Brim width question/ musing

[darthjones]

Was wondering - I guess the Raiders hat is supposed to have been 2 5/8 x 2 7/8 whereas the CS hat we know is 2 1/2 x 2 3/4. BUT - given that the Raiders hat has that obliteration of the brim break and raised ribbon....

Let me put it this way - might the Raiders brim be measured from the bottom of the raised ribbon? Might the additional height of the ribbon account for the slightly wider look?

Would love to see someone's photo shop of the Raiders hat with the ribbon lowered back down to factory position. The Well of Souls hat is a great one to look at for this and I tried to load an image here but can't make heads or tails of that. Try at the link below but give it time for the slideshow image to load.

Maybe there are wider/ narrower brim widths in Raiders.

Just thinking out loud. It's probably been covered some place before, huh...

http://greensleeves-hubs.hubpages.com/h ... ide5261432" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Texan Scott]

It might look slightly taller but not necessarily wider. Measure at the brim break.

[Indiana Jeff]

Richard Swales through multiple interviews with COW members over the years gave the dimensional cut as 2 3/4" x 2 5/6". Those are the dimensions when he made the fedoras before they were broken in.

According to that, the CS hats are only slightly narrower. (EDIT for clarity.)

I think any perceived difference in the Raiders hats being wider is due to HF's face being thinner in Raiders.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[WConly]

Richard Swales through multiple interviews with COW members over the years gave the dimensional cut as 2 3/4" x 2 5/6". Those are the dimensions when he made the fedoras before they were broken in.

The CS hats are only slightly wider.

I think any perceived difference in the Raiders hAts being wider is due to HF's face being thinner in Raiders.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I think you have hit the nail dead on here. Just recently I made the same observation in reviewing pics from all four movies and came up with the same conclusion. There are not enough differences in the hats (other then blocks and bashes) to come to any other conclusion. At least to my simple mind. W>

[BendingOak]

Jeff you got you fact wrong. CS is 2 3/4 x 2 1/2.

And the Raiders have always been off. Richard would never give a measurement in inches as he works in CM. the other thing to consider is he cut all the hats ( at least for the customers by hand with a pair of scissors( the ones I have seen ) and they haven't even been cut down. I would take his account with a grain of salt.

I think it's very hard to get a accurate reading of the brim because the brim did soften up so much. Making it appear slightly smaller then it was.

[Indiana Jeff]

Not sure what facts to which you are referring, I didn't comment on the CS dimensions and what you list is the same as what darthjones posted first.

I did inadvertantly state the CS hats were slightly wider when I ment to say narrower.

I took the Raider's measurements from the IndyGear Main which are attributed directly to Richard. If you have another more accurate source of measurements that would be helpful for the discussion.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[darthjones]

See?! It's trippy, huh? Steve told us the CS length and width. We know that for sure. But I was looking at the CS travel/ train hat and sort of comparing it to the opening of Raiders hat (outside the idol temple) where both are "new" and the train hat still looks like it has a slightly wider vibe than the Raiders opening scenes hat.

But we know too that the gray CS hat is 2 5/8 at the sides. Steve told us that as well.

And then thinner/ wider face is an issue of course but just tripping over here. Couldn't sleep last night for some reason and did something quiet and crazy like explore brims.

It was reported too that Bernie told either Marc or Steve over the phone that the Raiders hat in his possession (Bernie's) was 2 7/8 x 2 5/8. But we know too that he obviously wasn't measuring the hero Raiders/ SOC because that is accounted for.

Again, just trippin' - amazed still at the fact that 1/8" can make such a difference.

[BendingOak]

Jeff you edited your post about the CS specs.

Like I stated before its not very likely that a European hatter used inches. He most like you CM. only us behind the times American are stuck on inches.

If you look at the hat the brim break isn't sharp. It broke down under the distressing. That and the fact on how the sweatband was seen in. The brim starts to roll. Eating up a tad of the brim.

I for one don't have a exact measurements and at this point I don't think we will.

It could have been 7 cm which is 2 3/4 but I think it was a tad wider.

Now the could be 6.5 cm but that would take use under 2 5/8 . It's closer to 2 1/2.


Like I stated before. Richard hand cut this thing so they were Not consistent and sometimes he never sand them. Even when he did, when you sand a brim its hard to be exact from hat to hat but I'm being real knit picky but isn't that what we do? Around here.

[BendingOak]

One more thing. The best way to get the specs for the hero hat is the seaplane hat. It's unturned and not distressed. It fare to assume they where the same sprcs just different colors.

