can often pick them up for $500.00 or less if you look. Check sone of the online auction houses like Gunbroker or Guns America. I have a Webley Mk. VI that was converted that way, that I bought from a board member. I located an unaltered .455 cyliner so I can shoot both .45 ACP and .455 Webley by switching cylinders.
R/S
Fritz

[Rook]

I'd caution you about shooting .45ACP through a Webley though. Seen some pics where the barrel failed due to
the pressure differences. Scary stuff. Cracks though the thickest parts, bulges that deformed the metal,
cracked cylinders, etc.

The .45 ACP JHP comes out at about 210 PSI (/100) at 1,055 fps.

Near as I can find, the .455 comes out at about 140 PSI (/100) @ 750-900 fps. Also, the .455 _was_
a black powder cartridge, where the .45 ACP is smokeless, so the .455 is going to be a less powerful round.


EDIT: Found some more info on the following site: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ ... 5-Auto-Rim

1. The operating pressure for the Mark VI Webley revolver (the last, and strongest, of the .455 Webley service revolvers) was a maximum of 13,200 PSI (i.e. six 'long tons' of 2200 lbs).

2. The standard operating pressure generated by milspec and full factory loads of .45 ACP ball ammunition is 19,000 PSI.

3. The pressure of .45 ACP milspec and standard factory loads exceeds the proof load for the Mark VI Webley revolver.

4. The dimensions of the chamber throats on Webley service revolvers are a bit variable, but generally are smaller than bore diameter for some reason - but this system worked well with the original hollowbase bullet design, which was quite soft (20/1 lead/tin) and non-jacketed. These soft bullets swage down passing through the chamber throat (.... my own view is that this was intentional, to get the most out of the relatively small powder charge, and thus maximize the velocity produced ....) but then the base expands nicely to engage the rifling in the bore. However, the general consensus is that jacketed bullets (such as those loaded in most GI-spec .45ACP ammo) can work to dramatically increase the already excessive chamber pressure generated by such rounds.

5. Furthermore, the earlier models of .455 Webley service revolver were not as strong as the Mark VI. Indeed, the Mark I, Mark II and Mark III revolvers (and the WG) were in fact designed for black powder loads.

Although it cannot be denied that many .455 Webley revolvers have survived being subjected for a long time to standard .45 ACP ammunition, that is equivalent to having been fed a steady diet of proof loads. Simply put, it is a testament to the sturdiness of Webley service revolvers, but can hardly be considered either safe or advisable!

Failures can - and do - happen! For example, here is one altered Webley Mark VI which suffered a catastrophic failure firing .45 ACP ammunition -

You may be wondering what you can do with a .455 revolver altered to take .45 ACP cartridges. Fortunately, if otherwise still sound, the revolver should be quite safe to fire using .45 ACP (or .45 Auto Rim) cases with non-jacketed bullets and reloaded to .455 levels.

The site link above also has pictures of a MKVI that suffered a CATASTROPHIC FAILURE when firing .45 ACP.

So, again, stay cautious my friends.

[ChrisMD]

I'd caution you about shooting .45ACP through a Webley though. Seen some pics where the barrel failed due to
the pressure differences. Scary stuff. Cracks though the thickest parts, bulges that deformed the metal,
cracked cylinders, etc.

The .45 ACP JHP comes out at about 210 PSI (/100) at 1,055 fps.

Near as I can find, the .455 comes out at about 140 PSI (/100) @ 750-900 fps. Also, the .455 _was_
a black powder cartridge, where the .45 ACP is smokeless, so the .455 is going to be a less powerful round.


EDIT: Found some more info on the following site: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ ... 5-Auto-Rim

1. The operating pressure for the Mark VI Webley revolver (the last, and strongest, of the .455 Webley service revolvers) was a maximum of 13,200 PSI (i.e. six 'long tons' of 2200 lbs).

