GUN IDENTIFIED!!! - ToD car chase

[Indiana Bond]

OK, Here it is. Just won this 4 inch Colt Official Police .38 on GunBroker. It will be a couple of weeks before I get it in my possession. Once I do I will try to do those "Indy shooting out the back window" comparison shots!

[RaiderZee]

IB, did you get a date or serial # for your Colt? It has a shaved front sight which, I believe, is indicative of post-1947 models. I think the full semicircular sight was on the 1926-1947 models. Do you have any screen caps of the sight on Indy's gun?

RZ

[Indiana Bond]

The serial number dates my gun to 1950. So, as you said, it is post 1947. Although I have seen that "shaved" style sight on some 1930's OP's also. It seems that "non shaved" "half moon" sights were found mostly on the WWII period guns. Also I have seen the short and the longer (as on my gun) cylinder pin "knob" on these OP's also. Also I have noticed 2 different hammer shapes also on different years.

I spent the entire morning today watching "Temple of Doom" going frame by frame to see if I could pick up on any of these 3 specific areas, front sight, pin knob, or hammer. But I could not see any specifics regarding any of these three areas. Since the movie was filmed in the 80's the gun they used could of had any combination of these 3 different attributes. All depending on what year gun they used. As I have seen different combinations of all the different variations going back as far as the 30's.

I also tried to see if I could find any info online as far as the various sight, knob, and hammer styles used over the years but couldn't find any info. I did find out that many of the WWII period guns were made with plastic grips called Coltwood. This was only done for a few years though.

I picked this gun up for only $250.00 which I felt was a pretty good price. I wanted to get something right away so that I could work on those comparison photos. If we figure out some more details in the future I can always look for another one. I look at purchasing guns as an investment. The price rarely goes down. To me firearms have been a far better investment than the stock market or an IRA!!!

[Indiana Bond]

Here is what I mean. Just this past week on GunBroker I have found 4 variations of the sight and knob combinations:





So it looks like there is no real rhyme or reason to what a specific gun will have depending on it's manufacture date.

If anyone has some insight on this please let us know!!

Thanks!

[Indiana Bond]

Just found this reference on ColtForum:

You got it right ,Butch! That's an old style frame with the narrow sights, and another good "recognition feature" which your excellent side by sides show graphically between the post 1945 Official Police and the pre 1945's, are the checkered cylinder latch and hammer versus the smooth latch and grooved hammer on the post war Official Police.

So it looks like there was a minor frame change done in 1945. This seems to be when they also changed the hammer style. I have also noticed that the post 1945 frame has a single screw below the cylinder on the right side, while the older frames seem to have some sort of double screw there.

Here are a couple of photos showing the different hammers and screws between a pre and post 1945 Colt Official Police. Also shown is the side by side photo that points out the narrow versus wide sights and the cylinder latch difference and a comparison photo showing the latch and hammer differences.

[Indiana Bond]

Just a little bump and heads-up to this thread. I just picked up my Colt Official Police! It is a very nice piece of work and I'm very happy to have it as part of my collection, especially since it only cost me $250.00!

Now, with gun in hand, I have been compairing it to all the various photos and matching up the various angles. I can definately say that the "Willie Jungling Gun" is the Colt Official Police with a 4 inch barrel. Small details I now see in the photos that I missed before are screw positions and a "bump" in the frame above the trigger. These details only match the Colt and not the Smith. I also can really see that it definately has the 4 inch barrel.

I will be working on making the "Indy shooting out the back window" comparison pics soon. I just need to convince my room mate to be the model!!! I will try to take the same angle as the photo below and I will use both my 4 inch Colt and a 5 1/2 inch Smith to see if we can determine the barrel length or any other identifying characteristics.

Stay Tuned!!

[Indiana Bond]

Ok just put a quick comparison together. Will try to do a better one later.

I have made two comparison photos using my 4 inch Colt and a 5 1/2 inch Smith.

Can you tell which is which? Which one looks more like the gun Indy is holding? Top or Bottom?





Top or Bottom?



Same comparison, different lighting. Top or Bottom?

[Dragonlady Jones]

Definitely bottom - in both lighting schemes.

[Indiana Bond]

Just to update this thread a poll was taken to determine what our members thought about the comparison pics. Here are the results of the poll.

First I'd like to thank everyone who took part in this poll. It will be very difficult, if not impossible, to determine which gun Indy is using while shooting out the back window of the car. However, your participation with this poll has helped answer some questions.

