BK Raiders vs. Nowak Raiders

[Toldog07]

From what I understand, the BK is a copy of the Nowak raiders jacket, which is a copy of an original, but has anyone compared the Nowak to the BK? Are they identical or does one have the edge of being a better screen accurate jacket?

[Gorak]

This is all based on personal opinion but I have had both and I had the Nowak in three different variant skins and I feel that BK wins by virtue of using correct type of skins, hardware and lining. The Nowaks I handled, even with such cool leather and great shape (pattern) would never either sit correctly, move correctly, or feel right. Not a comment on their quality, which was amazing, but on them not being the top of the pyramid of Raiders jackets specifically. Based on me having owned the few mentioned jackets, I personally feel that it would be Kelso, Todd`s, then Nowaks when narrowing it all down to who makes the coolest Raiders of the Lost Ark (specifically!) jacket.

[Toldog07]

Interesting! How much does Todd's go for?

[trdaggers]

A heck of a lot less then the other two.

Gailen

[ShanghaiJack]

Well said, Gailen, well said.

[Toldog07]

Haha well said

[Tibor]

Tony's are brilliant, but he was biased towards heavier substantial leathers. The BK matches the pattern with a virtually identical leather to those used in Raiders (as best as can be determined). I love them both for different reasons. Todd's I think are great patterns, but the sleeves are a bit short for me. The leather is close though to my tastes, not in the same league as BK.

[Toldog07]

so what I'm getting from this, the BK is the way to go. It seems like it's worth the extra money. I noticed they are sold on their site and also on Ebay...any preference?

[Tibor]

No preference... I went through the site. By the way, they make two versions; the Hawaii jacket from the temple and the Main Hero, from the Raven Bar, etc. They can describe the slight differences for you.

[fifthchamber]

Or......You could wait a small while and check out what Steele and Jones come up with when their jackets start making it out to the public....

Cheaper by a long shot, and depending on what they can work out long term, looking very good from all that's out so far...

I know you were asking only about the Nowak and the Kelso...So it's besides the point somewhat, but they do look comparable to those two..So..Might be worth hearing at this juncture...

[Baldwyn]

This is all based on personal opinion but I have had both and I had the Nowak in three different variant skins and I feel that BK wins by virtue of using correct type of skins, hardware and lining. The Nowaks I handled, even with such cool leather and great shape (pattern) would never either sit correctly, move correctly, or feel right. Not a comment on their quality, which was amazing, but on them not being the top of the pyramid of Raiders jackets specifically. Based on me having owned the few mentioned jackets, I personally feel that it would be Kelso, Todd`s, then Nowaks when narrowing it all down to who makes the coolest Raiders of the Lost Ark (specifically!) jacket.

Argh, I'm less concerned about hardware, skin, and lining! But my complaint about my Nowak is that it doesn't sit correctly. I worried about buying a Kelso and finding it's a copy of the Nowak so it, too, wouldn't sit right (I emailed BK on this issue, and basically got a shrug), so I gave up.

[trdaggers]

You save a few bucks by buying from the site rather then E-bay.

Gailen

[Rikimaru]

What is there to compare? Other than Kelso sourcing a nice lamb leather, they have done nothing other than rip-off the work that someone else has done.

[trdaggers]

.....and a wonderful job they did doing it.

Gailen

[Texan Scott]

There have been some really good TN copeis too, like S. Jack's Raiders jacket. Seems like Raider S. had a couple of really good Raiders likenesses from TN as well. The thinness and pliability of lambskin makes a difference, as lamb is a really good "screen" leather. BK just took it a step further by trying to source a very close likeness of the same skin. The jacket is also very well put together.

[trdaggers]

How do you rip off a copy of a copy????

Gailen

[BendingOak]

It's funny how it's NOT ok to recast a prop but it's ok to copy a jacket without permission.

[Dalexs]

So here's a dumb question.... who DID make the original jacket???

[Michaelson]

Western Costume. That was easy.

[Texan Scott]

Well, in a way, who would want credit for such a quirky built jacket?

[Tennessee Smith]

Peter... Deborah.... Cooper...


... to name a few

[BendingOak]

So here's a dumb question.... who DID make the original jacket???





Then why do so many people here go up in arms when sone recast a prop. Personally with so many stories being told by people who wasn't there when they were made I find it hard to beleive the stories and tend to beleive the ones there.

