Webley WG references...

[Rook]

I've had a couple people ask how I know the "WG" is the correct pistol
when everything they've read says that it's a MKVI in The Last Crusade.

Well, here's the evidence. You can judge for yourself.

Also Mods, if you want to use any of these images for the site, feel free to
grab them (please don't just link to them. I only have so much free
bandwidth. ).

The Webley WG...



The MKVI...



Here's a comparison of a WG and a Hybrid MKVI barrel and MKV grip frame...



And finally a comparison of the WG and it's VERY little brother, the MKIV.



The WG used in the film has the distinctive birds head grips, a larger
(longer) cylinder and longer frame, most noticeable by the inch of space
in front of the trigger.

The WG birds head grips also are different from those on the Webley
MKIII and other model Webley's by being more curved.

And here's screen cap evidence...









http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol8.jpg

http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol2.jpg

http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol4.jpg

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Russ

[Indiana Bond]

Excellent job Rook!!

As you know I have posted many times with explanations of how the WG is different than the MKVI and how I have watched LC frame by frame to see that the only handgun used was the WG. I don't have the ability to do the frame captures so I'm so glad you did. The frames are the exact ones I would freeze on my DVD player to prove to myself that it was the WG.

I've also contacted the moderators to find out when the correction would be made on the main site regarding the true identity of the LC handgun. They said that they are working on it. I sure hope they use what you have presented here as it definately proves that the LC handgun is the Webley WG!!

Thanks again!!

Bond, Indiana Bond

[starwarsfanatic]

I don't like the beating the dead horse routine, but I posted pictures on another forum that seemed to make the case that there was more than one prop being used. LFL gave the license to write the Indiana Jones Handbook, which says that he carries a Mark VI. In addition to the screen shots which show the absence of a bird-beak grip. The story probably went something like this:

GL/S.Speilberg: Ok, we need a new gun for Harrison Ford to use.
Propmaster: Hey, I have a bunch of Webleys. They were used during the 1930's.
GL/S/Spielberg: Great, we need enough for Harrison and all the stunt people.
Propmaster: Ok, they are going to be similair but not identical. Is that ok?
GL/S.Spielberg: Fine, no one really notices this stuff anyway.
Propmaster: You got it boss.

Can't we all just agree that he used a Webley handgun and NOT argue about the exact make and model. I seem to recall reading on this forum that you can create hybrid Webleys by mixing barrels and grips. If the WG is so rare then I doubt that they would have endangered it by using it in all scenes. Harrison Ford IS Indiana Jones, and he MAY have been carrying a Webley WG, that does not diminish Vic Armstrong and the other stunt people and stunt doubles that stood in for Harrison Ford and carried what ever Webley the Propmaster gave them. Using a Star Wars reference, Darth Vader was played by David Prowse, voiced by James Earl Jones, unmasked as Sabastian Shaw and lightsaber fighting as Bob Anderson. That does not dimish David Prowse, or make Jones THE Darth Vader, they ALL made Darth Vader the Ultimate Villian....Ok....maybe Haydn had a small part.

Please allow the Webley MK VI to maintain its place of honor in the IJ trilogy.

[Rook]

Do you still have the pictures in question? I'd be interested in seeing them.

Just because LFL allowed the printing of one line of text in an Indiana Jones "survival guide" doesn't make it correct. 20th Century Fox allowed the printing of an Aliens Colonial Marine Techinical Manual and the author has stated that he just made up most of the content.

The WG is more rare today. Like most anything, 18 years ago it was less rare. I remember seeing Broomhandle mausers for sale in Shotgun news in the late 1980s-early 90s for like $80, how much are they today?

So accuracy doesn't matter? Then why all the forums dedicated to the style of the trousers, the specific make/model of the bag or the bash of the fedora? We're gearheads! We want accuracy!

Having said that, if you want to own a MKVI and think it's close enough for you, go ahead! If I had the spare cash I'd buy a MKVI in a heartbeat! Especially since replacement parts are soooooo much easier to get than those for the WG.

Thanks!

Russ

[starwarsfanatic]

They are in the forum The "Real" Indy Gun. They are screen captures of the gun from the side where you can see that the bird beak is missing, and there is a very hefty MK VI grip

[Rook]

I'll concede that they may have used a MKVI as holster filler, (or a
rubber stunt gun as same) but near as I can find they only used the WG
in firing sequences or obvious "acting" moments. When IJ hit's Blue Ray
DVDs then we'll really be able to get good screen captures.

Where's the drooling emoticon when you need it?

Again, not trying to make you feel bad about a purchase or anything!
Heck, I own a MKIV and I KNOW that wasn't used in Last Crusade.