My goal with this entire excercise was to see if you would be able to tell the difference between a 4 inch barrel and a 5 inch barrel in a photo with the photo being out of focus and the barrel almost pointing directly towards the camera. That would then indicate weather it was the S&W or Colt - both which were rented for the filming of this scene. When I made the comparison photos I was very surprised how both guns looked almost the same even though one of them has a 4 inch barrel and the other actually has a 5 1/2 inch barrel. To make matters even more perplexing is the fact that the gun with the 5 1/2 inch barrel is actually my S&W model 1917 which is considerably bigger than my Colt Official Police!

That's right, one photo shows my Colt Official Police and the other shows my S&W 1917! You would think that the difference would be obvious but it clearly isn't as we can see by the poll numbers and simply how similar both photos look.

OK, now to reveal the identities!!


Top is the S&W 1917 (Large frame 45 caliber)

Bottom is the Colt Official Police (Medium frame 38 caliber)


So by a 2 to 1 margin most of us did identify correctly one of the possible guns - the Colt Official Police. That's good. What's not so good is that one third of us wrongly identified Indy's gun as a S&W 1917 which is way off from what it could have been. I'm sure if I had had a S&W model 10 with a 5 inch barrel as they had available to them, and had I made the photo comparison with that gun, It would have been even harder to tell any difference.

In conclusion this little exercise has shown us that it will not be possible to positively identify which gun Indy used while shooting out the back window by using a simple photo comparison. The good news is that we can and have positivly identified the guns used in the other 2 scenes filmed in the car:

#1 - Willie Juggling Gun is the Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel.

#2 - Falling Gun is the S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel.

For more info see the original poll thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40375

Please post any comments, questions, or thoughts regarding this little exercise of mine. I would especially like to hear what details in the photo comparison made you choose one gun over the other.

Thanks again for all your help!!

[binkmeisterRick]

It was a good exercise! And yes, it does show how difficult it can be to identify things based solely off screen grabs.

[wu han]

Wow pretty interesting. (Now that I think about it, it totally makes sense that they intended Indy to have the webley in Temple of Doom and that holster wasn't just a coincidence. Especially since Doom is a prequel and Indy was going to lose his gun, visually the webley is more "old timey"-looking than his Raiders guns. )

[Indiana Bond]

You're right; we'll probably have to wait until the BluRay release of TOD, though I'm pretty sure SOMEONE with top-of-the-line software can get better screen grabs off the DVD than I did. Anyone? RaiderZee

Well I just picked up my BluRay set and went right to checking the scenes to confirm everything in this thread. I'm happy to say that we got it right back in 2009! The "fumble" gun is a 4" Colt OP. Freeze frames are clearer in the BluRay and you can definately see the Colt identification factors a lot better. Even the frames of the S&W falling on the running boards is a bit clearer and lends itself to better identification.

These BluRays are wonderfull!! Gotta put away some time to sit back and watch them all again!!

[M1917]

I have no dog in this fight, but I can provide some potentially useful information. The designation "M1917" was used by both Colt and Smith and Wesson to identify guns made for use by the armed forces during WWI. There weren't enough M1911's in stock to arm all the troops going in, so the government approached both handgun manufacturers to fill the gap. The Colt New Service was made in .45 Long Colt, as was the Smith and Wesson 2nd Model Hand Ejector. Both of these commercial guns were blued with five and one half inch barrels, though other lengths were avialable. The goverment purchased as many commercial guns as were available. They needed the capability to fire the rimless .45 ACP cartridge in the revolvers, so they came up with the "half moon clip" which held three rounds by the rims. Two half moon clips loaded each revolver with six shots. The rimless cases would not engage the star ejectors, designed to eject rimmed revolver cases, but would engage the half moon clips. You could fire the rimless cases without the clips in an emergency, but you would have to use a cleaning rod or pencil to eject the cases. Later variants of these revolvers bore the M1917 designation, and had a simpler "brush blued" finish than the finely polished blued commerical guns exhibited. The also bore lanyard loops, "U.S. Government" markings under the ejector rod, and "M1917" and the serial number on the butt behind the lanyard loop.

The Webley Mk VI would have been in use during WWI. It was designed for use with smokeless powder, and was of .455 caliber. As other gun manufacturers were reluctant to put other makers names on their guns, the designation ".455 Eley" was also used. I have a Mk VI that was converted to .45 ACP by shaving the rear of the cylinder, which was a common practice a few years ago. You have to use the half moon clips, just like the M1917's. I also have an unconverted .455 cylinder I can put into the revolver, so I can fire .455 Webley ammo through it.