2. The standard operating pressure generated by milspec and full factory loads of .45 ACP ball ammunition is 19,000 PSI.

3. The pressure of .45 ACP milspec and standard factory loads exceeds the proof load for the Mark VI Webley revolver.

4. The dimensions of the chamber throats on Webley service revolvers are a bit variable, but generally are smaller than bore diameter for some reason - but this system worked well with the original hollowbase bullet design, which was quite soft (20/1 lead/tin) and non-jacketed. These soft bullets swage down passing through the chamber throat (.... my own view is that this was intentional, to get the most out of the relatively small powder charge, and thus maximize the velocity produced ....) but then the base expands nicely to engage the rifling in the bore. However, the general consensus is that jacketed bullets (such as those loaded in most GI-spec .45ACP ammo) can work to dramatically increase the already excessive chamber pressure generated by such rounds.

5. Furthermore, the earlier models of .455 Webley service revolver were not as strong as the Mark VI. Indeed, the Mark I, Mark II and Mark III revolvers (and the WG) were in fact designed for black powder loads.

Although it cannot be denied that many .455 Webley revolvers have survived being subjected for a long time to standard .45 ACP ammunition, that is equivalent to having been fed a steady diet of proof loads. Simply put, it is a testament to the sturdiness of Webley service revolvers, but can hardly be considered either safe or advisable!

Failures can - and do - happen! For example, here is one altered Webley Mark VI which suffered a catastrophic failure firing .45 ACP ammunition -

You may be wondering what you can do with a .455 revolver altered to take .45 ACP cartridges. Fortunately, if otherwise still sound, the revolver should be quite safe to fire using .45 ACP (or .45 Auto Rim) cases with non-jacketed bullets and reloaded to .455 levels.

The site link above also has pictures of a MKVI that suffered a CATASTROPHIC FAILURE when firing .45 ACP.

So, again, stay cautious my friends.

Modern production JHP (Jacketed HollowPoints) are made hotter than standard military ball and target ammunition. Firing a 225-250gr slug will produce velocities around 750-900, and thus lower pressure. 900 being the high end and accounting for military surplus ammo. As far as shooting .45ACP through a Webley you are ok as long as the firearm is in sound condition and you use target ammunition. Stick with federal, american eagle, or even Prvi. Get any used firearm inspected before buying/shooting anyway. I echo your sentiments of always being cautious but in this case .45ACP causing a catastrophic failure is a rare exception instead of the rule. If it were me, id stick to what the poster above me said. Slightly lower powered hand loads and cast lead bullets. Heck throw in some Trailboss powder instead and have a nice old fashioned time.

[micsteam]

Good info, I fire JHPs in my HE2 from TTI armory and they're fantastic.

[Lee Keppler]

Saw a Second Model HE .455 with the chamber deepened to accept .45 Colt with 6 1/2" barrel and the proper grips at the Big Reno Show a couple of weeks ago. $1800.00. It was there Friday but was gone by Sat. Having the chamber deepened ruins the collector's value and it still went.

[ChrisMD]

Saw a Second Model HE .455 with the chamber deepened to accept .45 Colt with 6 1/2" barrel and the proper grips at the Big Reno Show a couple of weeks ago. $1800.00. It was there Friday but was gone by Sat. Having the chamber deepened ruins the collector's value and it still went.

Funny you mention that. There seems to be a niche for oddball guns like that. Ive seen people scarf up all kinds of strange caliber conversions and "bubba" jobs.


Sent from a bathroom inside the Death Star

[Cajunkraut]

Saw a Second Model HE .455 with the chamber deepened to accept .45 Colt with 6 1/2" barrel and the proper grips at the Big Reno Show a couple of weeks ago. $1800.00. It was there Friday but was gone by Sat. Having the chamber deepened ruins the collector's value and it still went.

...and you said no one has money to burn these days.

[micsteam]

Gotta watch out because some of these guns went out chambered for .45 ACP for moon clips to....