[Gorak]

Baldwyn.....the difference, even though it is the same pattern, is that Bill Kelso uses the same pattern Nowak measurements that Mr. Nowak took off of an actual jacket and, as has been said, used a more accurate looking leather, hardware and lining. This, to me, takes that awesome pattern and allows the jacket to sit correctly on ones body and "act" like a Raiders jacket. As was said, Mr. Nowak experimented or used many different types of leather most being too thick, stiff, or heavy to give you an accurate Raiders appearance even though the pattern was right. Thus Todd`s being really close and more so with Steel&Jones and their new creation.

[ShanghaiJack]

For the most part I agree with Gorak in regard to the BK vs. the TN, however, I do think that there are some TN jackets out there that do fit the bill. Mine sit's right, for a Raiders jacket anyway , and moves right, so even within the same hides that Tony used there may be enough difference in weight to change that factor. I agree in regard to the hardware and the lining. I much prefer BK's linings to the TNs.

Of course, since Riley is not currently making Raiders jackets –that I am aware of– the point is moot unless one can be found in the right size in the Bazaar. If you are looking for the most screen accurate jacket out there and price is no object it seems that the BK is the way to go. If price is an object and you can wait a while you might want to check out Steele and Jones, and if price is an object and you can't wait give Todd a call and he'll hook you up.

Personally, I think I will buy a Steele and Jones jacket just because I love that they are made by fellow gearheads. That is too awesome! I'd love to get a BK too, but with two growing boys that will not be in the budget for some time.

[trdaggers]

I own most of these jackets and I must say for the money you just can't beat a Todds.


Gailen

[Texan Scott]

There is a combination of things happening with the screen repro jacket that causes the effect. The first is that the shoulder seams are offset to the back and not centered on the shoulder. This causes vertical pleating of the leather material because the correct break is not on the shoulder seam but on the edge of the shoulder. Add to it the extra length of the collar and collarstand, causing the jacket to be blousy in front. Thin leather works better to produce the look. Add to it, the off the shoulders aspect and the rotation of the sleeves in relation to the yoke seams. All of these seeming "errors" in design and construction caused the 'perfect storm' more or less that we see on film. All you can rationalize is that maybe someone hurredly put the jacket together and did not have exact measurments etc. That leads back to the main page, in that Peter took a James Dean jacket and said he would add the action pleats to it, map pockets, etc. Obviously if you eyeball a person you want to fit with a jacket, rather than take time to measure, etc., the end result might be just what we have? Speculation.

The older reproduction jackets, like the Raiders, RoLA and others from other companies had a more "correct" design in that the collars were not oversized and fit closer to the neck and the shoulder seams were centered on the top of the shoulders as a jacket should. The arm/sleeve seams fit on the shoulders as any good fitting jacket should, but you just dont get the blousy effect of the extra material nor the vertical pleating, nor the sleeve/shoulder seams fitting off the shoulders, nor the collar hanging off the back of the neck. They were not necessarily "wrong" with what they did, it is just that they built a "correct" modern day jacket jacket and were not historically accurate to the eccentricities of this particular jacket, the "wonky" (as you guys say) prop that we saw in film.

Some will like it and some won't. But if you don't then the RoLA pattern, USW, Todd's, Mags, are fine jackets, etc. They lean more to the corrected, modern pattern.

The other side to this is if you set about to acquire a historically accurate A-2, according to the manufacturer's own style, ie pocket flaps, etc., points on the collars, etc., then you would not want any other thing but as close as possible to the very one they produced, based on your own style and tastes. Such has been our quest in the jacket forum, and some have striven to know the jacket in that regard.

All said, the seeming 'comedy of errors' produced the look. Thinner leather works in conjunction with these pattern quirks to cause it. They are partners in crime.

[Indiego Jones]

Maybe I can give some info about pattern making AND (not less important) correct type of leather.
As you may know, I personally developed our jacket patterns. (took me almost 4 years to get it right )
So, I managed to achieve this look:
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http://s1357.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... d.jpg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ribbyness aside, the leather thickness it's very important. But, it's not as thin as you may think.
The thickness should be on the 0.7-0.8 mm approx. Even 1 mm could work too. It's the pliability of the leather what plays a fundamental role in the look.
And the leather weight, because it can be thick, but still lighweight.

The pattern it's really tricky.
In the making process, one of the possible deductions that occurred to me is that, when assembling the original jacket, corrections were made on the way. The pattern maker was on "I'm making it up as I go" mode.
For example, I think, the original yoke was larger. In fact, the whole back was larger. But, for some reason (maybe the bag should be reachable, or the holster...), they forced everything up. By an inch or even slightly more.
The front panels are completely out of balance, in relation to the yoke and collar opening.
And, due to the back "raising", the un-altered front lenght it's too long.
The "long" collar it's another correction, but I can't figured out why. Maybe, the off shoulders effect was making the collar look too short in the front, therefore, they lengthened.

