Do The Movie Whip's Handles Taper out At The Keeper End?

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:00 am

Maybe this has been discussed before. I'm a newbie here.

I used to think that some of the TOD screen used bullwhips tapered up slightly at the end of the handle but that ROTLA and LC were typically untapered. Now I'm not sure that any of them taper at all.

Yet I've been reading with interest on here a few days and it seems there's some support the idea that they all taper at least somewhat. I'm wondering what that's based on? Knowledge of construction, screen shots, or measurements taken from actual screen used whips? I got my idea about the TOD whip tapering from a photograph in which the whip is in motion, and from the popularity of the concept.

I now have a DVD player with a zoom function and it's been fun doing some fresh research for old times sake, as I've been introducing my almost 3 year old son to the Indy movies. I've learned a few things watching the movies and it's been fun to get back into this aspect of things. I noticed the wire holding up the wrist strap in the Well of Souls fire scene for the first time just the other day. Very funny! And the extra strand of leather hanging off the end of the wrist strap in the "bad dates" scene. I can't believe I never noticed that one before. Back in the day before the internet was popular, I was using VHS on pause to do my study of this subject, so I guess I would have possibly missed a lot.

Anyway, any opinions? And what based on?

Benjamin Scott

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:45 am

Good to see you here Bejamin! It was pics of your whips that really inspired me in my own whipmaking and you wrote me some very helpful and encouraging emails when I started out, for which I was very grateful.

As for the movie whips - personally I don't think there's much difference between Raiders and TOD other than the latter being darker looking, which I believe is because the costume department dyed them to look older. The screen used whip that has been posted here before didin't look to have a tapered handle. I think that idea comes from the pic of Indy hanging on the broken rope bridge, in which the light / motion /foreshortening makes the handle of the whip seem tapered.
The LC whips differ in as much as by this point Morgan's whips were somethat thicker and the handle slightly shorter - although not as short and thick as they would be come later.

Apart from the fact that I only very rarely take an order for a bullwhip these days, I've really stopped making "Raiders" whips or "LC" whips. Rather I just make Indy style whips according to my own aesthetics - and mine vary in dimension and appearance, just as Morgan's did. I just finished a 10ft in natural tan yesterday - perhaps I'll post a pic.

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:21 am

I agree with Whiskyman, the only scene when whip's handle SEEMS to be tapered is when Indy is hanging on the bridge. I went through all screen grabs and pics of Temple of Doom whips and they are straight handled, but the handle seems to be a bit longer than in Raiders.
LC whip were also straight handled, obviously not thick and short handled like DM makes the since 90's.

BTW, your whips are perfect Ben, turksheads knots have the best shape, they really look like screen used whips. I love them, congrats to you

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:54 am

I'm not that focussed on the whips, but loved Marc's DM that I tried out a few years ago, it has a nice slightly tapered handle and felt very well balanced to my inexperienced hands. I don't know if it was tapered by request or that it was the particular vintage.

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:22 am

Do you have a photo of that whip? The only one Morgan bullwhip with tapered handle I found is this one:

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 am

Sadly I think I lost the pics in an email purge. It did look a lot like that one.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:47 am

Here's a good screenshot from TOD, as you can see, about the second half of the handle tapers, while the first half looks pretty

straight:

First the whole page:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Now the whip close up:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

edit: about TLC, I make TLC whips two ways. One, is similar to TOD in that the handle tapers for the second half, the only

difference is that I make them thicker than the TOD whips. The other type, I make where the handle doesn't taper at all, but

there is a sudden jump in thickness under the transition knot.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:50 am

Hmmm still not convinced I can see a taper.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:29 pm

whiskyman wrote:Hmmm still not convinced I can see a taper.

If you had the book in front of you, you could see the taper. My photography skills aren't awesome...

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:13 pm

I was under the impression that the whips used in TOD were pretty much those used in Raiders, or very close to them in style. I have often wondered at this notion of tapering handles on TOD whips. I don't have a strong opinion on it, I just never really noticed.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:12 pm

Canuck Digger wrote:I was under the impression that the whips used in TOD were pretty much those used in Raiders, or very close to them in style. I have often wondered at this notion of tapering handles on TOD whips. I don't have a strong opinion on it, I just never really noticed.

