Copies, copies and more copies...

[Texan Scott]

This is kinda tongue in cheek, but I noticed something, and it made me go....hmmm.... .... TN copied a screen jacket, maybe the Hawaii jacket? Diego copied a TN; BK copied a TN, then copied Peter's Cert. and Kreed's artwork (BK copies everything ); USW claims to be the original maker; Peter is the original maker and he copied a Todd's Std. I say all this jokingly, but it just sounded funny to me. I hope you guys can find the humor in it too?

Nevertheless, I assume that the jacket(s) that LFL kept was the Hawaii jacket? I have wondered many times, though, what happened to the WoS/Flying Wing jacket? Did Ford keep that one, or the LFL archives? Was it not Terry Leonard's stunt jacket, possibly the one he used for the truck drag that became the proto. for G&B around 2000? I remember that it was described as being in very poor condition. Interesting jacket history. Quite possibly, there were only 2 jackets used for the Hero jacket in Raiders (excluding the BW), the RB/WoS/Flying Wing which is often referred to as the main "Hero" jacket and the Hawaii/Imam jacket? I've often made reference to this still: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm556972800/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...the leather used to make this jacket looks much like the modern day repros. You can even see the slice marks with the knife, etc.

[ShanghaiJack]

That's a whole lot of copying going on. Sheesh! I will say that if this keeps up we will soon have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to having a great looking Indy jacket. This must be the golden age for Raiders' jackets!

I would say that TN definitely copied the Hawaii jacket. If I had the time today I could easily recreate the photo you linked to of HF, without HF of course, using my TNO. The collar lays flat just like in the photo, which I don't care for really –I prefer the collar in the Raven Bar, and the hide looks much the same. The hide on the Hawaii jacket imo was not smooth. That photo is one of the shots where you can clearly see the grain, not necessarily striations.

It would be interesting to know how many jackets were used for the Hero jacket definitively, but I doubt that will ever happen.

[Gorak]

I have sometimes gone around with these things in my head but in the end, I just decide,"so what?"
If everything is true about Nowak and his getting his hands on an actual Raiders jacket and him having this amazing ability to replicate it, then why in the world, if i was going to offer my own jacket, would i NOT copy one of his jackets. The end result is to offer a most accurate Raiders jacket and if Nowak had his hands on a real one then that woul be the be all to end all in the search.
Like if Garrison found and recorded a screen used harrison ford fedora in pristine condition then began offerring hats based on those specs.......then it would be wise for anyone wanting to offer a specific Raiders hat to copy those specs.
now, there are nice ways to do that and underhanded ways and that will make or break you as a vendor but the point of this rant is the idea of everybody copying everybody.....it is alittle funny but makes perfect sense to me if I was out to offer a faithful Raiders jacket. I never felt duped or anything by Kelso's Relic Hunter.....i understood exactly what i was getting and felt it is perfectly explained on the website....and they did exactly what I woud have done....borrowed the pattern and tweaked it by offerring my own concept of more accurate leather, tags, lining, or like Wested did and just opened the collar more......things like that, which use the most sreen accurate Raiders pattern we can confirm, and then add our own dimension to make it even just that much better. So to them all i say,"Keep copying!"

[Texan Scott]

Of course within the truth there is a bit of irony and humor, but I say it all in a joking way. When I first opened the box from Tibor and found this dark brown Hero in lamb, I marveled at its craftsmanship. This is an outstanding jacket, and whomever Peter has as his leather technicians today, they are rocking that barn at present, leaps and bounds from where we were even a few years ago. Yet, when I first examined this jacket, it reminded me so much of the older Todd's Standard's jackets, espcially the thinness of the leather and the faithful adherance to what we saw on film. I recalled what Peter said in a post, that it got to the point where he looked at several jackets, undoubtedly a TN and a Todd's, other vendors offerings, and then set out to tweak his patterns accordingly. Of course, I understand 'why' it happened. Over the years, members asked for many tweaks to the pattern on their own, and took advice from others who reported what they thought they saw on screen. Over the years, the process was subtle, but due to pattern tweaks, there was drift.

Nevertheless, the end result is that we are receiving more SA, quality Raiders jackets than ever, and yes it is a unique time, somewhat of a "golden age" for them and for us. Back around '2000, forum members had the chance to examine a Raiders stunt jacket, and this became the G&B Expedition. Coyle received these measurements and started making his own Raiders jacket. TN apparently was loaned a film jacket, and produced the most faithful copies up to that point. This opened the door for other retailers, to change things for the better. The end result is we have a much better Raiders jacket today than we ever had before, which is what everyone wanted in the first place.

I would hope that at some point in the near future, they will also adopt the same standards for the LC jacket as well. It's great to simply order your size and not worry about the details.

[fifthchamber]

Yes....Totally.

I was discussing this with a very close friend of mine recently due to the Jacket now being worked up by Diego..There is no doubt that, for all the years of searching and work put in by everyone here, and others too, that we've finally reached a point where we can honestly say we "have the Raiders" jacket that we can see on film..

