Could the Raiders hat be a GROSVENOR?

[Mike]

Steven Spielberg didn't worked with Harrison Ford in a non-Indy movie, and that's telling nothing to me.

Actually he did. E.T.. Though there was also a connection there with his (then) wife having written it. But his scene was ultimately cut.

Though to be honest, I'm surprised he hasn't worked with Steven more. There were plenty of his movies where I thought Harrison would fit in well, sometimes better than who was chosen.

[Indiego Jones]

I don't remember the address. The crest was blue with some sort of bird?
I got it from Steve Delk - you'd have to ask him for more details. I'm pretty sure he hadn't done anything to it as he used it to compare with his own blocks- Again, he could tell you more than I could. It's now owned by someone who is no longer welcomed around here - a Frenchman (no, not Belloq )

That's what I thought. And I think Delk reblocked it.

Here is at Delk's workshop: (clic to enlarge)



More and more I am inclined to accept that the Penman theory is correct.
The Raiders hat was made ​​by Swales, upon request.
Maybe using current felt at the time, or even Poet hats stripped out, but blocked on a very different block than the "Poet".

[Michaelson]

The Raiders hat was made ​​by Swales, upon request. On a very different block than the "Poet".

Not sure I understand this comment, IJ. The 'Poet' was/is the name of an unbashed hat model HJ sold/sells, not a block name.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiego Jones]

The Raiders hat was made ​​by Swales, upon request. On a very different block than the "Poet".

Not sure I understand this comment, IJ. The 'Poet' was/is the name of an unbashed hat model HJ sold/sells, not a block name.

Regards! Michaelson

I'm sorry, I was editing for clarify during your posting...I'm too slow

[Michaelson]

Just for fun, and comparison, here's what HJ themselves are posting on their site:

http://www.swaineadeney.co.uk/products/poet_hat/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has been stated above by BO, and I'm sure thought by others:

Don't fault me for not taking 2nd hand account as fact. Besides after recent past events I don't believe anyone's stories.

Of course no one will fault you or ANYONE for thinking what they want.

I will, though, post a first hand comment by Mrs. D. Landis, sent directly to the Indygear.com administrative account on June 14th, 2007, in which she says the following regarding Harrison Ford's footwear that she personally purchased for use in the film:

He wore Red Wing work boots, by the way, which I bought on Ventura Blvd. in the San Fernando Valley.

All the best,
Dr. Deborah Nadoolman Landis
President, The Costume Designers Guild, Local 892

Did she actually do this? I have every confidence she did, as a pair WAS found in the warehouse in a search back in the early 90's and reported at Indyfan.com, but once again, THIS confirmation is 'second hand', but does indeed back what she said first hand. Do we believe it or not? We ALL know these were NOT used in ANY IJ films.

So, you sometimes have to question 1st AND 2nd hand information, as somewhere in the middle you may find the truth.

Regards! M



Regards! Michaelson

[whiskyman]

I don't remember the address. The crest was blue with some sort of bird?
I got it from Steve Delk - you'd have to ask him for more details. I'm pretty sure he hadn't done anything to it as he used it to compare with his own blocks- Again, he could tell you more than I could. It's now owned by someone who is no longer welcomed around here - a Frenchman (no, not Belloq )

That's what I thought. And I think Delk reblocked it.

Here is at Delk's workshop: (clic to enlarge)



More and more I am inclined to accept that the Penman theory is correct.
The Raiders hat was made ​​by Swales, upon request.
Maybe using current felt at the time, or even Poet hats stripped out, but blocked on a very different block than the "Poet".

Yeah that looks like the one. Didn't know he'd blocked it - although that wouldn't have mattered to me.

[backstagejack]

Sorry Jeff those stories about her blowing the budget is just that, stories.

I will say, I remember an interview with SS stating that he came in under budget for Raiders and how surprised he was.... now if costuming is included in his grand total of "under budget" I don't know....

I will, though, post a first hand comment by Mrs. D. Landis, sent directly to the Indygear.com administrative account on June 14th, 2007, in which she says the following regarding Harrison Ford's footwear that she personally purchased for use in the film:

He wore Red Wing work boots, by the way, which I bought on Ventura Blvd. in the San Fernando Valley.

All the best,
Dr. Deborah Nadoolman Landis
President, The Costume Designers Guild, Local 892

Did she actually do this? I have every confidence she did, as a pair WAS found in the warehouse in a search back in the early 90's and reported at Indyfan.com, but once again, THIS confirmation is 'second hand', but does indeed back what she said first hand. Do we believe it or not? We ALL know these were NOT used in ANY IJ films.