I suppose one reason why a lot of people continue tapering "TOD" handles is to have some sort of difference between all the

movies, just to have some variety.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:46 pm

Ben, I’ve been fortunate to see several of the film used Indy whips in person and a number of others in confidential photos from owners & collectors, etc. that unfortunately I don’t have permission to repost. What I’ve found is that taper seen in the handle, has more to do with the way the individual whip was constructed rather then which movie it was made for or used in. Some of the bullwhips used in the films do have slight curve or taper in the handle. In some cases it’s only noticeable on one side of the handle so it just depends on what angle your looking at the whip from as to whether or not you see it. As far as I can tell though the taper seems a bit more prevalent in the Temple of Doom whips, but it’s not exclusive to them and many other whips made for and used in the same film had handles that are just as straight as you would typically expect a David Morgan bullwhip handle to be.

A big part of it was David was just making whips, he had his guidelines he followed but he wasn’t making them to any exact rigid specifications. So while his whips are all similar, rarely if ever do you see two David Morgan bullwhips that are identical (at least to a trained eye), that seems to hold true with the Indy movie whips. More often then not there are variations in each whip, some are subtle; others much more noticeable but included the shape of the handle, whether straight or slightly tapered. It also includes the thickness of the handles, the exact shape and placements of the knots, if the divot above the turkshead is exposed, How many squares are in the checkered diamond plaiting, the width of the strands cut in the set, etc. it all seems to vary a bit from whip to whip.

The bullwhip in the photo Tomek posted, If memory serves; was a special order placed back when David still offered that as an option. It was requested that the handle taper and the knot be placed higher up on the handle to better mimic the older style Morgan’s. In my opinion thought it’s grossly exaggerated in comparison to any of the film whips that I’ve seen.

As for screen captures, while they provide a fun reference and can be helpful; I’ve learned not always trust them when it comes to those kinds of details. I’ve handled many whips used in TV and film. There are just too many elements like lighting, shadow, angle; lens width etc, that can deceptively alter them enough; that it's not uncommon for them to look a bit different in person then they did on the screen.

Dan

Canuck Digger · Post by **Canuck Digger** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:10 pm

Thanks for the informed perspective Dan!

Franco

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:39 am

BullWhipBorton wrote:In some cases it’s only noticeable on one side of the handle so it just depends on what angle your looking at the whip

Hmm, thatis just weird

I agree with Riku, we have 3 different jackets (I mean in the trilogy), 3 hats, 3 shirts, 3 straps, 3 pair of pants so why not to have 3 different style of bullwhips.

Marhala · Post by **Marhala** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:00 am

tomek9210 wrote:
BullWhipBorton wrote:In some cases it’s only noticeable on one side of the handle so it just depends on what angle your looking at the whip
Hmm, thatis just weird

I agree with Riku, we have 3 different jackets (I mean in the trilogy), 3 hats, 3 shirts, 3 straps, 3 pair of pants so why not to have 3 different style of bullwhips.

Right. I have a Morgan whip from 1998, and the upper part of the handle is a bit oval shaped. That confirms what Dan wrote about the angle you're looking at the whip. You can feel it and see it.

Aldo.

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:12 am

Thanks gentlemen. You're awesome. Excellent and informative replies.

I will definitely trust Dan's judgment with being able to measure a number of original screen whips. It doesn't get better than that!! What an awesome experience!

Like whiskeyman, I have sort of stylized my interpretations of the whips. As I say on my website, I don't make replicas. It seems in recent times that various whipmakers are all converging on one look, which is getting amazingly close to the look seen in the movies, and it's getting harder to tell the difference between one whipmaker's work and another, since many, not all distinctive characteristics have been eliminated in the process.

But as much as I have my own sense of aesthetics when it comes to whipmaking, at the same time, I have never been able to get past the passion for that certain something I see in the movie whips. Indy's whips just tend to look right. I think I always find them startlingly thin and lightweight, and whenever I make a whip I just can't go there 100%, but I like them in the movies.