It honestly has reached a point now where despite Diego's great design and lovely skins, I'd be hard pushed to order one simply because I have two stunningly accurate Raiders jackets already...

What I'm hoping for, is that this crosses over, and since people already own an accurate Raiders, someone outside of Tony can offer us a "screen accurate" Last Crusade too...Since that really is the only "other" financially viable alternative...The Temple jacket is lovely too, but not wildly different enough for most people (even here) to feel they "need to own" it...Leaving the 3rd and 4th movies versions....

Of course, Nowak has already done so, and the jackets made by Tony are some of the best LC ones I've seen...And his are the 4th of course, but I'd say, all things considered, we all owe a lot of thanks to both Tony Nowak and everyone else who had posted photos of their "custom" designs over the years...It's led us all to a good place as far as Raiders jackets goes!

While I'm a touch less "sure" about the G&B design itself, you can be 100% that it's a GOOD jacket, well made and easily strong enough to last, and I'd suggest that that amount of quality has also shown people what "good jackets" REALLY are well enough to require everyone to step up their game closer to the level...So the contribution there is just as vital to getting the "complete package" we see now with vendors like Wested (I agree, brilliant recently..Really...Although I've always liked them..), and Todd too, producing cheap, but accurate jackets...The new offering from Diego will be the same, and the Kelso and Nowak and Raiders look perfect, and holds the construction of the G&B as well....Custom design wise we have Magnoli too, and Wested have done a stellar job recently there too..Covering all "holes"...So..Design wise, we have ALL the choice we'll need....

I'd say it's certainly good for Indiana Jones jacket lovers...

[Texan Scott]

To me, the big allure to the Temple jacket was its leather, which sets it apart, but when I think of the ToD, I recall the small pockets and wide yoke.

[backstagejack]

I've never been a fan of the "Raiders" jacket....I just don't find it a functional jacket, whereas I find that the LC (especially in cow or horse) is more of a functional jacket. While that's just my opinion, I will say that I find projects like what Steel&Jones is up to is incredible and looks amazing.

I do hope we can one day get a great LC out there though.....as I own a pre-2000 Raider's Wested (clown collar and all) and have been waiting to get my self a great LC style jacket.

[CM]

I've never been a fan of the "Raiders" jacket....I just don't find it a functional jacket, whereas I find that the LC (especially in cow or horse) is more of a functional jacket. While that's just my opinion, I will say that I find projects like what Steel&Jones is up to is incredible and looks amazing.

I do hope we can one day get a great LC out there though.....as I own a pre-2000 Raider's Wested (clown collar and all) and have been waiting to get my self a great LC style jacket.

Huh? Apart from the snaps how is it more functional? The differences are aesthetic aren't they?

[Holt]

I think he means the cut of the jacket. there is a HUGE difference in cuts.

LC is more of 'normal' cut jacket if you like, fits very much like an A2 with the shoulder seams sitting on top of the shoulders and falls straight down, whilst the raiders has a narrow shoulder/armhole part and the whole jacket falls of the back making it a somewhat akward jacket to some people.

[CM]

Ok. I guess it's one way to look at it.

[backstagejack]

I think he means the cut of the jacket. there is a HUGE difference in cuts.

LC is more of 'normal' cut jacket if you like, fits very much like an A2 with the shoulder seams sitting on top of the shoulders and falls straight down, whilst the raiders has a narrow shoulder/armhole part and the whole jacket falls of the back making it a somewhat akward jacket to some people.

That's pretty much what I mean, it just feels and looks more functional to me. Also, you can still get a good LC look with cowhide or horsehide which I feel is a more functional leather whereas a good Raiders look really needs the lamb. imo

[Holt]

[Texan Scott]

Another basic difference with the Raiders jacket is that the armholes are cut slimmer in diameter, plus with the gussets, you do not get near the jacket ride up when you lift your arms, as you do with the LC. If you want to adapt the Raiders jacket to the real world, then goatskin is a great way to go, because it is relatively thin and light weight, obviously alot tougher and more durable than lamb. Generally, the Raiders is slim fit, while the LC is relaxed.

[kwad]

To me, the Raiders is more functional than the LC for the exact reason Tex stated.

I have a Wested LC/CS in Novapelle that I think is an awesome looking jacket that fits me rather well. Then I put it on, reach for something, remember why I never wear it and put it back in the closet.

I can get used to my Raiders jacket sliding all over my shoulders, but, I just hate having my arm movement restricted.

[fifthchamber]

Hmm..I've not tried an LC long enough to know for sure, but the recent Nowak CS I got is wide enough in the arm area to not be a problem reaching up..The gussets on the Wested Hero I have work splendidly for that jacket, since the arm holes are narrower and I need that extra movement space to lift my arms without the jacket riding up, but the Crystal Skulls jackets works fine without them due to the looser fit..

Both my Hero, and my Nowak are about the same width in the shoulders, so the only major difference with comfort there is due to the narrow armholes..For me anyway...I have rather wide arms...The Hero works great with gussets, because it needs them..The Skulls works fine without them, because it's wide enough to allow flex....

