Bill Kelso's "Relic Hunter"

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 am

http://www.billkelsomfg.com/site/#!relichunter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Thu May 17, 2012 12:01 pm

I already have mine on order, Striated Lamb authentic brown color !

They told me I'm the first one. Will post some pix when I have it in hands.

IndyOriginal · Post by **IndyOriginal** » Thu May 17, 2012 12:03 pm

I'm not (yet) into the A-2s and other flying jackets much, so I've never heard of this company, but the jackets look gorgeous!

I'm kind of ticked at myself for just purchasing a jacket not too long ago. Now that I see this jacket, and the fact that I can get it in striated lamb or horse, veg-tanned etc., I'm questioning my previous purchase.

Anyone have one of these? Or even know more about the maker?

Thanks for the post jnicktem, always good to have more options. How's the little one doing, by the way?

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Thu May 17, 2012 12:10 pm

I have an A2 Rough Wear from Bill Kelso and it's an amazing jacket. The leather is gorgeous (horse hide) and the quality is like my Tony Nowak !
Anyway, Bill Kelso is based in Grece, Europe.

Only one person has one of those jackets up to now (and I will be the second one

).

If you want more info, just read here :
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthre ... -A2-Jacket

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Thu May 17, 2012 12:25 pm

Those jackets are not made in China, don't wurry...

Don't know about the B&N label.

But if it had any errors, you would have seen them on a jacket made by a well known Californian maker also.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu May 17, 2012 3:34 pm

some info on this jacket which has slowly been revealed on another forums:

This is a 1:1 copy of my Nowak Striated Lamb Jacket (#517) jacket. The original owner of the jacket lent this jacket to the people over at Bill kelso shortly before he sold it to me.
All the details are copied exactly. A stitch by stitch copy. Bill Kelso used also the same snaps.
Made 3 improvements. a) the label, b) the lining (cotton silesia like the film jacket), c) the side strap buckle (triglide) is screen accurate. The lambskin on the Kelso is lighter than my jacket.

I didnt know anything about Kelso or my jackets involvement until after I purchased it.

Those are THE FACTS.

The jacket the Kelso is copied directly from is featured here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55043" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu May 17, 2012 4:18 pm

Would you be so kind as to share these "wrongs"?...

Adventure Dog · Post by **Adventure Dog** » Thu May 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Oh.... I love spot the differences! Unfortunately, I don't have the eye for detail that _ does for jackets. I'm guessing the zipper isn't European?
Pricey jacket (for a college student), but it looks really nice! Can't wait to see what it looks like "in the real life"! Those pocket scallops looks real good!

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Thu May 17, 2012 6:30 pm

_ wrote:One stitch detail is done incorrectly.
One stitch should not be there.
There is a detail missing. Search on "Star Magazine" and you may find some threads referring to it.
There is a problem with the zip.

OK maybe for the stitchings... I'm not an expert. But you're pushing the button there !
If with "Star Magazine" you refere to the gussets, don't wurry they are there.
Don't see any problem with the zip...

Now, concerning the label, B&N didn't even made the jacket in the first place... So what's the problem with respecting someone else's work. Tony also copied a jacket with a B&N label, but that doesn't seems to be a problem to you.

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Thu May 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Man, I thought I was done with Indy jackets, and now this comes along. That jacket is beautiful!

Weston

Rick Deckard · Post by **Rick Deckard** » Thu May 17, 2012 6:49 pm

Weston,

You own at least one US Wings Legend. The pockets on the Kelso jacket look huge, like the Legend's. What's your take based upon the pictures? Do those pockets appear to be as large to you as the Legend's???

BTW, I have the Bill Kelso website pulled up...just enjoying the Big Band music! $\:D/$

Edit: May just be the camera angle on some of the shots...b/c on some they appear to be quite normal sized.

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Thu May 17, 2012 7:09 pm

To my eyes, they look the same size. In fact, I'd say they're identical in size and shape to my 30th anniversay Legend.

Weston

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Christian Jones wrote: Now, concerning the label, B&N didn't even made the jacket in the first place... So what's the problem with respecting someone else's work. Tony also copied a jacket with a B&N label, but that doesn't seems to be a problem to you.

Tony never copied the physical, copyrighted B&N label, which is represented on the Kelso jacket. He put a TNO label, not a B&N label in his jackets. Read _'s comment again:

Reproducing company labels is common in the repro market, but they need to be sure nobody already owns them.

Since B&N is still a legitimate and active company, anyone else copying the B&N logo/label and putting it on another manufacturer's jacket and selling them without B&N's consent is a big no-no. THAT is one of the things _ is saying that I think you've missed. It's akin to Pepsi releasing a cola with Coke's logo on it and never asking Coke's opinion on the matter. It's different when one is copying a historical jacket and label from a company that no longer exists, or is no longer owned by any entity. Likewise, if a manufacturer has written agreements regarding the use of a label or name, that is also different. But to flatly copy something outright without regard to proper protocol is frowned upon at best, if that's what's happening here.

