"it didn't exist. we made an entirely new hat" - Nadoolman

[Zuiun]

My take: I think that really the most fair thing that can be said is that she deserves as much credit as anyone else. This costume, including the hat, is not the sole product of any one person and I think that without ANY of the people involved, Indy would look very different than what we know and love. Her contribution is vital, regardless of the specific details.

[Michaelson]

M, that was not meant as a insult to you but recent history should teach us one thing. You can't rely on 2nd hand info.

Meant or not, John, it was a subtle back hand.

The information I offered was first hand informaton, obtained in a one-on-one interview with her by COW's Indiana John and myself, and posted vertabim AT COW for a couple of years before being changed/removed at her request, as well as information I had researched myself in past years, so no, your comment was not entirely appreciated.

If you get right down to it, most every piece of information on any Indy related website is based on 'second hand information', and precious little 'first hand' information' is available except to those few of us who were around in the beginning and some of the principals were still willing and available to talk directly to us 'commoners'.

As soon as it was realized a dollar could be made from us in telling/retelling their stories in book or lecture form, that contact was severed.

When 'first hand 'info is offered and ignored or tossed aside out of hand, it's pretty discouraging, but I'm sure I'll survive, for as soon as I posted ANY information, it did indeed BECOME second hand info. Until one of the principals posts the story here themselves in first person, it will ALWAYS be 'second hand' information, no matter what we do or say.

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Sorry you feel it's a back hand insult but I have never taken 2nd hand information as 100% fact. I never will. People tend to get there information wrong, you will have to agree with recent events. There are things we can't take as facts anymore. The information you and John collected to me is 2nd hand information. It's not that I don't beleive you but it's always possible that people remember things wrong, take things the wrong way or may have misunderstood things.

[Michaelson]

You either believe in the integrity of the reporter or you don't. It's as simple as that.

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

I have found with be with the fire department and now the hat biz. That most don't get there facts straight. I go straight to the source. I'm sorry if you find fraught with that kind of thinking. Fact not truth.

[Michaelson]

Apology accepted.

I have always trusted what folks have had to say until they've proven to be either be wrong or otherwise. I have accepted folks at their word.

Might be a weakness of mine, but could also be the reason I've stuck around this hobby as long as I have, or I would have left LONG ago. I've been surprised a few times, of course, but after all these years the vast majority have always been true to their word to me.

Regard! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Don't you think there is a possibility that maybe she changed her story is because people took her the wrong way? Have a open mind but could that have happened?

[Michaelson]

Have an open mind? Well, I can ask the same of you, old friend....

There's always that possibility, but I've found with most all exchanges I've had with people who tell stories is they tend to forget details as time progresses. You can't take a story the 'wrong' way if a detail was never stated in the first place, then added in another telling 2 years later.

Is it a real detail that she just forgot? Sure, it could be, and probably is. All I ever said in the very beginning of this exchange was that it wasn't the story she FIRST told when she first found us in the hobby, that's all. I never said I didn't believe her. I said her story has evolved, and it has.

Many times they recall details, but not be aware the detail they remember so vividly was changed without their knowledge....such as the boots. I have it in writing from HERSELF in 2004 that the boots Ford wore were Redwings, period, no further discussion to be made what so ever....

Here's the direct quote, cut and pasted from the email itself, 1st person information:

He wore Red Wing work boots, by the way, which I bought on Ventura Blvd. in the San Fernando Valley.

That's more than likely a fact...but we ALL know that's NOT what was USED, now, don't we?

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Could it be that DN did go to Swales shop initially, then picked out an Australian styled hat, and made those suggestions, according to her vision for the hat; then maybe a few days later, Ford and SS show up, and the concept acually became reality with the modified Poet? I could see where they could have been two seperate occurances, and she has just been recalling her side of it not knowing about the other? Yet HF and SS's visit actually produced the hat used in the movie? The main Hero fedora could have been produced for HF on the spot, then because it was accepted, several more were ordered and finally delivered..? I wish I had a timeline of her envolvement as well, it might explain alot, as to what she actually did, and when she made her exit? I thought it had been early in the production? It was my understanding too, that due to the Western Costumes and Wilson's Leather capers, they began to in essence, not trust her judgement, and maybe that was one reason why SS & HF showed up at Swale's shop on the side? Theories only.

..could be, like the boots, the hat was two seperate occurances, and she was just recalling her side, and tieing it in with her vision of what she had originally wanted?

[Michaelson]

Anything's possible.

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Anything is possible and that is where I like to go with what we know. The simple fact is if HF and SS had there hands in the ultimate look why did it go so far south for Indy 2 & 3. The only difference between Indy 1 and the next two is Debra. I know it's stateted by someone that SS and GL didn't like what she did so they moved on ( not sure i buy that story) why inthe world would they keep putting her on the dvds???? The next two movies they liked what the new guy did and the big two had more control, then why in the world did the hat look so #### bad????? Ill tell you why because that one all importent person wasn't there. Debra.

[Texan Scott]

It's funny you mention that, Oakster, because HF has stated that he didn't like the Raiders hat, that tight pinch, etc., and they much preferred the relaxed look of the LC/CS hat? Right? Of course, over here at COW, many of us love the look of that SoC fedora, that battered lid that could barely hold its shape...? ...seems fedora pergatory is in the eye of the beholder?

...either way, I have no stake in the hunt, just trying to boil the mystery down and attempt to connect the dots. Things do not always make perfect sense in the behind the scenes Indy world.

[Mike]

In reading through this, I was just about to pull the plug on this thread as the dead horse had been severely beat. I also have the transcripts Michaelson talked about and consider them a first-person interview.

It has been said that Ford/Spielberg didn't like the hat, but where that actually came from, my memory is failing me at the moment. I do know though that when a "raiders style" AB was submitted on the company's behalf for consideration in CS…well I'll just say that I can't repeat what Ford said about it on a family-friendly site. And that came from first-person accounting from a man who's taught quite a few people on these boards about hat making.

[BendingOak]

Mike, I talked to Steve a lot myself about it. I'm sorry your first hand account is not mine.

Scott, that's my point. Ss and ford didn't like the raiders look. Debra's look. That is why she deserves the credit for the look of the hat plus the rest of the costume. Everything that comes after is a version of what she did.

I was just about to applaud you guys for letting the thread flow. That we are having a good talk about this. Please don't shut it down because I'm disagreeing with the house?????

[Hollowpond]

Well, at least HF and SS liked those Red Wing boots she picked up...

[BendingOak]

Well it looks like your minds are locked and there is no real point to try and discuss this anymore. I just don't understand this hatred towards the woman who gave us the look we all love. And with this good night.

[Hollowpond]

It was just a joke, bro! Trying to provide some comic relief. Hence.the " "

[Tennessee Smith]

Our minds?

And um it's not hatred, a little melodramatic there don't you think? Eitherway it's locked since "there's no real point to try and discuss this anymore."

Poor horse...

This friendly locked thread has been brought to you by the Evil admin stopping free speech and whatnot and the letter J.



-The Dude