BTW: I don't know for sure WHO made the original patterns, but I don't think it was Cooper.
Cooper made always perfect jacket patterns, and this is far from perfect.

All this are personal deductions. The result of an obsessive persuit. THIS ARE NOT FACTS.
(I want to clarify this because I don't want to start any madness discussion or getting this topic deleted)

Now some facts:
I didn't rip-off others people work. I try to replicate what I see on the movie.
Did I studied other Indy jackets? Yes.
The same way someone studied an original jacket.

Regards.-

[erikgunnlugson]

Indiego Jones.
I love your raiders jacket that you have put togeather here but I just want to ask a question.
Has anyone ever tried to get the (for lack of a better term) popeye effect on the sleeves? The puffiness and the wrinkles that seem (to me) to be a major part of the raiders jacket.
Could this not be achived by having the length of the leather of the arms to be too long...say 4 or 5 inches and then scrunched up and then attached to the lining at the wrist?
I have always noticed this in the pictures of the raiders jacket and while watching the film but never see it on reproductions.
Since they were trying for a distressed looking jacket and having the wrinkles of a 5 to 10 year old jacket just couldn't be done with a pocket knife and wire brush.
Just my 2 cents, however I dont know much about these things.

E.

[Indiego Jones]

Indiego Jones.
I love your raiders jacket that you have put togeather here but I just want to ask a question.
Has anyone ever tried to get the (for lack of a better term) popeye effect on the sleeves? The puffiness and the wrinkles that seem (to me) to be a major part of the raiders jacket.
Could this not be achived by having the length of the leather of the arms to be too long...say 4 or 5 inches and then scrunched up and then attached to the lining at the wrist?
I have always noticed this in the pictures of the raiders jacket and while watching the film but never see it on reproductions.
Since they were trying for a distressed looking jacket and having the wrinkles of a 5 to 10 year old jacket just couldn't be done with a pocket knife and wire brush.
Just my 2 cents, however I dont know much about these things.

E.

If I understand correctly, you mean by puffiness the "loose" part, in the upper sleeve, in the bicep area ¿?
And the wrinkles passing the elbow.

That effect is the result of the sleeve pattern (tailor sleeve) and slim bicep perimeter of the wearer.
The wrinkles results of the conjunction of: sleeve pattern + correct leather + cotton lining.

Not the way to go by making the sleeves 4 or 5 inches longer.

Regards.-

[erikgunnlugson]

Alrighty, thanks for the heads up.

[BendingOak]

I wasn't suggesting that some one is steeling from anyone but by copying a pattern directly is just like re-casting. I was curios why there is always heat when it comes to props and not the gear IE: jacket.

Have I looked at others hats, yes. Have I taken them apart and made molds, no. There is a difference.

[Indiego Jones]

I wasn't suggesting that some one is steeling from anyone but by copying a pattern directly is just like re-casting. I was curios why there is always heat when it comes to props and not the gear IE: jacket.

Have I looked at others hats, yes. Have I taken them apart and made molds, no. There is a difference.

I agree with you in every single word.

My clarification was not directed at anyone in particular.
Just to make it clear I didn't take apart any TNO Raiders jacket to make our patterns. But examined in detail.

[Toldog07]

Does anyone know the differences between the two BK jackets? I didn't see anywhere on their website that there were choices...

[trdaggers]

You have to mail in for a secret code which allow you access.

Gailen

[BendingOak]

I wasn't suggesting that some one is steeling from anyone but by copying a pattern directly is just like re-casting. I was curios why there is always heat when it comes to props and not the gear IE: jacket.

Have I looked at others hats, yes. Have I taken them apart and made molds, no. There is a difference.

I agree with you in every single word.

My clarification was not directed at anyone in particular.
Just to make it clear I didn't take apart any TNO Raiders jacket to make our patterns. But examined in detail.

I know that and mine wasn't directed at you. Just a thought. I am a little confused why one is looked down apon but the other isn't.

If I tagged you I'm sorry. I really never thought you would do anything like that. I for one have been following your jacket project.

[Rikimaru]

Thanks John, at least you can see where I'm coming from. If BK had utilized the same leathers and made their own pattern, it wouldn't be such an issue. But taking apart one of Tony's HF sized jackets and using that as their basis has always struck a wrong cord with me. You can make a great jacket without copying somebody else's design stitch by stitch, like Todds for example.

[BendingOak]

Very true and my piont. the one Indiego jones is offering is amazing looking and didn't cross that line.


