Pics of Todd's Raider Fedora

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Oh, yeah, BTW, some have mentioned that the rear crown measurement is about the same as the front - it should be about 1" lower in the back. These are shipped suspended upside down in the hat box. One good drop to the floor and out comes the center dent...! Try pushing the back down to get that nice rounded profile.

indyclone · Post by **indyclone** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:59 pm

Puppetboy wrote:Hey, Mark, do you like birds?

Nice angle on the hat, BTW.

-Todd

it's the wife , and she has bird feeders galore outside and then she even feeds the #### squirrels!!!! lol

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 pm

Ok I just ordered my Coyles Raider and Indy satchel. Super excited but I think its kinda funny that my favorite hat style In KOTCS haha. Its just a good combination of all the fedoras in a way, or just to me. Also, did anyone notice that the Coyles Raider has a bit of a green tint to it? And if i want a KOTCS bash on this fedora is it too stiff to curl the edges and back slightly? Im such a newbie at this, so sorry if I'm kinda annoying.

Raven7dp · Post by **Raven7dp** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:29 pm

This hat is very flexible for whichever style you'd like to shape it. The hat doesn't have as much chroma in it but suits me just fine. Once you start distressing it it may take on a different hue. I've yet to encounter that as I'm still trying to sweat in it and run it through the ringer so to speak.

Jonathan

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Right on man, I got todds hollywood dirt for the fedora also, i was told to use a sock and I guess just dab it on for the KOTCS look but I was unsure if I should of also gotten the water repellent for the raiders? Its so new that I don't think its had a lot of time to be weather tested.

Raven7dp · Post by **Raven7dp** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:56 pm

So far the only testing I've done is profusely sweating in it to test the durability. I worked out in the yard uprooting a tree one afternoon. I literally drenched the front brim and sweatband once I took it off. Letting it dry overnight I found that the hat's integrity wasn't compromised as far as flexibility or color. The ribbon was slightly soaked but didn't retain a stain much to my dismay. Over time with more use I'm sure it will develope more characteristics of sustained use.

Jonathan

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:03 pm

does it have a rich brown color?

Raven7dp · Post by **Raven7dp** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:41 pm

I wouldn't call it a rich brown color. It has a muted tone of brown, which still doesn't detract from the great look of this fedora.

Jonathan

MARQ · Post by **MARQ** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:30 am

As said in Die Hard 2:"I´m stunned,I gotta lie-down!!" Mitch,are you sure you ain´t cloned?

excellent set of pictures,send set of them to Mr Ford or Mr Spielberg Or Mr Lucas.. I´m sure you´d get a reply,and FAST!!

....and the fedora,OH,The Fedora for the price and quality,by the look of it,Todd nailed it.

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:22 am

Thanks, MARQ

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:27 pm

ok i have to admit that todds raiders was my last choice i really really wanted an adventurebilt but does anyone else think that they are just over priced? I mean really 600 dollars for a hat? Dont get me wrong most of todds items look really great, but i'm glad i'm still getting a fedora. i don't mean any disrespect to adventurebilt at all i understand people have to make a living but he has to be doing just fine, so i think a large price reduction would be in order.

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:34 pm

Honestly, they're hand made and do take awhile to make. They're not pumped out by the minute like in a factory. Then there's the felt, some of the best out there. And the fact that the guy that makes them made them for the last film by hand, the same way he makes everyone else's.

Plus he's one of the best hat makers in the world. Saying his prices are too high are like complaining about the price of a hand crafted Italian sports car versus a Honda. You get what you pay for.

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:39 pm

it seems very clear that on this forum if you have an opinion that doesnt agree with the majority then you get a lot of passive aggressive replies. Maybe it would be best if I stopped making posts. And for the record Im very aware on how hats are made and what felts are used.

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:41 pm

Then again this might come from people who have adventurebilts

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:45 pm

Really?

I don't think there was a disparaging thing in that post except stating the truth. You said you thought his hats were too high and I told you why they cost what they do. If that offends you to the point of not posting anymore thats on you. You're more than welcome to state your opinion but expect that people will state theirs too. It's a forum, it's how they work.

And I don't own one, I've held and examined one though. I wish I could afford one but right now I can't yet I don't expect him to lower his price to accommodate me.

Maybe next year I'll have the funds

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:05 pm

Seriously dude, your overreacting just a bit. Tennessee is just saying that they are worth what he's asking...He's right.