So, you sometimes have to question 1st AND 2nd hand information, as somewhere in the middle you may find the truth.

Regards! M



Regards! Michaelson

See, this calls into question anything she says.....and not cause I Think she's lying. Cause it's been SO many years.... I would have to think any quote from her regarding the hat.... I'd take the earliest one..

[Indiana Jeff]

ROLA came in under time and under budget overall.

In the interview transcript I linked above, DN-L says she spent all the jacket budget on jackets from Wilson and ultimately couldn't distress them so she had to go back to SS (who was very worried about the budget) and request more money to buy better jackets.

Incidentally the interview took place years before any of the CS hype when interest (outside these hallowed halls ) was at an all time low. Once the CS hype hit, her story became very consistent.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Michaelson]

Just continuing to looking at old 'first hand information', re-read what was posted in this 2005 discussion, and once again, first hand information in the form of an email by Ms. Landis to one of our members:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12647&p=163056&hili ... er#p163056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note in her email in the first post, there is no mention by name of the famous 'Austrialian' model that has been bantered about and quoted by her for the past several years as being THE source/model of the Raiders hat.

The oldest reference to the Australian model I can find in a search of this site was a post made in January of the same year, 2005, this from her comments on one of the DVD bonus materials:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11219&hilit=Australian+model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This just for comparison to comments made in the first post where it wasn't mentioned. Of interest is the fact it was emphasized what kind it was in the January thread, but not specifically mentioned in the June email, and both first hand comments from the designer, so it seems the importance was shifting back and forth as to what kind of hat the prototype was.

In the June email, was she talking about this particular hat with this statement:

There, I started with a hat which had the body and strength that I needed for the action - and was of course the right shade of brown.

We can assume that is the case, but we all know what assumptions are, so unless it's stated, we can't say it was one way or the other. We can only assume based on other comments made at other times...but then that would be considered 2nd hand information if so stated.

It's interesting to compare these emails from two data points in 2005, and then in 2007 she once again emphatically states in the email to Indygear that it was, indeed, an Australian model and that she had never heard of Richard Swales.

Then you have the claim by HJ and Swales himself in letters he packed with every HJ he made that told HIS story of how the hat came about. The way their website reads, and correct me if I'm reading it wrong, but they make it sound like all creation and final design tweaks were done by Swaine and co (Swales) under direct supervision of Ford and Spielberg at the shop. That's the story Swales repeated to individuals who walked in his shop or called til the day he died, and he stated it in writing. If not true, why hasn't Mrs. Landis sued Swaine and co. for slander or libel? Puzzling, but in the larger picture, maybe not worth all the money and effort....but HJ sure has sold a lot of hats using this story, and continue to do so.

All interesting if you're following such things, and all considered 1st person comments from the primary participants involved with the production.

Like I said, the actual truth lies somewhere in the middle.

We also beat the @#$% out of this back last August to no good effect, so I'm not sure what is being gained by hammering this yet again.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57814&hilit=Australian+model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Just wanted to make a comment on the HJ of whiskey man. If that is the same hat I think it is, Steve did reblock it.

As for the others Richard always sounded like he was reading of his on site when talking about the raiders hat.

I'm always suspicious of anyone memory of something if it is told word by word every single time.

As for the boots, that helps my piont of view. She remembers the redwings and bang they found redwings. I don't expect her to remember everything little detail when asked about a job. Remember it's just a job to her. And one job of many. To us, It's our little world.

I'm not saying ford didn't handle and tweaked the crease, that Richard didn't make the hat. I'm saying she brought the hat from drawing to reality and she is the only difference in the three movies. She is the X factor, the visionary, and I'm glad she was apart of that movie because without her we might not be chasing after some of the things we do.

Thank you Debra.

[Indiana Jeff]

By the by, it's Deborah.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

Well by the by it's auto correct on my iPad.

[backstagejack]

....

I'm not saying ford didn't handle and tweaked the crease, that Richard didn't make the hat. I'm saying she brought the hat from drawing to reality and she is the only difference in the three movies. She is the X factor, the visionary, and I'm glad she was apart of that movie because without her we might not be chasing after some of the things we do.

Thank you Debra.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

By this logic, I would have to agree..... but I am a novice in the company of scholars....

[whiskyman]

I think part of the problem with all these acounts from DN and RS is that neither of them knew the whole story. Going with the boots example..DN probably remembers correctly that she bought a specific pair of boots for the main actor in that adventure movie all those years ago to match the costume design she made. The fact that said actor chose not to wear them might never have been known by her. Hence she still maintains those were the boots in the movie. Something similar could easily have happened with the hat. DN rmembers what she wanted and what actions she took to get the right lokoing hat. RS remembered certain things going on in his shop and various people he met to have a hat made. They may both be right in what they eaxch remember- but unless one of us gets to speak to SS or HF (who I'm sure would LOVE to discuss such issues ) we'll never know which elements of these accounts are present in our favourite hat.