The Webley Green (or Webley Government as it is sometimes called) was designed in the 1870's for use with black powder. You needed more powder for a powerful cartridge, which is why the cylinder is longer on the WG than the Mk VI. The WG was replaced by the later variants of the Webley, the last being the Mk VI. The WG was obsolete by the time WWI began. As pretty as the WG is, it makes no sense in the IJ canon. As Indy was a Belgian officer in WWI (Young IJ Chronicles) he would have been familiar with all three revolvers, and perhaps the 11mm French Ordnance Revolver, made famous by Brendan Frasier in The Mummy. But likely as not, Indy would have never handled or had access to the WG.

As a WWI vet, Indy could have brought any of these guns home from the war, as many doughboys did. They were sold cheaply as surplus when replaced by more modern weapons. Leather gear was also cheap an readily available, as evidenced the the Brit Webley holtser Indy uses. The flap holster better protected the revolver from the trials of trench warfare. And I have many times carried a short barreled handgun in a longer holster.

Just my two cents' worth...
R/S
Fritz

[Indiana Bond]

Fritz,

Oh yes what makes sense or seems logical never applies in the world of Movie Magic!!

[Michaelson]

Yep. If anyone has ever carried a large frame Webley in the field for any period of time, they're not fun. It's another reason why the 'Sam Brown' type belt rig was created....to support the weight of these big Colts, Smiths, and Webley's with one shoulder while working in the field.

Why Indy would have one of these monsters in his holster clear up into the 50's when it was already proven to him over and over again during his time during WW2 that there were more powerful and lighterweight choices is beyond me....but as has been stated over and over again....it just LOOKED neat!

So be it.

I have owned a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag for years, and absolutely LOVE the revolver. When I leave the house, I usually have my snub nose .357 with me. Why? It's lighter, and packs the punch required.....and me being older, carrying a heavy gun around just doesn't appeal to me like it used to when I was younger and more limber.

Ah well.

Regard! Michaelson

[micsteam]

Don't forget S&W and Colt made revolvers in both .455 Eley and .45 ACP w/moon clips for both the British and Canadian Military under lend lease. I own a British service issue .45 S&W HE that saw action on the Western Front in 1915. Sorry, and I'm not biased, but it's a S&W HE through out Raiders and TOD (obviously not when he's using High Power 9mm in certain scenes). I think Spielberg liked the Webley for LC because at the time he was working on the restoration of Lawrence of Arabia with David Lean. What seems to be the case is that Indy loses his gun and other equipment on his adventures and replaces them when he returns home for is next adventure and seems partial to large caliber revolvers. No ??

[Michaelson]

Writer Rob McGreagor put the Webley in Indy's Holster, not Spielberg.

Regards! Michaelson

[M1917]

I like the feel of my S&W Model 19, but a full size combat magnum isn't always appropriate for mixed company. My Ruger LCR fills the gap quite nicely.

[Trebor]

I'll add that I didn't realize how big the S&W 1917 was until I got mine. I can see why Indy would chop the barrel to 4". It would help handling immensely. That big frame makes the Colt OP seem positively svelte by comparision.

[whipwarrior]

Writer Rob McGreagor put the Webley in Indy's Holster, not Spielberg.

See, I've always been unclear about that, because Rob didn't start writing the LC novelization until filming was already underway, and the prop department would have selected Indy's sidearm prior to that, unless the original screenplay specifically cited the Webley. Of course we all know that every IJ novel since then has Indy carrying the MK-VI which, by virtue of continuity, found its way back to the screen in KOTCS.

[Indiana Bond]

Of course we all know that every IJ novel since then has Indy carrying the MK-VI which, by virtue of continuity, found its way back to the screen in KOTCS.

The Webley MK-VI is NOT used in KOTCS. Where did you get that idea? Indy uses the WG in KOTCS also.

There is another explanation about the use of the Webley WG presented by Brandon Aliger earlier in this thread. His recolection would explain better how they came up with the idea of using the Webley WG in the first place. It also proves that the KOTCS Webley was also the WG and not the MK-VI. Here is Brandon's quote below:

Now moving on to Temple. Indy was intended to carry the Webley Green in TOD, as evidenced by the use of the Webley holster, even though we never see it in the film. I do not know why the change was made from the S&W in the first film, but this is why the Webley Green was used in Last Crusade (interesting note: we provided photos of the original Webley Green from LC to the production of Crystal Skull when they were trying to match the gun).