Not a thing wrong with a Todd's at all, and he never said so.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:02 pm

Aragorn658 wrote:ok i have to admit that todds raiders was my last choice i really really wanted an adventurebilt but does anyone else think that they are just over priced? I mean really 600 dollars for a hat? Dont get me wrong most of todds items look really great, but i'm glad i'm still getting a fedora. i don't mean any disrespect to adventurebilt at all i understand people have to make a living but he has to be doing just fine, so i think a large price reduction would be in order.

Several things here.

First, no disrespect meant to you personally, but I don't think you know everything there is to know about hat making. I've been a serious (every day) fedora wearer for a few years now and I am still learning. With respect to the price of hats, there is only one felter left in the US, that's Winchester, where Steve (and John, and practically every custom hatter save Optimo) buy their felts. Increased demand from China for fur is one reason why prices have gone up. It's not just been Steve. As I understand it, there's also some issue whereby some sort of pelt processing happens in Europe now, regardless of where the animals are trapped.

Second, if you go back and read though Steve's posts on this board, he hasn't exactly made a secret of the fact that the ABs are priced the way that they are so that he doesn't get new orders. He doesn't want new orders because of the back log.

Third, Steve's hats are a luxury good. The car analogy is pretty apt. There's Honda and there's Rolls Royce. They both get you where you need to go, one is just nicer (and this is coming from someone who drives a Honda). But there IS a market out there that is willing to bear the cost of a $600+ hat. Custom western hats often exceed the cost of an AB. Optimo, whose felt hats start at $595 (and whose straw hats start at $395 and run to several thousands of dollars for the finest Panamas) has not only increased their prices twice in the past few years, but has opened a second physical storefront in Downtown Chicago. Paul's Hatworks here in San Francisco charges $650 for a custom beaver hat. The market for custom hats is small, but it's out there, and it's certainly large enough to bear the small number of hatters we are lucky enough to have.

So no, I don't think Steve's hats are overpriced.

I can see how one might make the case that there isn't that much value in Steve's hats so that they personally wouldn't pay that much for it - Heck, I wouldn't buy a Rolls Royce even if I did have the money - but that's also a personal choice.

I don't even have my AB yet (I'm on the list), but if you ask me if I regret spending the money for my Optimo Dillinger, the answer is no.

And I don't mean to ramble too much, but there is an Indy hat out there for everybody. Mr. Garrison is offering a very affordable custom hat. Akubra is a top notch value. Durability issues aside, I for one still think that the Christy's block makes quite a handsome hat (even if their ribbon work would use some improvement). Mr. Penman doesn't just make hats, he crafts them. I don't own one of Todd's hats, but there's plenty of positive things to be said. There's a hat out there for anybody at any price point.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:30 pm

Aragorn658 wrote:ok i have to admit that todds raiders was my last choice i really really wanted an adventurebilt but does anyone else think that they are just over priced? I mean really 600 dollars for a hat? Dont get me wrong most of todds items look really great, but i'm glad i'm still getting a fedora. i don't mean any disrespect to adventurebilt at all i understand people have to make a living but he has to be doing just fine, so i think a large price reduction would be in order.

If you held one in your hands you wouldn't say that. Nuff said.

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:10 pm

Aragorn658, I don't believe these responses were passive-aggressive man, but that's like my opinion.

Just know, you're more than welcome to stay and enjoy the place. Stuff like this comes up from time to time and thoughts are exchanged. Everyone has an opinion but sometimes facts trump even those. And some times facts are objective to personal opinion, it can be a vicious cycle.

And with that said we need to get back on topic, anyone got a good pic of Todd's hat with a bowling ball?

-TS

Indiana Bugs · Post by **Indiana Bugs** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:00 pm

I'd love to be able to get one of each of all these hats in one room to check them all out in person. That would be nirvana.

Sammy · Post by **Sammy** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:10 pm

Indiana Bugs wrote:I'd love to be able to get one of each of all these hats in one room to check them all out in person. That would be nirvana.

Funny, I was thinking kinda the same thing. Wouldn't it be cool (albeit kinda expensive I guess) to mail one of our hats all around to everyone interested?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:24 pm

Indiana Bugs wrote:I'd love to be able to get one of each of all these hats in one room to check them all out in person. That would be nirvana.

Yes....and no.

Some of us HAVE had that opportunity over the years, and believe me, if you had some of them side by side for comparison, you'd wonder how in the world some of them were able to get any sales at all, especially those that were in the same price range.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.....believe me. Let 'camp followers' be happy in their camp.....

Regards! Michaelson

Indiana Bugs · Post by **Indiana Bugs** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:51 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Indiana Bugs wrote:I'd love to be able to get one of each of all these hats in one room to check them all out in person. That would be nirvana.
Yes....and no.