Russ

[starwarsfanatic]

I am right with you Russ. I still can't wrap my mind around the "12 parsec" thing in Star Wars. I know what I see in the movies and I know what I have read in the books. You get those screen captures, I would like to see them. There is a Ultimate Indiana Jones Guide coming out in a couple of days, I have a pre-order....as I am sure that you do. Without having actually been there, or gotten info from the propmaster, we HAVE to go with what is seen and read. I heard about the Alien reference that you mentioned from my brother. This is GL we are talking about, I doubt that anyone that receives the coveted LFL seal of approval would write anything that was not backed up with fact. I have corresponded with many Star Wars authors over the years, they are given unprecendented access to the ILM/LFL archives. I agree that the WG is the "action" gun used, but you have to admit that there might be some truth to the MK VI if authorized sources are saying it.

I really don't care about the $$ involved....I passed up a WG for $500 and I don't regret it. The WG is a nice find, but I shoot my guns on a monthly basis. Putting a "screen acurate" gun on my Indy costume is nice, shooting at imaginary Thugees and Nazis at the range is GREAT.

[Rook]

I agree that the WG is the "action" gun used, but you have to admit that there might be some truth to the MK VI if authorized sources are saying it.

Point taken. However, you also have to take the "collective consciousness" into account. 18 years have passed since the film was made. Heck, I have trouble remembering what I had for dinner last night, much less trying to recall what particular handgun was used by a stunt man in a film almost 2 decades ago. But I DO see your point. As I said, we'll just have to wait untill the films hit Blue Ray to get good screen caps. I look forward to it! Finding new info about the films is always fun!

Putting a "screen acurate" gun on my Indy costume is nice, shooting at imaginary Thugees and Nazis at the range is GREAT.

Amen to that! LOL!

Russ

[Hairyloft]

I had always assumed it was the MKVI but I kept looking at screen shots and seeing a longer cylinder which didn't look "right" until I saw a WG which fitted perfectly, suddenly my own MkVI didn't look so good! ah well still a cool gun!

[Michaelson]

Point taken. However, you also have to take the "collective consciousness" into account. 18 years have passed since the film was made. Heck, I have trouble remembering what I had for dinner last night, much less trying to recall what particular handgun was used by a stunt man in a film almost 2 decades ago

That's why I check my texts from the time period the films were made .

The article in the Q&A section from Guns and Ammo of April, 1989, categorically states that it was a Webley Mk VI in Indy's holster for the 'new film'. They even posted a photo in the article of the Webley Mk VI.

So, even though we KNOW for a fact it was a WG in his hand, the info that it was a MkIV was passed to the gun writers of the time from the prop master at Paramount.

Regards! Michaelson

[starwarsfanatic]

Once more the question is posed, what do we consider "canon"? the literary word, or what we can plainly see? I still maintain that because of the numerous screen captures by the members of this forum, that there is a case to be made for a MK VI, a WG or even a MK V WG VI hybrid being used. I think that the most important thing to remember is our love of the movie and not so much on the exact model Webley.

This is the same type of debate that we SW nuts have when we discuss the merits of the asymetrical Vader helmet versus the CAD symetrical one used in ROTS.

[Michaelson]

Well, at least it keeps some of 'us' off the streets!

Regard! Michaelson

[starwarsfanatic]

Until 5/22 and then you're gonna need a David Morgan to herd the fans into the theater.

[Rook]

Once more the question is posed, what do we consider "canon"? the literary word, or what we can plainly see?

From my personal experience in costuming and whatnot, "canon" is defined by what is seen on screen, whether it's a film or TV show. First hand information combined with photos from the set are also canon.

If you go with the "literary word" then it should be the MKVI, as that was written in some of the Indy Novels.

Now unless an alleged item comes with a COA from BAPTY in the UK, or the prop house working on the film, I'd question the validity of any claims that go to the contrary of what we can see on screen with our own eyes.

Also, blurry screen caps are NOT exactly the best sources either. I recently did some screen cap work with the US release of Judge Dredd. Keep in mind that the US DVD release is a HORRIBLE transfer, only slightly sharper than VHS. I was convinced that a pin worn was a deaths head symbol... until somone provided a screen cap from a higher resolution source (Laserdisk maybe?). Turns out the pin was an eagle, but the poor resolution of the DVD, combined with blowing up the image heightened the "skull" imagery. Kind of funny.

Getting back on topic, I doubt (not dismiss) that they made a MKVI hybrid with a birds head grip. The WG's grip has a sharper curve and different shape at the top near the hammer. The grip plates (the L/R plastic "grips") will not work on other birdshead revolvers.

I can post additional images of the different birdshead grip/handle if you're interested in seeing the differences. They're subtle, but different unless you know what to look for.