I'm honored by the praise of my work. I focus on what I think looks and performs good, but it's always slowly evolving as well. Ironically I use a totally different foundation for my bullwhips than Morgan or anyone else does. It's partly my relative ignorance of true Morgan construction that makes the taper issue a bit of a mystery to me. I can tell his knobs are sometimes not at all uniform in dimensions from all sides. It appears now that some of the handles are the same way. Those aren't aspects I've cared to try to reproduce myself, but maybe they are partly what produces that illusive magic on the big screen. It sort of goes with my childhood thoughts of bullwhips in general. A rare and mysteriously beautiful and powerful, foreign object, but who's useage, function, balance, and shape, you don't quite understand. What I'm describing was even more deeply ingrained in me when I found Morgan's 1st edition Whips and Whipmaking at the library and opened to the front plate to look at Henderson's 36 plait 12' bullwhip. I knew instantly I was hooked. Have been ever since.

Benjamin

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:10 am

Glad to be able to offer some additional insight.

Tomek, the more closely you look at the Indy film whips or even just at Morgan whips in general (especially older ones) close up, you'll notice that they can sometimes be a lil bit weird. I don’t think its any secret that these whip were never meant to be pretty. They aren’t fancy show whips, They are built to work, be rugged, sturdy and handle well; which they are and do. It’s not uncommon though for them to have what many would consider to be imperfections, as Aldo pointed out. They don’t negatively affect the way the whips perform but they are there more often then not. For me, I think that is part of their charm and character.

I'm no stranger to many whips made by many makers, but the Morgan’s will always be extra special to me. There’s just something about them (warts and all). Other whip makers today make excellent Indy style bullwhips, many are very well made, beautifully plaited and perform great but in my opinion it's rare for them to really capture that essence and look of the original film whips. Granted maybe I’ve been looking at these things too closely, for too long

so my expectations could be a bit more rigid. I think part of that though is because they don’t have those characteristic imperfections, even though from a whip making/whip cracking stand point that’s a good thing.

Ben, I know Cecil Henderson’s work well; you have good taste.

Dan

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:44 am

Thanks Dan for explanation, I got it now. It's similiar thing with Raiders jacket. All the flaws, like off the shoulders look, gaps and other irregularities are something we love and chase since '81.

Ben, I'm looking forward for pics of your new whips!

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:14 pm

Speaking of Henderson's work. This one's posted on the web already but it's too big on the size requirements to post here, so here's a link instead. One of my big challenges living up here in the boonies is that I only have dial-up internet. I have to crack my bullwhip to make the uploads go faster.

http://slinging.org/forum/yabbfiles/Att ... 04671s.JPG

I like to use these for the type of whipcracking you'd normally do with a well balanced stockwhip. Changing planes volleys and other single handed stuff where a long fast whip looks fantastic. These are my favorite whips to use and perform with for multiple cracking and target work. Lots of fun. This one's 24 plait, 8 plait point, so very durable as well. In April I'm performing at the library for some children. One thing I like to do after making some noise first, is to tie a small piece of plastic bag to the cracker as a flag, and give a visual demonstration of the 4 corners and some other maneuvers. It looks fantastic.

Ben

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:29 am

Looks good Ben, beautiful taper, very clean plaiting and I like the detailed work done on the handle. It’s been a few years since I’ve seen one of your whips in person, it was an Indy style; I liked it.

Here’s a couple quick photos I think you’ll appreciate,

Myself, John Leonetti, Paul Nolan having a look at the Hendersons whips from Ed Cooleys collection before they were sold off.

A couple of them where featured in Davids book, Whips and WhipMaking.

Dan

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:49 pm

Dan,

Thanks for posting those. Paul knows I'm a huge Henderson fan and so he generously sent me some pictures of the collection, but I haven't seen these pictures before. That bullwhip John's holding is simply huge!! I love the stockwhip you're holding there too. What a beaut! What a find to dig up Cooley's family like that and get a hold of those whips.

I'm glad you like the bullwhip pic I posted. It's considerably lighter in weight than the work Henderson did for Cooley but definitely inspired by Henderson.