Some of us HAVE had that opportunity over the years, and believe me, if you had some of them side by side for comparison, you'd wonder how in the world some of them were able to get any sales at all, especially those that were in the same price range.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.....believe me. Let 'camp followers' be happy in their camp.....

Regards! Michaelson

I see your point but that's the very reason I'd like to have them all in the same room. I want to see how they stack up to each other. I want to know which ones aren't worth a darn regardless of price. I want to see all the hats in my normal price range and see which one is best for me. The hats above my price range would be nice to see and handle, but I'm pretty disciplined when it comes to money.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:14 pm

Understood. Doing so would also help explain why folks who have done this HAVE gone with the higher priced fedoras made by the likes of Delk, Penman, and Kitter, among others.

Regards! Michaelson

youngjedi71 · Post by **youngjedi71** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:05 am

Aragorn658 wrote:ok i have to admit that todds raiders was my last choice i really really wanted an adventurebilt but does anyone else think that they are just over priced? I mean really 600 dollars for a hat? Dont get me wrong most of todds items look really great, but i'm glad i'm still getting a fedora. i don't mean any disrespect to adventurebilt at all i understand people have to make a living but he has to be doing just fine, so i think a large price reduction would be in order.

Well the thing is..Nobody is making you buy the higher priced hats. That is why there are cheaper choices. I was in the same boat as you a few months back. I bought a FedIV. It was 150$..money very well spent to me.BUT I wasnt totally happy with the color..SO,my next choice is to either deal with it, OR, buy another hat. SO I shopped between a lot of vendors.

MY pick was between AB and Penman..I chose AB "rabbit 320$" over the Penman mostly over the fact that Steve Delk made Harrison Fords hats in KOTCS. I wanted the guy who made Indys hat, to make mine. YEP..320$ is like 3000$ to me. Im poor. I had to save, sell off a lot of my things I had, but I made that choice. I could have bought an Indy jacket that I wanted, but felt the need to have THE HAT..by THE MAN that made Indys..It was MY choice to spend that $$..

You too have that choice. If you are going to wear it 3 or more days a week...its worth it.."i do"...if its something you will wear once in a while 2-5 times a month...then you might chose something less expensive.Its all in what YOU feel its worth.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:51 am

One also has to understand the dynamics of economy.

They run one-man-shops. If the price is low, they get slammed with orders.

That's the 'mistake' Steve Delk made at AB when he started out, then into the CS orders. He got absolutely buried with orders when his price was low, but his production time had not changed. He can only finish at best one or two hats a day in a 6 day week. On the 7th day he works on special orders.

Because he didn't realize what was happening at the time, he is literally years behind on his orders due to the fact he DIDN'T raise his prices in time to curb the incoming flood of orders which hit his website and mailbox.

By raising the price to where it is now, it slowed down the casual orders, and only appealed to the the serious buyer who had the funds to afford the price. Once orders are caught up, and if the craftsman is willing to re-open that floodgate, they can once again drop the price to a more affordable price if they so choose.

In most cases, it's simply to control the order numbers. Whipmakers use the same strategy.

It's easy to be critical of a price when one isn't aware of the dynamics behind one of the reasons such a price even exists.

Trying to compare prices of mass produced hats to 'one at a time' hand made custom hats is quite literally trying to compare apples to oranges and finding fault with the results! As Spock would say said, 'It's illogical!'

All that said, let's get this conversation back to the subject topic, Todd's fedora, if you please.

Regards! Michaelson

TK5759 · Post by **TK5759** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:05 pm

I've been a Raider owner for over a month (and while I still have yet to take a good picture of it) I have to say that I'm absolutely 100% in love with it. Its a large improvement over the Downtowner which I also own. As for the quality and price you can't go wrong. I've worn it in rain and snow and its darn near indestructible. I can't say enough good things about Todd's overall level of customer service either. Purchase what you will as I'm sure the other gentlemen on this forum are stand-up guys but you caarn't go wrong with Todd's Raider.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:56 pm

Glad to hear that it's holding up, but the real test is the test of time.

Indiana Blooze · Post by **Indiana Blooze** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:37 pm

Michaelson wrote:One also has to understand the dynamics of economy.

They run one-man-shops. If the price is low, they get slammed with orders.

That's the 'mistake' Steve Delk made at AB when he started out, then into the CS orders. He got absolutely buried with orders when his price was low, but his production time had not changed. He can only finish at best one or two hats a day in a 6 day week. On the 7th day he works on special orders.

Because he didn't realize what was happening at the time, he is literally years behind on his orders due to the fact he DIDN'T raise his prices in time to curb the incoming flood of orders which hit his website and mailbox.

