DM Whip Validation Request

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:19 pm

I believe this is a genuine DM and pulled the trigger on the purchase. The owner didn't have the original receipt or documentation to validate it, so I had to go by photo comparisons. He advised the custom fall was installed for cutting cards/cigarettes and the original fall/popper will be sent with the whip. Any comments?

Cheers,

Indyfan71

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:03 am

It looks like the whips that come out of david morgan's shop today ( not made by david ). Do you know what year it was supposed to be made? That might help because David's whips fluctuated in their overall look over the years.

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:47 am

Hi Indyfan71,

It appears to me to be a Morgan, and looks like it could be 90's era (I would guess mid to late 90's). Although, of course, I can't say with absolute certainty without seeing the whip in person. If you have the name of the original buyer, perhaps with a quick call to the David Morgan shop they can confirm and will be able to tell you when it was made.

I have to say though, that the way the custom fall was attached saddens me a bit. Unfortunately, over the years I have seen many performer's whips who have been performing since pre-internet (easily accessible information) days, where the fall attachment has been butchered. And while the custom fall is very interesting, it is definitely not necessary for cutting cards or cigarettes. (For examples see Antony DeLongis, Chris Camp, Adam Winrich, or a vast number of professional whip performers out there)

If you would like to have the fall attached properly, the custom one or otherwise, drop me a line. I'd be happy to do it just to restore the whip, and to see it in person.

Congratulations on your purchase! It looks to be a fine whip in very good condition, aside from the fall attachment which is an easy fix.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:23 am

Paul,

That is extremely kind of you to offer to reattach/restore the fall for me and I'd be happy to take you up on that offer. Please PM me your contact info, address and what you charge for your help.

Indyfan71

Marhala · Post by **Marhala** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:51 am

Wow, that's interesting. The fall tapers. Wonder how it was made. It seems to me some sort of synthetic cord.

I'm glad I didn't post before reading the first comments. My first impression was that it is a Morgan too, but I didn't want to venture.

Good purchase in any case!

Aldo.

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:07 pm

Personally, I have my doubts about this being a DM.

I think it's fairly obvious it's at the very least a well-made DM-influenced whip. But the taper and the width of the strands don't ring DM to me. Again, it's just an opinion so better to check with them to be sure. I'm certain they can recognize their work, I know I can mine...

Either way it's a nice whip and if you get a new fall on it, it'll be good as new.
Congratulations,

Franco

parttime · Post by **parttime** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:21 pm

Nice whip,

What gets me is how the plaiting is straight but the whip is coiled side ways.
You can tell by the direction of the braid and the side ways position of the wrist loop.

Is the heel knot hard and heavy like it has lead in it?

-Dusty

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:28 pm

Not sure about how the whip feels yet--I won't have it in my hands until 14 Aug or so. I sent a photo to David Morgan and they advised that, although it's hard to tell from a picture, it looks a lot like one of thiers. I'll post more info as I get it. In any case, it appears to be a good find.

Cheers,

Indyfan71

drewtheman · Post by **drewtheman** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:51 pm

I have a 6 foot Morgan I bought last year and that whip does look like mine. I would show you But I need help posting pics. What is the easiest way too, thanks.

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:09 pm

The only way I found to post pix is to put them on photobucket and right-click on the IMG area below the picture, copy it, and paste it in your post.

Cheers,

Indyfan71

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:39 pm

I use imageshack but yeah that's the idea. On imageshack it's called the forum code that you copy and paste.

drewtheman · Post by **drewtheman** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:01 am

this is my Morgan I got last year, Hope this helps. Thanks guys!

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:30 am

I once bought a 10ft Morgan second hand that was so cheap it had to be too good to be true. The owner claimed to have bought it in the early 90s and pretty much kept it in storage. I bought it anyway as it was a great price and I didn't want to miss out. Afterwards I wrote to David Morgan and asked if they had a sales record for a guy of that name, from that location, at that time. They wrote back shortly afterwards with the order details from 92 - and it was a 10ft.