Ben

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:14 pm

No problem, Paul and I have been comparing notes on Henderson & his whips for years, it’s a big part of how we first struck up a friendship. He and John documented and photographed this collection pretty extensively, but these were a couple of the candid shots taken with my camera. The one I’m holding was my favorite of the bunch. We did joke about that bullwhip, it was huge and very heavy giving Terry Jacka’s Indy 4 bullwhips a run for the money.

Paul has probably filled you in more detail on how these whips handle, they are typically heavier with a more on the sluggish action especially if you compare them to today’s trend in whips which are more often geared towards sport routines & competition work. Still a piece of whip making history and a real pleasure to handle and crack. I can certainly see his inspiration in your work; looks like you might have been influenced a bit by Chris Barr as well.

Best.

Dan

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:16 pm

Dan,

It's definitely a compliment to say it looks like Chris Barr has influenced my work. His work is amazing, thanks. I have a day job, so I don't get the chance to do as much whipmaking as I'd like. Most of my orders are for 12 plait Indy bullwhips. As I get orders for the other stuff I get more pictures I can share.

Most of Henderson's work for Cooley is quite heavy but it seems that may have been Cooley's taste, no? The stockwhips used by Fairbanks in Don Q. are lightweight. I prefer a lighter whip for multiple cracking. Actually that two tone bullwhip in the picture only weighs 15 oz. It's 8', but it cracks as loud as a much heavier whip. It's my favorite type to work with.

Ben

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:06 am

Some of the henderson stockwhips I've seen seem unusually thick in the thong, at least compared to today's whips. I may be totally off but that's how it appears on my screen.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:14 am

Ben, if I ever order a whip from you it would likely be an Australian model

. I’d agree, in my opinion a lighter whip; providing it has a good balance/action is a better suited, more comfortable choice for multiple cracking.

I’ve been trying to track down the original Don Q stockwhips for years with little luck. The source material I've found though that actually shows those whips in detail makes it tough to say for sure just how light or heavy the were. Based on the variety in Henderson’s work (primarily his stock whips, as I just haven’t personally seen many of his bullwhips) I suspect he was just making more robust whips compared to what we’re used to seeing today. Even the lighter weight examples seemed weightier in comparison to someone like Chris Barr, Bill Glasgow or Mike Murphys modern work. Did Cooley have a taste for heavier whips? Possible, but I don’t recall reading anything like that in the original correspondence letters between the he and Cecil that would lead me to believe he was requesting heavier whips. There were discussions (in the letters I shared with Paul Nolan, which he later posted publically on the APWA forum) about weighting in which Henderson mentioned his preference in naturally weighted whips, not liking shot loading (despite some of them being shot loaded) but if needed he would could make heavier falling whips with out shot loading. In a number of other surviving Henderson whips I’ve had a look at, out side of the Cooley collection they seem share similar weight/dimensions; so weight wise i don’t think they were really anything out of the ordinary for Henderson’s work.

Riku, I suspect part of what your noticing is a prominent swing belly in his stock whips, which does add mass to the thong.

Dan

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:21 pm

BullWhipBorton wrote:Ben, if I ever order a whip from you it would likely be an Australian model . I’d agree, in my opinion a lighter whip; providing it has a good balance/action is a better suited, more comfortable choice for multiple cracking.

I’ve been trying to track down the original Don Q stockwhips for years with little luck. The source material I've found though that actually shows those whips in detail makes it tough to say for sure just how light or heavy the were. Based on the variety in Henderson’s work (primarily his stock whips, as I just haven’t personally seen many of his bullwhips) I suspect he was just making more robust whips compared to what we’re used to seeing today. Even the lighter weight examples seemed weightier in comparison to someone like Chris Barr, Bill Glasgow or Mike Murphys modern work. Did Cooley have a taste for heavier whips? Possible, but I don’t recall reading anything like that in the original correspondence letters between the he and Cecil that would lead me to believe he was requesting heavier whips. There were discussions (in the letters I shared with Paul Nolan, which he later posted publically on the APWA forum) about weighting in which Henderson mentioned his preference in naturally weighted whips, not liking shot loading (despite some of them being shot loaded) but if needed he would could make heavier falling whips with out shot loading. In a number of other surviving Henderson whips I’ve had a look at, out side of the Cooley collection they seem share similar weight/dimensions; so weight wise i don’t think they were really anything out of the ordinary for Henderson’s work.