[Texan Scott]

John,

Do you know what hats survived the original filming? Any used for film kept for the archives? Any info on the screen used fedora?

EDIT: Screenused would not give exact measurements, but someone that is good with proportions could measure the brim by using the ribbon width as a reference point to get the scale right? Just eyeballing it, it looks to be around 2 3/4 front by about 2 1/2 to 2 5/8" somewhere around there.

[BendingOak]

Very good questions Scott. As for screen used hat. I think it would really matter measuring the brim because the hat has shrunk and fir some reason people don't think the brim shrunk but it's part of the same body. If the crown shrunk its a good bet that the brim did as well. Even if it didn't the brim break has broken down so your not going to be exact on where the brim ends and the crown starts.

We know the size of the ribbon so that helps to get proportions of the rest of the hat. That's what I do when replicating hats from photos.


The thing is we need to use some logic here. What would a European hatter use inches instead of CM. answer, he wouldn't. After going that route what would a hatter use in CM to cut a dimensionally cut brim. Then after he cut the brim and needed to sand the edge down to get rid of the dimple you will loose some felt, not a lot but some. Then another thing to consider is the turn.

That's why I think it's best to use the grey travel hat from Raiders to specs out the brown hero hat. This way you don't have the turn getting in the way on throwing off how wide or narrow.

I normally follow Steve's lead from the info he got ( 2 7/8 x 2 5/8 and this is for most common size head and face shapes) but I'm still not 100% on the info because why would Richard us inches instead of CM.

I think it's a great subject and a great thread but I'm sorry to say we will never know for sure

After all that. I think the brim was about 2 7/8 x a hair wider then 2 5/8 and with the turn and the brim softening that why it looks smaller in some cases.

Just my opinion

John

[Texan Scott]

I think that is a good guesstimation, John. At the very least, a person could measure from the bottom of the sweatband if the hat was totally wrecked, could they not? I mean you would need some reference point. The gray solent/clipper is an interesting angle, and a nice round number like 7 cm sounds logical. I would suspect that Ford tried on a few hats that day, and Swales may have cut the brim to the width that best fit him?

Remember the outtake of Ford sitting at the table with the monkey, after filming? At this stage of the game and because the brim was "wrecked" as you would say, the hat set back on his head because the front of the brim was pointing downward and nearly covered the eyes, and would have if he had worn it straight.

[BendingOak]

You could try but the way the HJ sweatband was sewn in (the exact piont of the original brim break at the time the hat was constructed would be lost.

The brim break if done right is not exactly at the bottom of the sweatband.

The SOC hat is exactly like you state. The brim break is lost especially at the front and if worn straight on would cover his eyes.

[Illinois James]

Interesting thoughts on the inches/metric idea. From what I understand, Britain was pretty slow to convert, like the U.S., (which we never fully did so; I know from working on my Fords!), until the government mandated it in the early 80's. Disclaimer: I did look at Wikipedia, but I did learn about this many years ago as an apprentice in the building trades.

Swales could've measured things either way, or both, I guess. Old UK hat sizes are similar to ours, only one 'size' different, right? I wear 7 5/8, but a UK 7 1/2. Am I right about that?

And, what happened to the Raiders seaplane hat, anyway? Does anyone know?

I also tend to obsess over brim dimensions, as Mr. Penman may be able to attest, if he can remember taking an order from me!

[BendingOak]

The reason there are two different hat size used us size and uk sizes is because we use block size as where the uk use actual head size. If you wear a 7 1/2 you block the hat on a 7 5/8. We label the hat differently then the UK.

[darthjones]

One thing that is a little trippy - do a visual comparison of the gray hat from Raiders and the gray hat from Crystal Skull and the CS hat still looks like it has a slightly wider brim side to side maybe.

I should be at work.

[BendingOak]

I'm sure the specs are very slightly bigger on the CS travel then the raiders.

[Illinois James]

Oak, How did the UK come about the ahead size? If I actually measure 24", using pi I'm just over 7 5/8. Did they use SKULL size??

And, unrelated, but on topic, is there a general rule of thumb for sizing a brim based on no other info than hat size, not taking into account the shape of a persons face, or whether or not they're long oval or wide oval? That is, if you knew nothing but size. Ideally, you want all the information you can get, and a picture to help, I know.

[BendingOak]

Oak, How did the UK come about the ahead size? If I actually measure 24", using pi I'm just over 7 5/8. Did they use SKULL size??

Hat size charts are all over the place. That's how it used to be but now the measurements are all over the place. For that answer I can't help because if you look at two different hat size charts they aren't consistent. I just know that's how they started at one piont. One used hats size and the other used hat block size. How it went haywire, is beyond me.