But I've only owned one LC jacket, and wore it rarely...And recently passed it to a friend who could wear it enough to make it the jacket I knew it "could be"...Heh...

[ShanghaiJack]

What are the differences between the LC and the CS jackets? Are the patterns noticeably different?

[Texan Scott]

cowhide, collar (more like the Hawaii) & pockets are more Raiders-ish.

[backstagejack]

See, while I have an old style lamb raiders pre-2000, my arms ride up like no ones business. They do so as well in my 2011 LC US Wings cowhide. It drives me nuts.

[Texan Scott]

All the new patterned jackets, TN, Hero and BK, even Todd's do not do that. If the USW Hero in cowhide had the right pocket size and placement, that would have been a heck of a close enough LC jacket. The pockets tended to go East-West on you and the back panel was a cape.

[backstagejack]

All the new patterned jackets, TN, Hero and BK, even Todd's do not do that. If the USW Hero in cowhide had the right pocket size and placement, that would have been a heck of a close enough LC jacket. The pockets tended to go East-West on you and the back panel was a cape.

hm.......well, I can't stand my sleeves riding up. I'm now wondering if my thoughts on the LC should be rethought if it's an inherent fault in the design of the jacket......it's one of the reasons I have never worn my USWings LC and am trying to rid myself of it. I just figured it was that the sleeves on the US Wings just weren't long enough as I have long arms. I was going to go the custom jacket route with Wested and some modified specs.

[Holt]

All the new patterned jackets, TN, Hero and BK, even Todd's do not do that. If the USW Hero in cowhide had the right pocket size and placement, that would have been a heck of a close enough LC jacket. The pockets tended to go East-West on you and the back panel was a cape.

I disagree with you there. It's still one of my favorite jackets and it's the one I wear in winter. I love it! I have a great looking backpanel and the pockets sit exactly where they should sit. what I am trying to say is that they are not behaving akward. and the leather, dont get me started on that!

but people, it might look like an ''LC'' jacket, it is FAR from it. I see the ISW more like a CS jacket then a LC. regardless of style.. It's jsut an Indy style jacket. It's not based on anything.

[CM]

I still don't think you can say which jacket is better for real world functionality. If you're referring to film jackets then how can you tell? The look? The Raiders looks more real world, while the LC has that terrible fake distressing. I had a Wested LC and I have a Raiders G&B. If you're talking real world jackets then the Raiders wins in that comparison. In quality, functionality, fit and looks.

But back to the to the films, to my eye, the Raiders looks real, like a second skin, like a jacket that fits properly and has been worn over many years. The LC looks stiff, baggy and like a fan jacket by comparison. Which is funny because it was a copy of a fan jacket. Mind you, I really like the LC pocket design. heck, this is too hard....

[backstagejack]

I still don't think you can say which jacket is better for real world functionality. If you're referring to film jackets then how can you tell? The look? The Raiders looks more real world, while the LC has that terrible fake distressing. I had a Wested LC and I have a Raiders G&B. If you're talking real world jackets then the Raiders wins in that comparison. In quality, functionality, fit and looks.

But back to the to the films, to my eye, the Raiders looks real, like a second skin, like a jacket that fits properly and has been worn over many years. The LC looks stiff, baggy and like a fan jacket by comparison. Which is funny because it was a copy of a fan jacket. Mind you, I really like the LC pocket design. heck, this is too hard....

While I agree the LC had tons of fake distressing that was painfully obvious.....to me it's cut, fit, etc made it seem that it was a more functional jacket. To me the Raider's jacket seemed sloppy....as if someone had just said...Ah! Let's throw a military type leather jacket on him, and since it's the desert, make it the thinnest leather possible! This they measured Ford, and threw a jacket on him with some classic 40s design but almost slap dashed together. Of course it was like a second skin, because it fit him like a glove, it moved with his every move because it was so light and thin, whereas the LC fit like a Jacket. While the Lc was lamb, I heard it was a supposed thicker lamb than the raiders. Thus the "hardier" look to it, and the reason why people insist it was cowhide, etc. Again, what I heard not what I know, I am in no way an expert on the LC as many others on this site are.
it just seems the LC would provide more of a real world application. At least to me.

I felt the LC while emulating the Raiders, jsut had an overall more "thought" to it? Does that make sense. This is purely just my opinion though.

Since I only own a pre2000 wested lamb Raiders and a US Wings CS cowhide.....I probably am not the right person to be debating this. I've never owned a proper LC.

And again, hearing that the LC's design inherently leads to the sleeve riding drastically wen you lift your arm, and the Raider design doesn't lend itself to that....well....I can't STAND when my jacket does that. So despite my preference, I would chose the raiders' based on that fact alone, as that's a huge pet peeve I have on my US Wings and my old design wested.

[Texan Scott]

There is a fix for that, and it would be to modify the LC slightly, and use something like the RoLA pattern armholes and sleeves with gussets added. With the LC pattern, it really comes down to the diameter of the arm holes that causes it to ride up.