Riku, I suspect part of what your noticing is a prominent swing belly in his stock whips, which does add mass to the thong.

Dan

I don't think it's that, yes with the swing it can make the rest look thicker, but considering stockwhips today seem to be made

in the 15mm thickness area,, those whips ( again appear on my screen ) to be fairly thick.

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:39 pm

Dan,

I'm enjoying the discussion about Henderson. Perhaps you're right about Henderson's work being heavy. They certainly look aesthetic that way; I'm just not going to copy him on that level because I don't like the way heavy whips handle and that's important to me. But I love the look of those big thick thongs and tiny points, even if I can't go there myself. The whips used in Don Q appear quite light weight to me, watching Fairbanks with them. But it's definitely not easy to tell. If you have any source material with closer pictures of those whips used in Don Q. I'd absolutely love it if you'd post them or send them to me.

The reference you make to Henderson saying he prefers naturally weighted whips to loaded ones because the loaded ones fall too short, and that he can make a naturally weighted whip crack loudly without lead loading, is what I was refering to when I suggested maybe Cooley liked heavy whips. It's certainly not definitive, but it suggested to me that Cooley did lay some things out for him as far as requests go. How about the single diamond idea? Yikes. I'm glad nobody asked me for that one yet. He charged for it big time!!

Ben

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:49 am

Ben,

I’m probably setting a bad example as a moderator for letting this thread go so far off the original topic

but I get carried away when talking whips. Especially with those who understand them in greater detail and who can appreciate the history behind them and workmanship involved in making them. Now as much as I appreciate a good replica whip (and at some point have every intention of having Paul make me a copy of that 9ft Henderson stock whip with the 36 plait handle) I think it’s equally, if not more important for a whip maker to also be able to make the kinds of whips they like to make and that type they feel works best; that work pushes them to constantly improve their skill. Of course just as long as they are still willing to make me the kind of whips I like too if our tastes differ

Douglas Fairbanks handled those whips very well in Don Q and made it look easy. Given those whips where made much earlier on in Henderson’s career, and that an Australian trained Fairbanks, they could have been lighter. Whips change, I don’t know any whip maker who makes the exact same whips today, that they did 20 or 30 years ago so that probably held true with Henderson as well. There was definitely a preference towards heavier whips in the American market compared to what was being typically produced in the Australian trade and Henderson was corresponding with other whip crackers and performers in the U.S.. Though I’m just speculating, its very possibly that had influenced Henderson’s work to some extent later in his career. They really do taper down to a very fine point though, I was amazed the first time I had one in my hands at just how narrow it ended. Now if only those prices still applied today!

Since you’ve corresponded with Paul on Hendersons work, it’s possible you have all the stuff I originally sent to him on the Don Q whips. It included a number of articles on Fairbanks learning to crack the whip for the film and several production stills/promo photos that prominently featured his stock whip . I think I may have posted one or two of them here and they've since made their way around the web but If that doesn’t sound familiar let me know.

Riku, if you took 10 modern stock whips, made by 10 different whip makers (even some by the same whip maker) and set them all next to each other I think you’d see significant discrepancy in that 15 mm thickness.

ATB,

Dan

Marhala · Post by **Marhala** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:32 am

BullWhipBorton wrote:Ben,

I’m probably setting a bad example as a moderator for letting this thread go so far off the original topic but I get carried away when talking whips.

As long as the thread contains such interesting information, fine with me! If it's fine with the author, all the more! Hi Ben!

Aldo.

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:11 pm

Author doesn't mind (grin).

Hey Aldo, Hope you're still working on that whipmaking! Hope the earthquake wasn't too bad down there. I just heard about it.

Dan,

I think your speculations are about as accurate as we can ascertain. If you have the Kino version of Don Q. they have a bit of additional footage where Fairbanks is cracking a Henderson stockwhip and it just looks really light weight in his athletic hands. Anything looks light as a feather the moment it gets around that man though! I didn't know he was trained by an Australian!

