paying for whips

[stoneman]

There have been a few threads regarding whips that take forever to complete in the past little while, and it's got me curious. How come folks are willing to send off cash to someone for something that doesn't yet exist?

I've purchased a few whips, and sold a few as well. I've never asked for payment before sending a picture of the finished product, and I've never sent payment without seeing a finished product. I can understand asking for a small deposit (materials for whips can be pricey), but to pay for something in full before it is anything more than an idea can be risky, as some here have unfortunately learned first hand. I'm a bit of a knife collector as well, and the same goes for buying a custom knife. You'd be hard pressed to find a collector willing to part with their cash before the knife is finished, after all sometimes these waiting lists are years long.


Imagine you were paid for a full years work in January, wouldn't it be so much easier to want to call in sick, or take off early knowing you've already got the cash? Much easier than if you needed to put in a set amount of hours to ensure your wages were paid at the end of the week. Payment for work is probably the largest incentive for you to actually do the work. So take away that incentive, and it's super easy to become relaxed about getting things done. In the old cartoons, you never saw someone give a mule a carrot before the work, it was always held in front of his nose to give him something to work for.


I'm not trying to knock makers who ask for payment up front, but as the consumer you hold all the power. It's your choice whether you choose to keep that power, or give it, and your money away to someone who most likely you will never ever see in person. It is a lot of trust to put in a person/company that is technically a stranger.


So where do you stand? Are you willing to pay upfront for something not yet made, or would you like to be able to see what you're buying before sending out your cash?

[louiefoxx]

The problem with whips is that they are LABOR INTENSIVE to make. Because of that many makers don't have a lot of stock kicking around. Also what people want is so varied I can't imagine everyone having one of every possible combination in stock. You'd spend a year or so not selling anything just to build up stock in every combination.

For example there are 5 or 6 standard kangaroo colors and if you only have whips in even number lengths from 4-12 that's 25-30 whips you'd have to have in stock...and that's just in one plait count. So then you multiply that by 3 (for 8 - 12 - 16 plait counts) and you'd need to have 75-90 bullwhips made and in stock to offer a "full catalog"...then if you make snake whips, signal whips or stock whips you'll have to have those in stock.

Many makers have whips in stock as well made to order whips. However when you are getting a whip that's in stock you are limited to what they have...but you are getting it right away and can see it before you buy. Joe Strain, Paul Nolan, Steve Huntress and myself all offer whips that are IN STOCK when we have them.

Also it's hard to place an online order to be paid later. In general ecommerce isn't designed to hold credit card number for use later. For example you can't do that with paypal and with the company I use to process credit cards I can only have my CC number transmitted over their system...well I can do it over my own, but the if my site got hacked I'd be 100% liable for all badness, where if I use theirs I'm not liable for any because my website/hosting never sees any CC info.

If you order a "made to order" whip off my website it charges you right away, that's just the way it is. However if you call me over the phone I have the ability to not charge you until I start work on your project. I know what you are thinking, "why can't someone email you with a request and once it's finished submit payment". That's very good question and the reason I charge in full when work begins is that I have prepay the money in materials to make the bullwhip and spend time making it. By charging when work begins the buyer can't back out because they changed their mind after I've spent hundreds of dollars in material and days of labor on their project. Also it prevents people from placing orders that never intend to follow through with them (people who like the idea of buying a nice bullwhip, but when it comes to paying they really don't want it that bad).

Now I know what you are thinking, "if someone backs out of an order it gives you a whip that's IN STOCK". While that is correct, some whips sell faster than others. For example I'll sell more 8 foot 12 plait bullwhips than 16 plait 12 foot bullwhips. So if the person that backed out of a 16 plait 12 foot bullwhip order after the bullwhip is finished, that whip (and my money) will be sitting on the shelf for a lot longer than if I were to make two 6 foot 12 plait bullwhips out of the kangaroo skins.

Personally I think the greatest incentive to me to deliver whips on time is so that I can get the order off my "books". A person whose only incentive to deliver on time is a paycheck is a lazy person and someone that is more suited to be an employee than a business owner. Theres not a lot of money in making whips and if your only reason for making them is the paycheck, then maybe this isn't for you. However when you look at the top whipmakers Joe Strain, Paul and Lauren, David Morgan (Alex and Meagan), their incentive is turning out a quality product...not just money...and all of these reputable makers are also good business people. They know that a whip delivered on time will bring more happy customers and happy customers equal more orders. They are thinking long term...the guy that needs motivation from a single paycheck is thinking short term.