In regards to Tony making a carbon copy of the costume jacket, the Bigwigs personally loaned him an actual film jacket for the sole purpose of copying it stitch for stitch. That said, I remember Tony telling me that he did something subtle internally to make sure his jackets were identifiable, and in such a way that no one could truly replicate his work. In the same way, Gibson & Barnes had direct access to a film-used jacket by which they measured and designed the Expedition. Neither of these folks copied each other's work, they tried to duplicate an original they had on hand. It's not the same to say one's jacket is the "closest thing to the real jacket" when they haven't handled or even seen the true jackets in person, but used someone else's jacket as a basis to call their own "the best." I have never seen a Kelso's jacket in person, so I cannot judge the physical quality, materials, and workmanship of one his jackets, but I would hope that there would've been more research than just borrowing someone's TNO, copying that jacket, and selling it completely as their own.

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:23 pm

How would we know if this particular #517 was made by Riley or Tony if there could be several?
Superb looking jacket though, but I have to agree the B&N tag is a bit much. A nice 'Bill Kelso' label would look better there.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:38 pm

This is a bad pic because it doesnt show the whole cert but this is the only one I have on hand at this moment. Tony Nowak made #517. This was 1:1 Ford sized. Mr. Kummer was the original owner, the one who lent the jacket out to Bill Kelso.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:49 pm

Like I stated, I came in after this was done and had no knowledge about this until way after I had originally purchased it. Just verifying its pedigree in relation to the Kelso model. Without condoning or condemning, I am just showing how their pattern originated.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:07 pm

Agree though that the jacket itself is really quite nice. Im always a sucker for grain, subtle or otherwise!

theman · Post by **theman** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Man looked at this sucker before getting through this thread, and thought, "Hey i like the cut of that jacket, looks just like my Nowak, and it even has a nice thin striated shrunken hide as it should for a real Raiders." then I read on and find out why, another clone of Tony's clone of an original. Now that a couple of vendors have done this there are finally some proper looking Raiders running around, well aside from Todd's which has been a proper Raiders cut since it's inception without the benefit of being a copy of a copy of an original.
Looks like this Bill's is also in the price range of the later made Nowak lambs. Personally I like this jacket, aside from the copying a Nowak part instead of Bill taking a stab at patterning his own Raiders... The Berman's label is an interesting touch, if it was done with any sort of proper permission, and I like the lining decision. For that pricepoint I'm still partial to buying a bunch of Todd's to thrash around in though.

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:50 pm

Yep, that is a very handsome can o' worms right there!

orb · Post by **orb** » Fri May 18, 2012 2:59 am

So Wested has the right to make a clone of a TNO Raiders jacket?

CRB · Post by **CRB** » Fri May 18, 2012 3:25 am

Does look very interesting, especially as I was just about to order with G&B then hit a sudden brick wall.

I am wondering how the size is made up - presumably the TNO jacket it was based on is Ford's specs. While that's great if you are Harrison Ford, it isn't so great if you want longer sleeves etc. I shall have to ask them.
(I've never understood why people what HF specs if they aren't HF themselves. Surely the point is to get a jacket that fits you and not Harrison Ford ?)

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri May 18, 2012 8:18 am

I cannot say whether the rights to use the label were obtained or not, but I did want to mention that I do not agree with the use of the historic labels for companies that have gone the way of the dinosaur.

Even if it was done with the utmost respect to the original and the manufacturer clearly stated that this is a reproduction of that jacket and label in their advertisements, that knowledge would only apply to the original buyer. Once a "friend of a friend" puts it on eBay, they start to omit the finer details - like that it is a copy. You see this all the time. "A dear friend of mine has this awesome relic that he gave me right before he died..." It takes the seller off the hook if they are proven wrong - and the original owner (if he even existed to begin with) cannot be contacted without the help of John Edward or a shovel.

A retro label like that makes a nice homage to the original, but in two years when this jacket shows up on Profiles in History as a long lost original screen-used item, somebody will be getting ripped off. Hardcore collectors would know, but the regular Joe on the street would not.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri May 18, 2012 10:48 am

For many the label (or other logo) is the difference between a replica and a counterfeit. One of the few things associated with clothing that can currently be copyrighted.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 18, 2012 4:25 pm

I have an Eastman Rough Wear 27752 repro, and I love that jacket. I admit that I like the historical label they included, but looking at my jacket right now, they also placed a nice "Manufactured by Eastman" label right under the flap of the pocket. It can be easily spotted when you look inside that pocket. In Eastman's case, it looks as if they are are doing their best to provide an accurate reproduction while including their maker mark on the garment, too, in order to distinguish it as a repro and not an original. Now, if some bozo is dishonest enough to remove the maker's label form the jacket, then it goes to show that they are willingly trying to fraud the buyer.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:19 pm

I'd suggest 'we' hold further debate until someone physically has one in their hands to examine. They very well may have the same thing inside their jacket too. We won't know until one is delivered and someone can give a report.

Regards! Michaelson

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:40 pm

Michaelson wrote:I'd suggest 'we' hold further debate until someone physically has one in their hands to examine. They very well may have the same thing inside their jacket too. We won't know until one is delivered and someone can give a report.