They keep detailed records, so if you ask the guy when he bought it, they may well be able to give you a definitive answer.

Personally, it doesn't quite look like a 90s Morgan to me - but then I've only owned 2 from that period. I would say it could be a recent Morgan or a faithful replica (Bernardo maybe?) Either way a great looking whip.

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:16 pm

I asked the owner the year he bought it and the name he bought it under. He readily advised that he bought it directly from David Morgan in 1983 and provided his name and city he lived (Norman, Oklahoma) in at the time of his purchase.

I then contacted DM and the repreasentative--Michael--confirmed that the individual's name was in their records, and that it was associated with the Norman, Oklahoma. Michael also advised, however, that thier records from that far back don't track what was actually purchased, so that trail ended there.

I followed up by asking Michael if the whip in the picture was representative of a David Morgan whip from the early 80s, noting that the design had changed a bit over the years, especially in the handle area. Michael responded, "The knots and everything look right. It definitely looks like one of ours but it's still impossible to tell for sure. Each one is hand made so no two whips will ever be exactly the same. Either way it looks to be well made. The taper looks nice and even all the way down and the seams in the braid do not rotate around the whip. This means an even pull on each strand as it was braided. You might want to get a proper fall and cracker on it but other than that it looks nice."

I should think that there's enough circumstantial evidence present to conclude that this is, in fact, a 1983 David Morgan whip, just as the seller claims. This makes me a VERY pleased second owner!

IndyFan71

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:36 pm

I don't want to flog a dead horse, especially after what the folks at DM said, but isn't it customary for them to place the wrist loop the other way around? Again, not suggesting anything here, but I am curious about this little detail, if you have any info on that.
Thanks,

Franco

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:00 pm

Franco,

Michael, the David Morgan rep, responded to your question with the following, "The wrist loop is the same as we have always done for our bull whips. This has never changed. We arrange the wrist loop differently on our signal whips but this has never changed either."

Cheers!

Indyfan71

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:20 pm

What looks wrong about the wrist loop? (Just asking for my own edification.)

Excellent purchase.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:24 pm

Franco is referring to the seam that the wrist loop lines up with. The one seam that is plaited into ( if you're holding the handle, it's the seam point away from you ) is what they tend to line the wrist loop up with, on the supposed DM whip, the wrist loop is lined up with the other seam ( the one I prefer to line the wrist loop up with ).

Good eye, I didn't think about checking that

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:58 am

Oildale Jones, there is nothing "wrong" with the wrist loop per se, but if you look at Drewtheman's DM whip, the wrist loop is in line with the coil of the whip, but in Indyfan71's whip, the wrist loop is 90 degree to the direction of the coil. I noticed this because this is how I make them; so that the opening to the loop is directly available from the top when the whip is in the hand, whereas DM usually makes their wrist loop 90 degrees to that so that you need to enter it by the side. It's no big deal, but it is a peculiarity with DM whips and as far as I know, they've always made them this way, but the pic posted by Indyfan71 shows a wrist loop that is not in the usual line at 90 degree to the one in Drewtheman's pic... So unless the pic shows a weird angle that I am misinterpreting this, this would mean that this particular whip has the wrist loop in a different position than DM normally places it, which could make the whip even more interesting from a collector's stand point. I just don't understand why Michael and I are seeing different things here...

Either way, it's a great looking whip!
Cheers,

Franco

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:24 am

Franco,
I've seen Morgan bullwhips with the wristloop placed both ways. Bernardo once posted some great pics from his visit to Morgan some years ago and if I remember correctly some of the older whips had the wristloop like the one in question here.
Based on the pics I've seen of 80s era Morgans, I would be very surpised if that'S what this one is. But then, life is full of suprises!
This whip just doesn't look old enough or skinny enough.

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:36 am

Ah cool ok thanks for the info

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:01 am

Ah, I see it now. Thanks.