There is a Hugh outcry for one of our own prop makes get re-cast but never is there a out cry about doing the same thing for a gear item. Support the ones who did there own homework.

[Texan Scott]

Not to defend any vendor, but I'm not comfortable with customers deciding which method(s) to copy a jacket does or does not cross the line...? Er...I looked but I didn't cheat off his paper? I smoked but I didn't inhale..? The point is, others have copied the jacket and they have used various ways to do it, mostly tape measure. It should be noted that TN would not have been allowed to take the Raiders jacket apart. He couldn't. If you buy someone's jacket, do you not buy full use of the jacket, as your personal property to do with as you please? Would a jacket maker be allowed to come back on you because you decided to distress it more than he thought you should? If you hitched it to a pair or horses like Levis and ripped it apart, then it is still your jacket, is it not? If you want to get legalistic, then Peter is the only maker that should have been allowed to view, measure and copy his own jacket...? Articles of clothing have traditionally been fair game, and not intellectual property.

[Indiego Jones]

John, thank you for your replies. We're on the same page.

It's about respect for someone else work.
The Nowak Raiders jacket replica it's not exactly 100% identical to the original jacket.
I mean, the fact that Nowak couldn't dissect the Raiders jacket, he had to fill the gaps concerning the internal details of construction he couldn't see. So, there's his work.

[BendingOak]

John, thank you for your replies. We're on the same page.

It's about respect for someone else work.
The Nowak Raiders jacket replica it's not exactly 100% identical to the original jacket.
I mean, the fact that Nowak couldn't dissect the Raiders jacket, he had to fill the gaps concerning the internal details of construction he couldn't see. So, there's his work.

Yes indeed. We are on the same page.


Scott if what you say is true. Then I can buy a idol lets say magnoli for example and recast that and no one should call foul but they do. How come prop makers get the backing but the gear makers don't. I'm not saying someone can't take apart a jacket to make a pattern. Then sell their own. I'm saying why is it that you and others think its ok to do that but it's not ok to recast props????

Please explain the difference. I like to know.

[Zuiun]

Maybe it's semantics, but it could come down to the fact that you simply *can't* make a mold of an article of clothing.

I could, say, take a headpiece and create a virtually EXACT duplicate of that. Zero creative effort at all, and the only technical craftsmanship required is that necessary to create a mold and cast duplicates from it. I don't need to have an ounce of knowledge of the sculpting process that went into creating that headpiece. I wouldn't even need to have ANY creative skills whatsoever.

But even if I rip apart a jacket and use the pieces as a template, there is still an artistry to creating a functional, wearable article of clothing. And if I want to sell different sizes? I have to know how to adapt what I've learned. There is more effort involved than merely creating molds. Bottom line: I would still not only have to know how to make a jacket, but actually MAKE the jacket. And in doing so, there's simply no way that it wouldn't take on some characteristics of my style, even if unintentionally.

Now, having said that, there's certainly some fuzzy ethics involved in ripping apart someone else's work in order to create patterns, but the extra knowledge and effort required beyond that step could be why there really isn't much backlash compared to "recasting."

[Texan Scott]

Articles of clothing have traditionally been fair game, and not intellectual property. And I get why people might be upset at ripping apart a TN. There is a certain respect for him and his work since he has passed. Even TN has said himself, it is just a jacket. So is it, or is it not? TN made the 4th jacket and he was not prepared to build shrines to it...it was just a cowhide jacket to him. Regardless, the most faithful reproduction, be it prop or gear is a close likeness to the original. It is still a copy of the original. So...someone took the time to copy an original, screen used prop or article of clothing, then sell them for profit, and the original makers that supplied them to film or LFL, do not come after them...then how much weight then are you going to hold over the other guy's head?

What have jacket makers done to A-2's in order to make them as close to the originals as possible? Not sure. Don't really care until it arrives and you open the package. Then it is important...to you.

[BendingOak]

This has nothing to do with Tony's death. Don't make it about that.

None of these people are making the jacket themselves. In this case a Nowak jacket was taken apart for the sake of a exact pattern then turning it over to jacket makers to fullfill orders. There is no skill by this person. They aren't making any part of this jacket.


That is the same as taking and idol and having a mold made and sending it of to produce the idols from the mold.


Scott you train of thought on this one is flawed.

[Kt Templar]

Well none of the makers I am aware of took apart a Nowak to make their jacket. Remember that the received knowledge is that Nowak also had a jacket to copy. So that Nowak is also a 'recast' if there is such a thing is possible with jackets.

When you are talking about hard objects like a grail or a idol, the recast is literally taking a mould of the object and then casting duplicates. You are not sculpting anything. That is the difference.