I really like the look of Henderson's fine points but I can't quite bring myself to go there. I agree that it is surprising how small they are. I first took measurements of them back in the day before internet, by blowing up the plate in Morgan's book on a photcopier, taking measurements and doing conversions to bring the total length to about 12'. I measured them to less than 3/16" but couldn't solidly believe my own figures at the time because that's just so small. But Paul confirmed that fact to me later as well. John Brady's whips also have small points.

Henderson's falls seem generally short. I prefer to bring the point down to around 7/32nds or a bit more, and make a longer fall do the rest of the work on a whip of this style. If I wasn't doing that, I'd lengthen my whips by about 1' and put shorter falls on them to get a similar feel. Why make the point do it when the fall can? I've tried both ways though.

Paul sent me a lot of stuff but I don't recall anything specifically about Fairbanks. I have the article from People Magazine and The Sunday Herald.

Paul does excellent replicas of Henderson's work! I've enjoyed corresponding with him on the subject. He's a great whipmaker and a great guy with apparently a lot of patience!! More than 24 plait and I get dizzy. I'm getting the near sighted thing if I do too much at once as well.

To semi get back on subject about tapered handles, I have looked carefully at that Henderson 12' bullwhip and it seems to taper more on one side of the handle than the other. Paul and I were speculating that perhaps it was carved to shape. The taper starts out quickly on it as well making its start prominent. I wonder what foundation Henderson used? I love the proportions. They are just right.

Ben

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:56 pm

Thanks Aldo, glad you’re finding the conversation interesting.

Ben, I’ve seen the extra footage. It says a lot that Douglas Fairbanks took the time and effort to actually become proficient with the whip for his role. Fairbanks was trained by Rex “Snowy” Baker who was an interesting character in his own right. An Olympic boxer considered one of Australia's great athletes, who came to the U.S. to work in Hollywood. He starred in a number of films but was also a horse trainer, whip expert and stunt person, friends with Will Rodgers (who also used Henderson whips) and as mentioned trained Fairbanks Sr. along with the likes of Tim McCoy and later Lash LaRue etc.

Though I didn’t take measurements on then Henderson falls, they seemed an average length and fit the whips. Some of them were a bit shorter and showed alot of wear form use. It would have been interesting to see one on a new whip at the time, and how it would have compared. Personally, I tend to prefer a longer, well-tapered fall myself, but it also depends on the whip.

On the topic of points, The points on the Henderson whips are probably the smallest, neatest I’ve seen. I’ve noticed and am guessing you have too that many of the reputable Australian whip makers tend bring the ends of their whips in a very fine points with a matching hitch. They are not quite to the extreme of Henderson’s, but yes the John Brady whips that Russell Shultz makes are like that. So are Mike Murhpys who’s fall hitch knot is the roughly length of a U.S. Dime and about half the width. Compared to the Indy bullwhips or many other U.S. made bullwhips, that’s pretty tiny.

Agree with every thing you said about Paul. He’s extremely patient, talented and very generous. He mixes a mean drink too. It sounds like I may have some material you haven’t seen before; I’ll see what I can put together for you.

Tohiti cane seemed to be the popular choice for his stockwhip handles, He mentioned using steel lined cane and shaving down the handles to shape them. I suspect he was doing the same thing with his bullwhips but since we cant see under the leather its hard to say for sure. He did mention having access to nylon rods in his correspondence with Cooley and that though it looked bit thin, seemed promising. He also went on though to suggest it would be too costly to use in whips with any frequency. I’d love to run some of those whips under an x-ray machine though to get a better idea of what is inside them.

Dan

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:31 pm

BullWhipBorton wrote:Thanks Aldo, glad you’re finding the conversation interesting.

Ben, I’ve seen the extra footage. It says a lot that Douglas Fairbanks took the time and effort to actually become proficient with the whip for his role. Fairbanks was trained by Rex “Snowy” Baker who was an interesting character in his own right. An Olympic boxer considered one of Australia's great athletes, who came to the U.S. to work in Hollywood. He starred in a number of films but was also a horse trainer, whip expert and stunt person, friends with Will Rodgers (who also used Henderson whips) and as mentioned trained Fairbanks Sr. along with the likes of Tim McCoy and later Lash LaRue etc.