The UK prop department sent photos and information on several different guns to Stembridge Gun Rentals, so that they could match the guns from the footage already shot. Amongst these were photos of a Webley .455/476 WG Army Model (marked IJ personal gun), ....

Stembridge rented guns to the production of TOD that were a close match to the photos sent from the UK. These guns included a Webley 455 WG Army Model, a Colt 38 cal OP revolver w/ 4" barrel, and a S&W 38 cal w/ 5" barrel and swivel.

You can guess what happened next. When the guns showed up on set, Ford was not given the Webley, but one of the other guns that had been rented for the film.

Regards,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London
http://www.propstore.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So as we can see the Webley WG was actually supposed to appear in TOD but, for whatever reason, never did. They must have really wanted to use that particular handgun so it eventually made it's appearance in LC.

[Michaelson]

Writer Rob McGreagor put the Webley in Indy's Holster, not Spielberg.

See, I've always been unclear about that, because Rob didn't start writing the LC novelization until filming was already underway, and the prop department would have selected Indy's sidearm prior to that, unless the original screenplay specifically cited the Webley. Of course we all know that every IJ novel since then has Indy carrying the MK-VI which, by virtue of continuity, found its way back to the screen in KOTCS.

That's what the man told me when he was asking me to look up period correct weapons for his first Pirate book and I asked him WHY the Webley? He said he saw one in a gun shop, loved it, and suggested it to Lucas for use in LC....then included it in the novelization.

I guess they had to come up with something new as Indy's Smith had technically been dropped out the door of the car by Willy in TofD and never recovered, so the Webley is what got picked.

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bond]

So yes, as has been already noted earier in this thread, there are conflicting stories regarding the Webley WG. Personnaly I would have to give more credence to Brandon's account as he has actually seen the records indicating that a Webley WG was rented for use in TOD. This also is suppoprted by the use of a Webley holster in TOD.

So technically speaking if Indy was supposed to have used the Webley WG in TOD but "lost" it when it was dropped out of the car, it would make sense that later in the timeline for ROTLA he would have a different handgun - the S&W. Which means that for LC he should still have had the S&W or maybe something else. I'm sure Indy would have owned many different handguns.

What I think may have actually happened was that the Webley WG (being an older style gun) was supposed to have been used and seen in TOD as it was earlier in the timeline and also scripted to be lost. Due to a crew mistake the Webley was not used. Spielberg and others may have really liked the Webley and still wanted to use it in an Indy film. So they decided to use it later in LC instead with no regards to the timeline or just as "another one of Indy's many handguns" that he most likely would have owned. It is evident that they really liked the Webley WG as they decided to use it again in KOTCS.

Just my own theory!!

[whipwarrior]

Bond, I know the Webleys in LC and CS are WG's, but I simply refer to them as MK-VI because that's technically what they are. And, according to the Internet Movie Firearms Database, the MK-VI does make a few appearances: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones ... bley_Mk_VI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Indiana Bond]

Bond, I know the Webleys in LC and CS are WG's, but I simply refer to them as MK-VI because that's technically what they are. And, according to the Internet Movie Firearms Database, the MK-VI does make a few appearances: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones ... bley_Mk_VI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First of all the Webley WG is not "technically" A MK-VI. It came out in the late 1800's before the MK-VI was developed. It is the predecessor to the MK-VI

Second of all the info in the Internet Movie Firearms Database can be put there by anybody. It was me that contributed much of the info found there for all 4 Indy movies. Other people constantly go on that site and add things which they may feel is correct. That info about the MK-VI was just recently added to that site and I do not believe it is correct. Again from the info provided to us by Brandon who works for the prop house that provided the firearms for all 4 movies and who has access to the records, there was never a mention of a MK-VI rented for the films. Only the Webley WG.

I just picked up the blu rays and I will revisit LC to take a new look at those scenes that were posted on IMFD. From the screen shots that were posted there it doesn't conclusively show it to be a MK-VI. A matter of fact the top (castle) and bottom (biplane) are both the Webley WG and not the MK-VI. It is easy to identify as the WG has a flat area in front of the trigger gaurd that is almost an inch long. The MK-VI does not. Please enlarge those pictures and look for your self. You can clearly see the flat area in front of the trigger gaurd in both pics. The middle pic is too dark to see much of anything.

Many of us here at COW have done extensive research into all of this over the years and it has pretty much conclusively been agreed that only the Webley WG was used and never a MK-VI.

I Hope that clears things up for you!

[whipwarrior]

Well, at least we can agree that it's a Webley!

[Indiana Bond]

Yep! That it is my friend. That it is!!