By raising the price to where it is now, it slowed down the casual orders, and only appealed to the the serious buyer who had the funds to afford the price. Once orders are caught up, and if the craftsman is willing to re-open that floodgate, they can once again drop the price to a more affordable price if they so choose.

In most cases, it's simply to control the order numbers. Whipmakers use the same strategy.

It's easy to be critical of a price when one isn't aware of the dynamics behind one of the reasons such a price even exists.

Trying to compare prices of mass produced hats to 'one at a time' hand made custom hats is quite literally trying to compare apples to oranges and finding fault with the results! As Spock would say said, 'It's illogical!'

All that said, let's get this conversation back to the subject topic, Todd's fedora, if you please.

Regards! Michaelson

Wow!! That's probably the best explanation of why the AB's, ABD's, and the Penman's have the prices that they do. Maybe the meat of the post could be turned into a "Why Does That Hat Cost So Much?" sticky.

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:07 pm

First Id like to apologize I didn't mean to offend, I've just had my first born and it's just been quite hard and work hasn't helped my company got bought out its it's been horrible. But on a lighter note I got my Raiders fedora and Indy satchel today! WOOT! And I own 3 bowler hats and its really really different wearing a fedora. But I do have just a few questions, does anyone have trouble getting the crown straight or how to curl the sides I'm going for a KOTCS bash and I cant get the bash even or straight. Some help would be great dudes

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:44 pm

The best way to get the bash straight is to shape the front while looking in a mirror. People's faces are not usually "on center" so look in the mirror and find the centerline of the hat and put a light pinch in it. Take the hat off and put in a crease as close to the center as you can and align it with your front "personal" centerline. Look at it every way you can, and in a mirror, to see if it looks like the crease is centered. Remember - it may not be down the center of the hat - it will be your "personal" center.

Regarding putting extra curl in the brim, that's hard to do without a flange, but you can do it by hand with some steam and careful stretching along the length of the brim. Not too much steam or you'll end up with a mess.

Another trick I've done to restore some brims damaged by too much steam and fussing is to use a deep pot, roll up some towels and drape them around the rim. Put the hat upside down in the pot, laying the brim on the towels. Use a steam iron the press the brim on the circular towel. You can put curl in the brim where you want it. Just go easy until you get the feel for it. It worked really well for me.

Other than that, just keep pushing the sides up. Eventually, they'll get the idea.

-Todd

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:52 pm

Indiana Blooze wrote:
Michaelson wrote:One also has to understand the dynamics of economy.

They run one-man-shops. If the price is low, they get slammed with orders.

That's the 'mistake' Steve Delk made at AB when he started out, then into the CS orders. He got absolutely buried with orders when his price was low, but his production time had not changed. He can only finish at best one or two hats a day in a 6 day week. On the 7th day he works on special orders.

Because he didn't realize what was happening at the time, he is literally years behind on his orders due to the fact he DIDN'T raise his prices in time to curb the incoming flood of orders which hit his website and mailbox.

By raising the price to where it is now, it slowed down the casual orders, and only appealed to the
the serious buyer who had the funds to afford the price. Once orders are caught up, and if the craftsman is willing to re-open that floodgate, they can once again drop the price to a more affordable price if they so choose.

In most cases, it's simply to control the order numbers. Whipmakers use the same strategy.

It's easy to be critical of a price when one isn't aware of the dynamics behind one of the reasons such a price even exists.

Trying to compare prices of mass produced hats to 'one at a time' hand made custom hats is quite literally trying to compare apples to oranges and finding fault with the results! As Spock would say said, 'It's illogical!'

All that said, let's get this conversation back to the subject topic, Todd's fedora, if you please.

Regards! Michaelson
Wow!! That's probably the best explanation of why the AB's, ABD's, and the Penman's have the prices that they do. Maybe the meat of the post could be turned into a "Why Does That Hat Cost So Much?" sticky.

I'm sorry to disagree. steve's hats are worth what he is asking now. Heck they are worth more then he is asking. If you go outside of the Indy world you would find hats not even close to the quality that Steve provides and more then his asking price now. He gave away his hats at the old price. He is just now getting somewhere near what they are worth. There are hatters out there and hat shops making hats charging more then Steve and they couldn't make a hat no where near what the man can do.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:54 pm

Sorry Todd, I just had to make something clear.

Do we all know how lucky we all are as Indy fans. We have gear for everyones budget. We didnt have that not to long ago.

Please let's see more pics of Todd's hats.

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:00 pm

Lovely todd, expect more orders soon! Actually i had a blast using the fullers earth (i think thats the name) on the ribbon and crown making it look like i just walked out of a dig!