I can't tell you how many hours Joe, David, Paul, Lauren, Steve, etc have spent helping me out, for exactly zero dollars. Their incentive was that they are passionate about making whips...and that plain and simple is good motivation.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

[stoneman]

Louie, I didn't want this to come off as an attack on makers who ask for payment first. I know that the profit margins associated with handmade items like whips are small, and that most makers are in it for far more than getting paid. You can't deny money is a factor in the equation, otherwise we'd all be buying whips for the cost of materials alone.

I don't really want to debate what drives a maker to finish their whip (Obviously having a good reputation, and pleasing your customers are high on the list) nor did I want it to come across like I think anyone asking for upfront payment is out solely for profit either. it's a maker's prerogative to charge when he pleases for whatever reasons he chooses.

What I do want to discuss is how we all prefer to pay as customers, before or after. And maybe the reasons they have for that choice.

Of the whipmakers you mentioned ( Paul, Lauren, Joe Strain, David Morgan) do these makers ask for payment in advance, or upon completion? I haven't ordered a whip from any of them ........yet

[Chewbacca Jones]

Well, I certainly prefer to pay after a product is made. But, for much of the reasons Louie states, I know that can't always be the case when it comes to certain things. If the vendor has a good rep, and I've done my research, I'm willing to shell out in advance for a high quality item like a whip or hat. It also helps to know that paying in advance can low prices by way of lowering the vendor's risk. He or she has to keep less product and less supply in stock, doing nothing, so everybody wins.

Sure, I've been burned once or twice. It happens. But by being careful, you can come out a winner far more than not. So, the short answer is; It depends.

[louiefoxx]

The thing is if someone is going to be dishonest, it doesn't really matter if they have finished it or something custom built. A good example is ebay, lot of people get ripped off buying things there by dishonest seller. I'm not talking about whips, any thing sold ebay...and these sellers who don't send product usually at some point have had the actual product. So the same risk applies whether the item is already made or not.

The reason I mentioned why whipmakers finish whips is that you specifically brought up the monetary incentive being the main motivation for work(for a whole paragraph):

Imagine you were paid for a full years work in January, wouldn't it be so much easier to want to call in sick, or take off early knowing you've already got the cash? Much easier than if you needed to put in a set amount of hours to ensure your wages were paid at the end of the week. Payment for work is probably the largest incentive for you to actually do the work. So take away that incentive, and it's super easy to become relaxed about getting things done. In the old cartoons, you never saw someone give a mule a carrot before the work, it was always held in front of his nose to give him something to work for.

As for money being the reason people are making whips. Yes it is a factor...but honestly I make whips because it's something I'm passionate about. Lets say someone buys an 8 foot bullwhip from me. It's going to take me about 1 1/2 to 2 days to finish. That's 10 - 14 ish hours. Or I could go out and do ONE show for 45 minutes and make more profit than I make for that whip. Or I could go out busking for 3 or 4 hours and make the about the same profit as I would on that whip. If I was a financially smarter man I'd stop making whips, however it's something that I love doing. So yes money is a factor...but for me at least not a significant one.

I'm not trying to knock makers who ask for payment up front, but as the consumer you hold all the power. It's your choice whether you choose to keep that power, or give it, and your money away to someone who most likely you will never ever see in person. It is a lot of trust to put in a person/company that is technically a stranger

It's not uncommon to pay for things before you use them "giving up your power". Here are some examples:

I prepay every month for my daughters swimming lessons.

I prepay my gym membership.

You go to McDonald's and prepay at window #1 before you get your burger to window #2.

A while ago my wife ordered a dell computer and it had to be "made" for her, but Dell made her prepay the full amount to make it.

A few years ago when Prius's were really flying out of Toyata Dealerships you couldn't get one with out prepaying in full, then had to wait weeks/months for your car.

Why is acceptable for my community pool (my local pool is owned by the city, so technically I'm part owner), my Gym, McDonalds, Dell and Toyota to make me prepay...but when a whip maker asks you are giving up your power as a consumer?