Regards! Michaelson

Agreed.

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:59 pm

If Mr. Kelso wants to send me a jacket, I would be glad to look. : ) The jacket looks really good, but you have to go by fit, of course. In case I do not have enough jackets...

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:37 pm

Earlier in the day, I sent an inquiry to see if the jackets were lightweight. They look like they might be. I know they are closed weekends so I am looking forward to Monday and if the answer is yes, I will be ordering one...and give a report, of course!

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Sat May 19, 2012 2:11 am

Gorak wrote:Earlier in the day, I sent an inquiry to see if the jackets were lightweight. They look like they might be. I know they are closed weekends so I am looking forward to Monday and if the answer is yes, I will be ordering one...and give a report, of course!

I'm looking forward to your review Gorak.

Weston

CRB · Post by **CRB** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:33 am

Have confirmed with Bill Kelso's that an extra inch in the sleeve is no problem, but they would charge EUR20 custom fee to lengthen the back length (which I would need as I have a longer torso than HF, 23" looks too short on me). The photos on the website are of the striated lamb and he is going to send me some photos of the 'grainy lamb' over the weekend (vegetable tanned, aniline finish). And the really good news (for me anyway) is that the jackets ship from within the EU so I won't get slaughtered on customs charges.

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:42 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:I have an Eastman Rough Wear 27752 repro, and I love that jacket. I admit that I like the historical label they included, but looking at my jacket right now, they also placed a nice "Manufactured by Eastman" label right under the flap of the pocket. It can be easily spotted when you look inside that pocket. In Eastman's case, it looks as if they are are doing their best to provide an accurate reproduction while including their maker mark on the garment, too, in order to distinguish it as a repro and not an original. Now, if some bozo is dishonest enough to remove the maker's label form the jacket, then it goes to show that they are willingly trying to fraud the buyer.

Kill Kelso does exactly the same as Eastman. There is "Manufactured by Kill Kelso" label under the pocket flap.
But you would have seen it if you would have looked more clearly at the other jackets on the site. You can see it in the pix of the Willis and Geiger jacket...

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:12 am

If anyone will get some sizing chart, please post it here

For me it looks amazing. I'm looking forward for reviews. I'm curious how heavy is that striated lamb

indydude18 · Post by **indydude18** » Sat May 19, 2012 10:15 am

tomek9210 wrote:If anyone will get some sizing chart, please post it here
For me it looks amazing. I'm looking forward for reviews. I'm curious how heavy is that striated lamb

Here you go Tomek:

http://www.billkelsomfg.com/site/#!sizingchart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Sat May 19, 2012 11:16 am

By sizing chart I mean chest size armpit to armpit, back length and sleeves length for each size.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Sat May 19, 2012 12:07 pm

bish · Post by **bish** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:57 pm

There is a huge difference in offering valuable correct information nicely and acting like everyone around you is an idiot (which you've done since your first post). You say you don't care but I really hope a mod will step in and teach you some manners.

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:49 pm

Anyway... Sorry Tundrarider and sorry mods.
You are right, we should be focusing on the jacket and on the size.

If I'm correct size 40 and 42 have a very short back, only 23", I think.

Don't know about the other sizes but I think it's roughly the same.
Also, from what I read, making the sleeves longer is free of charge, but making the back longer will cost an extra 20 €.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun May 20, 2012 11:44 am

Cleaned up, play nice!

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Sun May 20, 2012 11:56 am

Here is some stuff I have on HF sizing (but it is a little weird). Those are the standard HF ford measurements

Sizings:
A->B Front Wind Flap 23.5 inches (59.5cm) with Collarstand (1:1 Original HF)
C->D Chest Across 22.0 inches (56cm) (1:1 Original HF)
E->F Bottom Across 21.0 inches (53cm) (1:1 Original HF)
G->H Each Shoulder 7.5 inches (19cm) (1:1 Original HF)
I->J Back Height 23.25~ inches (59cm) without Collarstand (1:1 Original HF)
K->L Back Across 20 inches (51cm) (1:1 Original HF)
M->N Sleeve Length 25 inches (1:1 Original HF)

(or at least thats what the jacket above was based on) However, when I actually measure out the jacket using tailor tape, all of mine line up except the jacket which, if measurement armpit to armpit comes in a just a tad over 20 inches. Now, the jacket does have the side gussets so if one were to measure those(like, wrapping the tape around the jacket in sort of a three dimensional way) it would come out to a 22 inch chest. I have always had trouble with the chest measurement for these jackets.

orb · Post by **orb** » Sun May 20, 2012 12:36 pm

You need to lay the jacket flat, zip it all up and stretch it a bit in the chest. Then measure it and you should get the 22" to 22.5" measurement.
Do not include the gussets. Just pit to pit.

Cheers

orb

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Sun May 20, 2012 2:53 pm

We're a little slow today, it is Sunday. Plus there are so many threads to look at and I'm going to a graduation now and been at church this morning. I'm gonna lock this one and we'll look at it again in a few.