TK5759 · Post by **TK5759** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:15 pm

Here's a few for your viewing pleasure. Please note, I'm not into glitter, I just came in out of the MN rain.

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:57 pm

... MN rain?!??! Where in MN???? I'm right in the Twin Cities!

Sammy · Post by **Sammy** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:12 am

I don't know about you all....but never get tired of watching how hats are made. Just watched How It's Made and they showed how bowlers and top hats are made. Cool stuff!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:07 am

BendingOak wrote:I'm sorry to disagree. steve's hats are worth what he is asking now. Heck they are worth more then he is asking. If you go outside of the Indy world you would find hats not even close to the quality that Steve provides and more then his asking price now. He gave away his hats at the old price. He is just now getting somewhere near what they are worth. There are hatters out there and hat shops making hats charging more then Steve and they couldn't make a hat no where near what the man can do.

Ironically, Steve himself would disagree with YOU, but then, that's the kind of man he is. Humble.

Anyway, back to Todd's!

Regards! Michaelson

indyhan · Post by **indyhan** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:11 am

Puppetboy wrote:The best way to get the bash straight is to shape the front while looking in a mirror. People's faces are not usually "on center" so look in the mirror and find the centerline of the hat and put a light pinch in it. Take the hat off and put in a crease as close to the center as you can and align it with your front "personal" centerline. Look at it every way you can, and in a mirror, to see if it looks like the crease is centered. Remember - it may not be down the center of the hat - it will be your "personal" center.

Regarding putting extra curl in the brim, that's hard to do without a flange, but you can do it by hand with some steam and careful stretching along the length of the brim. Not too much steam or you'll end up with a mess.

Another trick I've done to restore some brims damaged by too much steam and fussing is to use a deep pot, roll up some towels and drape them around the rim. Put the hat upside down in the pot, laying the brim on the towels. Use a steam iron the press the brim on the circular towel. You can put curl in the brim where you want it. Just go easy until you get the feel for it. It worked really well for me.

Other than that, just keep pushing the sides up. Eventually, they'll get the idea.

-Todd

...or you could have the fine people at todd's shape the hat for you.

speaking of which : is the bash you offer with or without the infamous raiders turn ?

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:28 am

another weird thing is i sized my hat at 58 1/2 and i got the 58 raider and its actually a little big. super weird but i took some tissue paper and lined the sides and it fits better now but what else can i do

TK5759 · Post by **TK5759** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:43 am

Aragorn658 wrote:another weird thing is i sized my hat at 58 1/2 and i got the 58 raider and its actually a little big. super weird but i took some tissue paper and lined the sides and it fits better now but what else can i do

Wear it a whole lot!

. Break that sucker in!

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:02 am

so ok, the more i wear my fedora it will...conform to my head better? haha, so they shrink slightly?

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:24 pm

so they shrink slightly?

Actually, yeah. How much or how fast varies a great deal.

is the bash you offer with or without the infamous raiders turn ?

No turn. If you want it, you really have to style it on your own head.

-Todd

TK5759 · Post by **TK5759** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:54 pm

At first mine felt really losses on my nugget. After a couple weeks it started breaking in with daily use and handling. Now it feels like I've worn it for years.

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:48 pm

photobucket arggghhh!

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:50 pm

well @#$% i didn't know they would be so big.

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nicetrylaoche · Post by **nicetrylaoche** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:04 pm

That's a great lookin' lid! Did you crease it yourself?

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:06 pm

yes actually...well thanks to penman. I also tried to wear it and sweat in it as much as i could. I guess it goes with my blue indy shirt

Aragorn658 · Post by **Aragorn658** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:37 am

i actually feel like the hat looks to big for my head haha

MS Jones · Post by **MS Jones** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:54 am

I have to get one of these. My lid is the Coyle's Downtowner, completely reworked by me. I posted a thread almost a year ago about the method I used in reworking this great hat. You can read that thread here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52927

This is the hat that I wear every day. Here are some shots taken today, almost a year later.

And one taken indoors in the bathroom mirror.

If you read the original thread, you will see that this hat was made on a dome block. The new "Raiders" hat seems to be made on a more flat - top block. This should lend itself well to the classic stove pipe straight shape. If you look closely, you will see a fair amount of taper in the downtowner, bringing it in line with a TOD hat with a taller crown. I'm still in love with the Todd's hat, having made it my own, and will definitely be ordering the Raiders soon. I was psyched when I came across this thread on tapatalk. I have been out of touch all winter, but summer is coming (already here in South Mississippi) and its time to gear up and hit the trails, creeks, and wilderness areas here for some adventure. Cheers.