And, unrelated, but on topic, is there a general rule of thumb for sizing a brim based on no other info than hat size, not taking into account the shape of a persons face, or whether or not they're long oval or wide oval? That is, if you knew nothing but size. Ideally, you want all the information you can get, and a picture to help, I know.

Depending on the hat. For the most part you can't really change the specs all that much or the hat stops looking like the hat you are going after.

Let's use the Raiders hat. For the most part if all I have is the head measurement/ size. If they are in the middle range I cut the brim 2 7/8 x 2 5/8.. If they are in the large end of my set of blocks I add a 1/8 to the brim and the crown. If the person is on the small end of my block set I cut the brim down a 1/8 inch and shorten the crown by an 1/8.

Remember, changing the specs anymore (and I feel the hat starts looking like something else with a Raiders crease). The other thing to consider is the ribbon. Unless you can get the ribbon in different sizes and they just don't make them in that kind of vairity, never really did. I can get the Indy ribbon in 3 sizes right now ( that's stock) any other sizes would be a custom order and the amount needed is just too, too much.

I hope that helps.

[darthjones]

I'm sure the specs are very slightly bigger on the CS travel then the raiders.

THAT'S the thing that is tripping me out. We're all here pretty much trained to think that the Raiders brim is 1/8" wider than all the other hats. But we know that the CS travel hat is 2 5/8 at the sides. Your quote here pretty much states that the Raiders Gray hat is less than that at the sides - more like 2 1/2.

And looking at them side by side you can pretty much see it.

[BendingOak]

I think the Raiders hat was wider then the other three movie hats. I don't think it was exact 2 7/8x 2 5/8 but every time I cut them smaller or to the other movie specs they look way off. I think it's more likely that the brim was eaten up by the brim break loosing up so I'm agreeing with your original statement. We are talking hero hats not travel. I also think they had a wider ribbon on the travel hat. Change one thing on a hat and the specs look different. This stuff drives me mad ( pun intended ). I have a hat offering on my site that people call " the Penman" they think the crease crown height is a lot lower then my Raiders offering but it's the exact creased crown height. Why, because when you tweak anything on a hat it's starts playing tricks on the eyes.


Again I hope that makes things clear.

[Illinois James]

Thanks, Oak. It does provide insight. It doesn't seem like it should be complicated, but small differences in brim width does make a big difference in a hat's appearance to my eye.

To me, even from the color aspect, a light colored felt brim trimmed to the same dimensions as a dark hat looks larger, as the hat may overall, with the same dimensions. That old 'slimming' effect of dark colors, maybe?

[BendingOak]

Very true. Now maybe people can understand sometimes I'm a little from time to time.

[darthjones]

For those of you still tuned in, just for fun, how wide is this brim? I'm saying 2 3/8" tops.

[BendingOak]

Are you just eye balling it? I would be so sure about that.

[Illinois James]

It looks narrow from that angle, but if you took the curl out of it, flattened it out and measured it, probably more than that. It takes experience and a good eye to size up things in two dimensions, and I don't have very much of either!

[darthjones]

Yeah, totally just eye-balling it. For sure. But it still makes me do a double take.

By the way - I DID order a Penman today....

[BendingOak]

I'm not saying your wrong. The LC hat is all over the place, specs wise.

[Texan Scott]

It looks around 2 5/8 in front and possibly 2 1/2 on the sides, maybe slightly less. Bash around 4 1/4" in front. It certainly looks like more of a stingy brim... than the Raiders that is.

What specs have you arrived at, Oak?

[BendingOak]

Without seeing the top of the hat I'm not sure how you got 4 1/4. I would say the sides are 2 1/2 inch front and back can't say from that photo.

[WConly]

When one really thinks about the 'hat' in all of these situations, except (for the most part, "CS") changes from scene-to-scene. The continuity of 'Raiders' is not all that great -- regarding 'film-making' techniques. And, "TOD," "LC" were just as bad. When all factors are considered, does it really matter? Pick the scene you like the most and go for it -- if that is 'Indy-to-you,' and more importantly, is 'you.' Then go that route! Just my two cents! W>

[Forrest For the Trees]

For those of you still tuned in, just for fun, how wide is this brim? I'm saying 2 3/8" tops.

That particular hat's brim was severely chopped down for these scenes. I remember reading somewhere that the lighting was challenging, and the wide brim was casting shadows on Ford's face, so the brim was cut. It looks pretty silly when you notice it.