This is the same type of debate that we SW nuts have when we discuss the merits of the asymetrical Vader helmet versus the CAD symetrical one used in ROTS.

Exactly! But both of those helmets were clearly seen on screen, so they're canon. Whichever style you choose after that is your own personal preference. That's why some Indy fans like the Bapty S&W, some the Stembridge, others the new Service. And then there's a group that likes the Webley. An elegant weapon from a more civilized day. Whoops, wrong movie...

Russ

[starwarsfanatic]

Also, blurry screen caps are NOT exactly the best sources either.

I am right with you. You have MUCH better captures.....actually mine are taken with a camera because, although I did actual screen captures, I could not figure out how to put them in the post. I mentioned in the other forum where they were in the movie, you can see them for yourself and get screen captures. You mentioned INJ on Blu-ray, that will be the best media for a capture. Member WebleyMKV has a picture of a MK V/VI hybrid with the bird beak grip. Here is a picture....I hope. :



I might have the wrong "screen accurate" Webley, but I stand by the "more elegant (and easier to repair) weapon". :razz:

[Rook]

I might have the wrong "screen accurate" Webley, but I stand by the "more elegant (and easier to repair) weapon".

LOL, I couldn't agree more. I wish I could find a replacement cylinder for mine. Well, if wishes were fishes...

That birdshead grip is either the same (or very similar) to those on the .455 MKIII pistols as well.



Russ

[Irish Jones]

Hey Rook,
I was very cool to finally meet you at the prop party last night...you have some perti props!!!!!! And boy...was I impressed with your "MG" I am sooo happy that I am on the list for one of these. I gotta tell ya...I am in equal anticipation of this as I am Indy Four
Best of luck as you plow through these, I know how much work you are putting into them.

~Kevin


www.kevindoyleart.com

[Rook]

Added comparison pics in the first posting.

Russ

[RayROnline]

I've had a couple people ask how I know the "WG" is the correct pistol
when everything they've read says that it's a MKVI in The Last Crusade.

Well, here's the evidence. You can judge for yourself.

Also Mods, if you want to use any of these images for the site, feel free to
grab them (please don't just link to them. I only have so much free
bandwidth. ).

The Webley WG...



The MKVI...




Here's a comparison of a WG and a Hybrid MKVI barrel and MKV grip frame...



And finally a comparison of the WG and it's VERY little brother, the MKIV.



The WG used in the film has the distinctive birds head grips, a larger
(longer) cylinder and longer frame, most noticeable by the inch of space
in front of the trigger.

The WG birds head grips also are different from those on the Webley
MKIII and other model Webley's by being more curved.

And here's screen cap evidence...









http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/crusadepistol4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your Honor, I rest my case.

Russ

Wow, Rook, very interesting and informative! Now, I hate to throw a wrench in it but...here is a shot of my Webley WG Army Model...as stamped right above the chamber. It's a .476 Service Revolver. So, the birds head grip isn't always a dead give-away. But it is gorgeous.





Just thought you would like to see...

[RayROnline]

They are in the forum The "Real" Indy Gun. They are screen captures of the gun from the side where you can see that the bird beak is missing, and there is a very hefty MK VI grip

I own a WG that has the original grip...not bird beak, FYI. It surprised me when I found it, but :



I personally think they're all pretty cool =)

[Indiana Bond]

RayROnline,

Nice Webley you got there. Yes we all knew that the WG also came in a non-birdshead grip style. Rooks point was that Indy's gun could not have been a MKVI as the MKVI never came with a birdshead grip and also it couldn't be one of the other Webleys that do have a birdshead grip in that the WG birdshead has a distinctive shape different than any other Webley birdshead. The WG also has the 1 inch flat area in front of the trigger guard that other Webleys don't have.

Rooks screen grabs show that Indy's gun could only have been the WG as it was the only Webley with that style and shape of birdshead grip and has the 1 inch flat area in front of the trigger guard.

[RayROnline]

RayROnline,

Nice Webley you got there. Yes we all knew that the WG also came in a non-birdshead grip style. Rooks point was that Indy's gun could not have been a MKVI as the MKVI never came with a birdshead grip and also it couldn't be one of the other Webleys that do have a birdshead grip in that the WG birdshead has a distinctive shape different than any other Webley birdshead. The WG also has the 1 inch flat area in front of the trigger guard that other Webleys don't have.

Rooks screen grabs show that Indy's gun could only have been the WG as it was the only Webley with that style and shape of birdshead grip and has the 1 inch flat area in front of the trigger guard.

Thanks, IB. I'm always learning something new here from all the good folks on COW

[trdaggers]

Very useful information. Thank you.

Gailen

[micsteam]

Great piece even with both non-birdshead or birdshead grips.