Though I didn’t take measurements on then Henderson falls, they seemed an average length and fit the whips. Some of them were a bit shorter and showed alot of wear form use. It would have been interesting to see one on a new whip at the time, and how it would have compared. Personally, I tend to prefer a longer, well-tapered fall myself, but it also depends on the whip.

On the topic of points, The points on the Henderson whips are probably the smallest, neatest I’ve seen. I’ve noticed and am guessing you have too that many of the reputable Australian whip makers tend bring the ends of their whips in a very fine points with a matching hitch. They are not quite to the extreme of Henderson’s, but yes the John Brady whips that Russell Shultz makes are like that. So are Mike Murhpys who’s fall hitch knot is the roughly length of a U.S. Dime and about half the width. Compared to the Indy bullwhips or many other U.S. made bullwhips, that’s pretty tiny.

Agree with every thing you said about Paul. He’s extremely patient, talented and very generous. He mixes a mean drink too. It sounds like I may have some material you haven’t seen before; I’ll see what I can put together for you.

Tohiti cane seemed to be the popular choice for his stockwhip handles, He mentioned using steel lined cane and shaving down the handles to shape them. I suspect he was doing the same thing with his bullwhips but since we cant see under the leather its hard to say for sure. He did mention having access to nylon rods in his correspondence with Cooley and that though it looked bit thin, seemed promising. He also went on though to suggest it would be too costly to use in whips with any frequency. I’d love to run some of those whips under an x-ray machine though to get a better idea of what is inside them.

Dan

Could you say what the point was in millimeters? All the parts of my whips that aren't the lengths, I measure in metric system.

It's much easier to keep track of things like 7mm , 10mm , etc. than something like .48925 "

The smallest point I've even considered making was 5mm, and that's on stockwhips. I'm just curious how small he actually

made them!

I thought the same thing reading your post, about the xray machine. Short of taking the things apart ( and who in their right

mind, wait, even somebody in their wrong mind wouldn't do that ! ) I think that's the only way you'll know what's inside.

I too am enjoying the conversation. I've always thought the whips were very interesting, and I've read a few of the articles

Paul posted on the AWPA. I don't know nearly as much as you guys do about it, but I'm always open to learning more about

whips, whip making, and the history of both

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Snowy Baker sounds really familiar. I believe Paul told me this and I had just forgotten. As far as Will Rodgers, I was told by my Grandfather that my Great Grandfather James Scott and Will Rodgers were good friends. I guess my Great Grandfather had some sort of connections because I have a picture above my computer of him sitting on his horse King, which he sold to Leo Carillo June 1935. It's the only thing I have from him but I treasure it. Beautiful Horse!! As far as Will goes though, I guess there was never a man he met he didn't like, eh? I wonder if my Great Grandfather ever came into contact with a Henderson whip. I'd love to think so whether it ever happened or not. Simpler times.

As far as points go, speaking of actual measurements, I taper down to about the size Murphy uses. On Aussie bullwhips using metric measurement, I finish at about 6mm. On American bullwhips I go quite a bit larger than that at about 8mm. I believe Henderson is under 5mm from what I remember corresponding with Paul. Dan or Paul might know the exact. I'm trying to recall whether Henderson used 8 plait on all his points or whether he went down to 6.

I'd bargain that he used hand carved cane for his foundations when he was going for a taper. We do need an x-ray, but on the whip in Morgan's book, the keeper leans as if the foundation is failing some. Same problem most bullwhips have. Beautiful whip though!

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:25 am

Whipartist wrote:Snowy Baker sounds really familiar. I believe Paul told me this and I had just forgotten. As far as Will Rodgers, I was told by my Grandfather that my Great Grandfather James Scott and Will Rodgers were good friends. I guess my Great Grandfather had some sort of connections because I have a picture above my computer of him sitting on his horse King, which he sold to Leo Carillo June 1935. It's the only thing I have from him but I treasure it. Beautiful Horse!! As far as Will goes though, I guess there was never a man he met he didn't like, eh? I wonder if my Great Grandfather ever came into contact with a Henderson whip. I'd love to think so whether it ever happened or not. Simpler times.