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:09 pm

I received the whip in the mail today. I was surprised at how substantial it is compared to my inexpensive Kip-Hide whip. It must weigh 4 times as much and actually made my arm feel like it was working. And when you move your wrist, it just rolls out smoothly instead of kind of just flopping over. Very neat! Also, the color is a very rich brown and the size of the handle is almost exactly the same size as the Kip-Hide Indy-style whip I've been using since 2007; it's not nearly as "fat" as it appears in the picture. In any case, it's on its way to Paul Nolan now to have the original and very well-aged thick white fall/black popper professionally reinstalled. Perhaps he'll have some comments to add.

Cheers,

Indfan71

J. Roed · Post by **J. Roed** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:38 pm

Beautiful bullwhip!!! A great find at what you paid for it too... get the fall fixed up and the whip restored by Paul and you have a beautiful find!!! I am jealous...

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:50 pm

Folks,

I gave Paul Nolan permission to keep the braided fall/cracker that he's currently removing from the whip. He intends to study it a bit, being an uncommon sight. If you have any questions regarding the detail of that fall, please feel free to e-mail Paul; he's willing to share a bit about what he discovers.

Cheers,

Indyfan71

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:25 am

I'm quite excited to have just received photos from Paul Nolan showing the hitch/fall he crafted on the end of my whip as compared to the two other David Morgans in his collection. Mine is on the left. He truly does fantastic work!

IndyFan71

Marhala · Post by **Marhala** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Wow! They all look gorgeous for their age!

Aldo.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:28 pm

Nice whips, but strangely none seem to look the same as the original posted pic. The whip on the left has a different wrist strap position and the keeper knot isn't dark. The other two don't seem to have the right butt knot shape. Very odd...

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:46 pm

I thought the same thing immediately upon seeing the pictures

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:20 pm

I appreciate the concern, but I took photos before sending it out and, using a photo of the whip's butt compared to a zoom of one of the photos Paul had sent to me (see below), I see that the knot pattern and marks on the whip I sent are a 1:1 match with the knot pattern on the whip Paul identified in the picture as my repaired whip (despite slight distortion from the zooming/rotating/size-matching attempts). Perhaps the whip was coiled differently for his photo? I can see the lighting certainly affected the hue.

Cheers,

Gman71

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:32 pm

There is nothing odd about it if you're used to seeing, handling and photographing David Morgan bullwhips.

Nick I know you’ve had a few Morgan’s pass though your hands over the years, Jeremy to the best of my knowledge you haven’t but you should both know by now that whips can look different depending on the angle and the lighting conditions they are photographed under. It’s one of the main reasons there is still confusion about the details of the screen used Indy whips and why you should be careful of depending on photos for reference material. I’ve had this same issue photographing my own collection and can guarantee that If you had a good look at some of the confirmed screen used whips, you'd probably doubt they were authentic too for the same reasons.

From the other photos Paul sent me of that 1983 whip he just repaired, there no doubt in my mind it’s the same one in the first picture. Nonetheless, beautiful whips! Its nice to see more Morgan whips on this site. IndyFan71, You are fortunate to own such a fine example of Davids work.

Dan

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:41 pm

I do know that, which is why I didn't make any claims that it might be a different whip or he heard wrong about which whip was his. Plus it's obvious the one on the left has the new fall on it...

Wait a sec, it looks like the whip on the left has the wrist loop lined up differently than in the first picture. Didn't Nick make the same observation?

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:21 pm

riku1914 wrote:I do know that, which is why I didn't make any claims that it might be a different whip or he heard wrong about which whip was his. Plus it's obvious the one on the left has the new fall on it...

Wait a sec, it looks like the whip on the left has the wrist loop lined up differently than in the first picture. Didn't Nick make the same observation?

Jeremy, You didn't you just...

riku1914 wrote:I thought the same thing immediately upon seeing the pictures

Feel free to debate all you like, It may look different but the owner has confirmed the 1983 whip is the SAME whip just lined up differently.