[Canyon]

Wow! Over 100 replies. What have I started??

Seriously though, thank you all so much for your input and replies. I appreciate it.

Now, where is Chewie?!?

[Michaelson]

I think part of the problem with all these acounts from DN and RS is that neither of them knew the whole story. Going with the boots example..DN probably remembers correctly that she bought a specific pair of boots for the main actor in that adventure movie all those years ago to match the costume design she made. The fact that said actor chose not to wear them might never have been known by her. Hence she still maintains those were the boots in the movie. Something similar could easily have happened with the hat. DN rmembers what she wanted and what actions she took to get the right lokoing hat. RS remembered certain things going on in his shop and various people he met to have a hat made. They may both be right in what they eaxch remember- but unless one of us gets to speak to SS or HF (who I'm sure would LOVE to discuss such issues ) we'll never know which elements of these accounts are present in our favourite hat.

Agreed totally, whisky. Like I've said, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

HIGH regards! Michaelson

[whiskyman]

Oh no... the space between spaces!!!!!!!!!!

[Michaelson]

[tedquinton]

Wow. I'm a history graduate...and I thought the 30 Years War was complicated!

By whatever route an by what accident of fate I'm glad we have the raiders movie history and costuming we do ( well they could have worked on iv a bit longer).

Ted

[backstagejack]

Wow. I'm a history graduate...and I thought the 30 Years War was complicated!

By whatever route an by what accident of fate I'm glad we have the raiders movie history and costuming we do ( well they could have worked on iv a bit longer).

Ted

Being quite the fan of history myself, this website alone is proof that even first hand accounts can be suspect.... really begs the question, what do we really know about history? hahaha

[Michaelson]

Short answer? It depends on whose history do you choose to believe?

Regards! M

[ChrisMD]

Yes, it's crazy how information gets mixed up. For the original question,I would say no it's not. It's a HJ poet that was custom worked using Debra's proto type as a model ( she used a HJ Australian model hat as a raw body). Again, a Australian model was stripped down and used like a raw body, that's all. The Raiders hat wasn't a Australian model hat. It was a HJ poet. Just trying to be clear. I think people in the past have read way too much into things.

I think its the editing on the special features disk that got everyone confused.

[mark seven]

I think the Raiders hat was not a Poet-different block shape entirely.I think the hat used for Raiders was the one in this pic from Raiders era HJ catalogue-third hat down on far left hand side(the purply coloured one)
The Poet style is second down on far left hand side.

One of the Nazi's is wearing that style of hat unbashed in the SOC scenes-pretty much the Raiders hat but in Grey.I Wish I could read the inscription to read what style it was called!
I think this was the same block used for Indy's Raiders hat and maybe it was just easier for Swales to say it was the Poet that was used for all 3 films as HJ still stocked the Poet hats for sale(..and if the Raiders block had been lost!).

[fifthchamber]

I think the Raiders hat was not a Poet-different block shape entirely.I think the hat used for Raiders was the one in this pic from Raiders era HJ catalogue-third hat down on far left hand side(the purply coloured one)
The Poet style is second down on far left hand side.

One of the Nazi's is wearing that style of hat unbashed in the SOC scenes-pretty much the Raiders hat but in Grey.I Wish I could read the inscription to read what style it was called!
I think this was the same block used for Indy's Raiders hat and maybe it was just easier for Swales to say it was the Poet that was used for all 3 films as HJ still stocked the Poet hats for sale(..and if the Raiders block had been lost!).

I think the hat being worn by the Nazi in the SoC scenes has been identified as the hat worn by Ford when boarding the plane to Nepal the first time, and is indeed similar to the brown version, in a different colour..You can see a line on the front of the hat where the crease was put in (as the Nazi wears it), but the hat itself has been left uncreased for those scenes to show it being different from the hat worn by Ford on the plane...

As for the photo above, I could be wrong, but I see it saying something like "..................(Something I can't read) Blue "Poet" Hat"......Maybe I'm off...But I just can't make out the first word used...

Regards..

[BendingOak]

I don't think we ever got confirmation that the travel hat was the same as the nazi hat. No proof but I think it's the same hat. As for the add, it kinda looks like it but from that angle it could be any hat. It could be a TOD or a LC hat for that matter. It also looks like the ribbon is smaller.