It comes down to if you want any old whip then you will find something that someone has in stock. But if you want an 8 foot 12 plait bullwhip with darker top knot in saddle tan made at David Morgan, then you have to play by the seller's rules.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

[bernie47]

I only make whips to order and keep none in stock. I do require either full payment when I start a whip or at least half deposit and the remainder on completion when I send a photo for approval. If there is a long waiting period I will tell a customer that I will be in touch when their turn comes up and they can pay then. I don't like holding money for future orders mainly because it is just to easy to lose the information regarding that order. Computers tend to crash at the most awkward times and if you don't back up your information on most occasions you can kiss it all goodbye.
On about 4 occasions in the last 12 years I have relented and not asked for payment up front and on each of those occasions have been left with a whip that was made especially for someone with engraved sterling silver rings. I agree fully with Louie, if you shop for anything on the internet or for that matter at your local store you pay up front. You should however when buying over the internet do a bit of homework if you don't know the persons reputation . You should also pay only with a credit card or Paypal. With both of these methods you have the option to dispute payment if you don't receive the article or you are not happy with it.

[riku1914]

With most things, yes i would wait for the finished product, but with things such as whips, that have so many variables, and are

more often than not made to order, they take much time. Because of this, the money is expected up front. You not only need

money for materials, but also money to live on while you finish that whip, and get ready for the next one. ( assuming you make

whips for a living )

[Skip]

I've purchased a few whips, and sold a few as well. I've never asked for payment before sending a picture of the finished product, and I've never sent payment without seeing a finished product. I can understand asking for a small deposit (materials for whips can be pricey), but to pay for something in full before it is anything more than an idea can be risky, as some here have unfortunately learned first hand. I'm a bit of a knife collector as well, and the same goes for buying a custom knife. You'd be hard pressed to find a collector willing to part with their cash before the knife is finished, after all sometimes these waiting lists are years long.

This is a subject that I’ve been struggling with for a long time. Right now I do not take payment or even a deposit up front. I do this for two reasons. First: I can’t be considered, by any stretch of the imagination a good business man. Second: It’s just the way I’ve always done it… Not very well thought out reasons I know, but if you refer to my first reason it becomes clear. My list of poor business decisions is impressive, if I do say so myself.

I agree with everything Louie has to say on the subject.

As for money being the reason people are making whips. Yes it is a factor...but honestly I make whips because it's something I'm passionate about.

^
This sums up the argument right here.. For me, and I can imagine for most whipmakers, money is not why I got in to the business. I like to braid leather, if someone wants to give me money to do that then so much the better. So really what does it matter how or when anyone but yourself gets paid, the point is you do get paid for something you would, in all probability be doing anyway.

Just my 2 cents


Skip

[riku1914]

I've purchased a few whips, and sold a few as well. I've never asked for payment before sending a picture of the finished product, and I've never sent payment without seeing a finished product. I can understand asking for a small deposit (materials for whips can be pricey), but to pay for something in full before it is anything more than an idea can be risky, as some here have unfortunately learned first hand. I'm a bit of a knife collector as well, and the same goes for buying a custom knife. You'd be hard pressed to find a collector willing to part with their cash before the knife is finished, after all sometimes these waiting lists are years long.

This is a subject that I’ve been struggling with for a long time. Right now I do not take payment or even a deposit up front. I do this for two reasons. First: I can’t be considered, by any stretch of the imagination a good business man. Second: It’s just the way I’ve always done it… Not very well thought out reasons I know, but if you refer to my first reason it becomes clear. My list of poor business decisions is impressive, if I do say so myself.

I agree with everything Louie has to say on the subject.

As for money being the reason people are making whips. Yes it is a factor...but honestly I make whips because it's something I'm passionate about.

^
This sums up the argument right here.. For me, and I can imagine for most whipmakers, money is not why I got in to the business. I like to braid leather, if someone wants to give me money to do that then so much the better. So really what does it matter how or when anyone but yourself gets paid, the point is you do get paid for something you would, in all probability be doing anyway.

Just my 2 cents


Skip

exactly my point, when i make whips, i do it as a hobby, as something i enjoy. But if someone i know wants a whip, i'll most

definitely sell them one, in that way, not only do i make a whip for free ( as in materials ) but i also make more money to cover

the next one or so

[Canuck Digger]

I haven't written anything for a long time, but I felt this was a good place to re-surface.