More Morgan’s!

Or are they?

Dan

IndyFan71 · Post by **IndyFan71** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:38 pm

You can tell that the whip (and the strap) has been rotated about 1/4 turn to the right by referencing that the three strands that traverse the top-center of the knot in Paul's picture were on the left edge of the knot in the original picture. The whip was simply coiled slightly differently.

Cheers,

Indyfan71

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:00 am

I'm just basing it off the two pictures I see. In one picture, the wrist loop is lined up with the seam that it's plaited from ( or the seam on the opposite that it's plaited from, it still faces the same way ). Then in Paul's picture it's lined up differently. I don't see how this could change from the angle of a picture, but then again I don't why Paul would have switched the whip ( which I'm not saying he did, I like Paul and he spent a lot of time helping me especially when I was first working on whip making ).

Don't you guys see what I'm talking about? Whiskeyman obviously did. Is it just the whipmakers seeing it?

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:09 am

Here are the rest of the photos we took of the whip.

Before the repair:

A close up of the new fall hitch:

A shot of the whip after it was repaired and given a coat of conditioner:

A shot of the repaired whip with the old custom braided fall/popper:

And a shot comparing the butt knots:

As for the wrist loop orientation, it is strange that it appears a bit different between the two photos. After examining the photos, it looks like it could potentially look that way because of a few different factors including the angle the photos were taken, shadows, the way the whip was coiled, the way the wrist loop was positioned for the photo, etc... And I can personally attest that all I did to the whip was what Indyfan71 and I discussed, which was repairing the fall hitches and replacing the fall and popper, and giving the whip a coat of Pecards leather conditioner since it was somewhat dry. We even discussed securing a floating strand on the butt knot, but we both agreed to leave it since it doesn't present a danger to the knot coming off, and that it also keeps an authentic Morgan "character" to the whip. It is too bad that the whip had already shipped back to Indyfan71 yesterday, otherwise Lauren could try to take another photo from the same angle and with the whip coiled and set up the same way.

Regards,

Paul

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:05 am

I would never doubt Paul's word. Just funny how things can look totally different in pictures.

The Intercept · Post by **The Intercept** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:53 am

Woah those R Sweet!

Sorta sounded like you were saying he switched them too but I see what your talking about. its an optical illusion everythings lined up the same on both pics your just looking at a different seem line.

Peace

T~I

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:04 am

From that last set of pictures I see now why it looked that way! It's because the wrist loop wasn't completely lined up with any seam, it was sort of in between them, which you can't quite see from the first picture on this thread, and the angnel from the picture with it and the other two morgan's made it appear it was lined up with a different seam. Now after seeing the last set of pictures, I can see how it's in between seams, and that's what's causing the problem

The Intercept wrote:Woah those R Sweet!

Sorta sounded like you were saying he switched them too but I see what your talking about. its an optical illusion everythings lined up the same on both pics your just looking at a different seem line.

Peace

T~I

That wasn't it, we were actually looking at the same seam just from the opposite side, and because it was in between seams and not lined up, because it was on the other side as the picture indyfan showed, it just didn't look right. It's common practice ( at least it has always been for me ) to line up the wrist loop with SOME seam, regardless of which it is ( I line it up with the one that faces you when you hold the whip because I tend to like cracking the whip with the seam facing away from you ) and I thought that David did this too. I believe he did and this particular whip was just an outlier in a list of many whips.

giovanniceleste · Post by **giovanniceleste** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:20 pm

IndyFan71 wrote:Paul,

That is extremely kind of you to offer to reattach/restore the fall for me and I'd be happy to take you up on that offer. Please PM me your contact info, address and what you charge for your help.

Indyfan71

Hi Aldo,
the past few months I have built for myself a whip for targeting works (cutting cards/cigarettes) with braided sinew fall and twisted crackers (fall and crackers all in one).
In the next days I'll take the pictures and i post a new topic on a cow.
Regards
gio