As far as points go, speaking of actual measurements, I taper down to about the size Murphy uses. On Aussie bullwhips using metric measurement, I finish at about 6mm. On American bullwhips I go quite a bit larger than that at about 8mm. I believe Henderson is under 5mm from what I remember corresponding with Paul. Dan or Paul might know the exact. I'm trying to recall whether Henderson used 8 plait on all his points or whether he went down to 6.

I'd bargain that he used hand carved cane for his foundations when he was going for a taper. We do need an x-ray, but on the whip in Morgan's book, the keeper leans as if the foundation is failing some. Same problem most bullwhips have. Beautiful whip though!

My whips are pretty similar, I use about a 6mm point on aussie styled whips, about a 7mm point on american styled whips,

sort of whatever on indy whips ( I've made everything from 6-8.5mm points on indy whips ). I do, however, aim for a point

around 5mm on my stockwhips. The overall whip being lighter and thinner calls me to make the point lighter and thinner, so that's

what I do.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:44 pm

Riku, check with Paul for exact measurements on the Henderson points. I don’t own the whips, so I’m not comfortable giving out those kind of specifics. For comparison though, the Mike Murphy whips I’m looking at now taper down to around 4.2 – 4.5 mm just below the fall hitch. That’s on both his stock whips and bullwhips. I believe the points on the Henderson’s were a bit narrower still.

Something to consider if your trying to quantify and emulate whip dimensions. As you gain more experience, see and handle more whips made by other whip makers; your going to find that there are variations in those measurements from whip to whip. Even those made by the same whip maker. Some are going to be very minor others are going to be significant depending on how exact your trying to get. It goes back to what I was saying about the screen used Indy whips though. While they were all made within certain parameters, there’s a surprising amount of minute variation when you start measuring the individual whips.

Ben, I’d be surprised if Paul didn’t mention Snowy Baker, he’s such an imperative part of Henderson’s work originally being introduced to the U.S. market. He’s been brought up in more detail here on COW in past threads so feel free to do a search. That’s a great connection between your great grandfather and Will Rodgers. I’d say if he was spending time around Will, there was a pretty good chance he was around those whips too. I believe most of Henderson’s whips ended in an 8-plait point.

For good or for bad, every now and then damaged whips turn up that are documented and give us a glimpse of what’s inside them and how they are made. But one of the guys in another whip group i'm in recently ran his Joe Strain bullwhip through an x-ray machine. The results were kind of neat.

Dan

Marhala · Post by **Marhala** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:10 am

BullWhipBorton wrote: For good or for bad, every now and then damaged whips turn up that are documented and give us a glimpse of what’s inside them and how they are made. But one of the guys in another whip group i'm in recently ran his Joe Strain bullwhip through an x-ray machine. The results were kind of neat.

Dan

Wow! I've been fantasizing with that since I got my first roo bullwhip back in 1994. I'm glad some one did!

Aldo.

ag04 · Post by **ag04** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:20 pm

That's a pretty nifty idea, and I love those Henderson whips, gorgeous pieces of work they are.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:32 pm

ag04 wrote:That's a pretty nifty idea, and I love those Henderson whips, gorgeous pieces of work they are.

Hey ag04, welcome to the COW forums, I'm JeremyM on the forums you come from

ag04 · Post by **ag04** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:58 pm

It's good to be here!
Haha, I figured that out, I noticed some parallel prose to your posts, which cued me off.

Whipartist · Post by **Whipartist** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:10 am

Wow, I didn't realize Murphy's points were quite that small! I'll have fun doing some searches on here when I get a chance. I'll have to dig up the old correspondence I had with Paul and see what I can find as well.

Ben

Saud · Post by **Saud** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:58 am

Whipartist wrote:Wow, I didn't realize Murphy's points were quite that small! I'll have fun doing some searches on here when I get a chance. I'll have to dig up the old correspondence I had with Paul and see what I can find as well.

Ben

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