While I am not a full-time whipmaker, it takes me as much time as any other (if not more) to make a whip, and unlike full-timers, I cannot afford to keep a large stock of leather, so I buy hides in small quantities and this ends up costing me more, so I make less of a profit because I don't benefit from bulk discounts. But I don't charge more for the whips I make, because this is my decision, and I accept that it isn't the customer's fault and so there is no reason anyone else should pay for it. That's fine.

But

this also means I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars on leather and many, many hours of work, to be left holding a whip someone ordered and skipped out on. This has happened a few times to me.

What I now do is if I get a good vibe from the person, I will ask for half up front and half at delivery. Otherwise I will ask for the entirety up front, but I don't feel comfortable with that. Guess I'm no Donald Trump hehehe.

As a final thought, if you wanted to buy a Japanese sword traditionally made by a Japanese sword smith in Japan, with the appropriate paperwork from the japanese government, it would cost you upward of TEN THOUSANDS DOLLARS and it is all up front. It will take months for the sword to be made and that's not counting the waiting list, and you must pay in advance to get on the waiting list. So you see, this is something that comes with many crafts, it's just the difference between mass-production and hand made items that are labor-intensive.

Hope this helps to give some perspective.
Regards,

Franco

[Skip]

I haven't written anything for a long time, but I felt this was a good place to re-surface.

Franco

Hello Franco

Good to see you back. I hope all is well.

[Canuck Digger]

last year was ####, but getting better slowly.

thanks Skip

Franco

[stoneman]

last year was ####, but getting better slowly.

thanks Skip

Franco

I was wondering why I never heard back from you. I'm glad to hear things are getting better

[Canuck Digger]

My most sincere apologies. I went through a situation that can best be described as a "crisis" and this led to me being rushed to the emergency with a herniated disk, the magnitude of which, most people never fully recovered from. I have spent the last six months unable to do the most menial tasks, let along whipmaking.

I'm better now. It is still tender and may yet be for a while, but nothing like what it was. I have recovered from the neurological damage and I can now walk normally and even lift my body weight with the one bad foot alone. It isn't as strong as the other one yet, but I couldn't even lift the heel off the ground for months, so I don't really care how many reps I can do. I'm just happy to be walking again.

The rest, which has nothing to do with my back, is psychological and private and is at least as difficult to recover from as the operation itself... So you could say it was a very tough year for me. But I'm still kicking and am hoping to be able to resume whipmaking in a few months.

Thank you for you concern and again. sorry for going all incognito on everyone; it's not really my style but was unavoidable.
Cheers,

Franco

[stoneman]

Franco, I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say I wish you the speediest of recoveries. It sounds like you really went through the wringer. Back problems, even minor ones, are no joke and I know can be intensely painful. I'm glad to hear you're back on your feet, hopefully this will all be but a memory very shortly.

all the best,
Stephane

[Canuck Digger]

Thanks Stephane,
well the pain was pretty surprising, but that was really nothing compared to the fear of never walking again. When I was rushed into the O.R., the doc basically told me there are no guaranties and I just have to cross my fingers and hope for the best and that if I didn't have the operation right then (god, how could I not, I couldn't walk or stay upright for more than two minutes at a time!) it was an almost certainty that in a day or two, the choice would be made for me anyway. I was able to stand up the very next morning, but it took a few months for the numbness to go away and the neurological functions in my leg muscles to return. Those were the hardest moments; in the dead of winter things always seem a bit bleaker than they are anyway, but not knowing if I was ever going to recover fully, when most don't, was disheartening at times I'll admit.

Still, I was never really depressed or anything, just uncertain about the tomorrow. So everyday, sun or snow, I would get out and do my little walks and try to walk a bit further each time, and I'm sure that had a lot to do with my recovery.

Anyways, the whipmaking will have to wait a little while more; you just don't realize how everything is connected to your lower back until it is damaged...

Thanks for the support, but I think the worst of it is over now.
Cheers!


Franco

[J. Roed]

I personally like the "half now/half on completion" school of thought with regards to this subject. This really gives incentive to the whipmaker to complete work as quickly as possible and shows commitment on the part of the buyer.

This goes without saying, but always go with a seasoned whipmaker with a good reputation.

[riku1914]

I personally like the "half now/half on completion" school of thought with regards to this subject. This really gives incentive to the whipmaker to complete work as quickly as possible and shows commitment on the part of the buyer.