With jacket makers even if you have a jacket in front of you you are still creating all the pattern pieces using your experience and skills because there are parts inside the jacket that you cannot see. What does happen is that the Nowak is not a perfect Raiders jacket and each person who has been influenced by it has refined the details. Adjusted the pocket flap, adjusted the collar tips, adjusted the straps, found ever more accurate leather, found correct hardware etc, etc.

[Texan Scott]

Let's say the worst happened and someone ordered a 1:1 Raiders TN. Lets say it was a size 40. It gets in the hands of a new jacket maker with a few ideas and refinements, ie how can I build a better mousetrap? So he takes the jacket apart and makes templates on a size 40 lets say. Short body but lonjg arms, technically not a true size 40R. If any other size is ordered, then there has to be adjustments made and sized to fit, so that the sleeves are taken in and the yoke and other panels are 1" wider, etc. If anything is changed at all, then the new jacket maker has crossed from being a copier to doing his own thing.

All I am saying is if the co.'s and individuals and even LFL do not come after others who make and sell reproduction Headpieces, idols, jackets and the like...those that produced the originals for film and have every right...and that measure of grace is extended to them, then how do we suddenly get so legalistic with others..? I mean, it looks like people are making it personal? So lets take it a step further. Some members apparently think BK took a TN and disassembled it and used the basic pattern to make Raiders jackets? Is that really the issue? Did they do that? I don't know?

[Indiego Jones]

We shouldn't assume that any vendor has disassembled a jacket for copying purposes.
For the good of this discussion.

The better way to replicate a jacket it's take it apart, and the easiest way too.
Jacket makers knows that.

Progressions and regressions should be exact copies from the original templates, but in a different sizes.

[Rikimaru]

This has nothing to do with Tony's death. Don't make it about that.

None of these people are making the jacket themselves. In this case a Nowak jacket was taken apart for the sake of a exact pattern then turning it over to jacket makers to fullfill orders. There is no skill by this person. They aren't making any part of this jacket.

Scott you train of thought on this one is flawed.

Well none of the makers I am aware of took apart a Nowak to make their jacket. Remember that the received knowledge is that Nowak also had a jacket to copy. So that Nowak is also a 'recast' if there is such a thing is possible with jackets.

BK and how do you think after all these years of sub-par Wested Raider jackets, the Hero pattern just appeared?

I mean, it looks like people are making it personal? So lets take it a step further. Some members apparently think BK took a TN and disassembled it and used the basic pattern to make Raiders jackets? Is that really the issue? Did they do that? I don't know?

Who's making it personal? The op wanted to know which of the two was better. The BK is a Nowak under a different label. And as for them taking apart a jacket to make theirs... Yes. If you go over to the other forum, you will see a member Platon asking for people to send their Nowak jacket in to be used for patterning purposes. In return, they will receive a BK based off the pattern that was copied from the Nowak. They are doing the same thing for TOD and LC.

[Texan Scott]

The better way to replicate a jacket it's take it apart, and the easiest way too.
Jacket makers knows that.

Ok? Then what is the issue then?

Just to make it clear I didn't take apart any TNO Raiders jacket to make our patterns. But examined in detail.

It's about respect for someone else work.

You seem to be suggesting in an earlier post above that because you did not take a TN apart, then you have done it the right way, and also some are implying that anyone who does is guilty, shifty, underhanded? Which is it? Is it ok to take a jacket apart or not?

[Indiego Jones]

The better way to replicate a jacket it's take it apart, and the easiest way too.
Jacket makers knows that.

Ok? Then what is the issue then?

The way I see it, is not politically or ethically correct.
In the inside of a jacket are "construction solutions", that every pattern maker must do.
For example: the way the patch pockets and the side entry are built. Folds, seams, measurements, linings, etc. All this is hard work, calculations, and many tests.

Just to make it clear I didn't take apart any TNO Raiders jacket to make our patterns. But examined in detail.

It's about respect for someone else work.

You seem to be suggesting in an earlier post above that because you did not take a TN apart, then you have done it the right way, and also some are implying that anyone who does is guilty, shifty, underhanded? Which is it? Is it ok to take a jacket apart or not?

IMO, it isn't ok to take apart a jacket.
Certainly I wouldn't like someone to disassemble one of our jackets.

My work on the development stage was not different from, let's say, watching the movie. My job was to observe, measure, calculate.
As well as taking pattern making lessons.

I didn't rip any jacket or work, made by other person. That would have saved me time and money.

[trdaggers]

Behind closed doors does anyone really know what people do or don't do? Once someone owns something they can do what they want, be it ethical or not.

Gailen