This goes without saying, but always go with a seasoned whipmaker with a good reputation.

That's what I do. Everybody has been happy with that. A couple people have decided to pay in full up front, but I don't ask for that.

I can understand people with a LONG waiting list asking for full payment up front, because that way they can spend more time making whips and less tracking down people to pay the second half of their whip.

[Zuiun]

Let me give some perspective regarding pricing and paying up front.

Keep in mind that my "industry" is vastly different from whip making, but the payment structure isn't all that different.

I photograph weddings. For every wedding I book, I require a deposit. This reserves the date. It is a commitment by the couple to actually utilize my services, and so I remove that date -- and any other potential earnings -- off of my calendar. This is what the deposit covers. I don't have to buy materials ahead of time to shoot a wedding the way a whip maker does, but the concept should be similar for a whip maker, too -- the deposit let's him reserve the time for the client.

I require the remainder of the payment to be made in full by no later than the date of the wedding. That is to say, by the time I show up to photograph, I require being paid in full.

Now here's the thing: Many people assume that my *job* consists of just shooting the wedding. But that isn't true. I have to budget time AFTER the wedding for preparing the photos. That time, like the wedding day itself, is time I cannot sell to any other clients. I have to commit that time. So getting paid in full by the time I shoot the wedding ALSO pays for my time to work on the photos, because my job for the client doesn't end on the wedding day. It ends when I deliver the photos.

But because that photo work takes time, my incentive to work quickly is not with the current client, but in future clients. That is to say, if it takes me 4 weeks to edit and deliver a wedding after the ceremony, that's 4 weeks I'm not available for other clients. That is future work that I have to turn down. So my desire to work quickly is not inspired by the current client, but by my desire (and need) to get more clients.

A whip maker has to think in those terms, too. Once they commit to make you a whip, that is time they cannot devote to any other clients. So they either have to turn down other work, or put you on a waiting list. It isn't in their best interest to view it from the perspective of "oh, I have their money so I can take my time." It's in their best interest to think, "I need to work as quickly and efficiently as possible because I have future clients wanting to pay me."

[riku1914]

Also though, keep in mind, that when a whip maker has many whips on the waiting list they make many whips at once, it's more efficient that. For instance I have three whips I'm about to be making. I prepared all the cores at once. I'll be greasing all the hides at once. I'll be trimming all the hides at once. I'll be cutting and preparing all the bellies at once. Plaiting them all at once, rolling them all, etc.

Overall it works out quicker than doing one at a time, but just like Zuiun said, the time you spend whip making now is time you can't spend on someone else's whip, they have to wait. If a whip maker drags his heels through the process, he may come out ahead at first, but he'll get the reputation for taking too long and eventually lose orders.
How long is too long depends on each whip maker also For instance, I know a particular whip maker whose wait time, last I asked, was 32-38 weeks! I know for a fact he doesn't drag his heels with it, he's very efficient, like I said making many whips all at once, but he still has a long wait time. That speaks for itself in quality, because if people are willing to wait that long you know you have a good reputation.

I kinda got off track I think...

I know another whip maker who asks for a deposit, not necessarily 50% but a good chunk to put your name on the waiting list. Then before he starts the whip he required the rest of the money. All of it's understandable if you're working with a reputable vendor.
May I point out again that if you have a lot of people waiting, if you require part now and part later, you can spend a LOT of time tracking people down to get them to pay for their whip, and possibly lose orders because it's been so long and they've lost interest. I completely understand that.

I do see how with some situations ( the one with Graeme Roberts, for instance ) it may have helped him move along if people didn't give him all up front. There comes in again the reputable vendor thing. If you've been around for a long time and have the reputation of getting whips out as quick as you can, then you have the right to charge all up front. People like myself who haven't been around for a long time should do the down payment thing. I know that I make whips as quickly as possible ( but not rushing, that's not what I mean when I say quickly, I'm talking about not procrastinating and getting to it ) but since I haven't been around a long time not everybody knows that, so I'm sure it would turn a lot of people away if I said I required a full payment before even getting the leather for their whip.
That's my opinion I guess ( long time vendors charging however they like and me being fine with it , newer people doing it with deposits ). I think it would hold up and potentially help with people trying to scam or get out of work.