Jack Daniel's/"Belle of Lincoln" bottle anachronism?

hocfutue · Post by **hocfutue** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:58 am

Not sure if this has been discussed before.

I did some poking around on the history of Jack Daniel's for a non-Indy project. According to the Whisky Guide, due to state and (later) federal prohibition, as well as quality issues, Jack Daniel's whiskey wasn't produced between 1910 and 1938.

Hmm.

Okay, maybe Marion and the Egyptian bartender were refilling their bottles with some lesser elixir? Or perhaps there were some 20+ year-old bottles of Jack in Tibet and Egypt?

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:29 am

International shipping was slower then. No FedEx...

LJ

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:11 pm

Yes, and considering he was wearing a MK VII bag from the future as well...

hocfutue · Post by **hocfutue** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:53 pm

I have a repro small box respirator I use for WWI events. Might start using it for my Indy bag, just to be historically, if not screen, accurate!

May call for a fan film: Indiana Jones and Closet of Anachronisms!

darthinvictus · Post by **darthinvictus** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:22 pm

I also ocassionally poke around into jack daniels bottles for non indy reasons...... and have seen the future to boot.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:30 pm

darthinvictus wrote:I also ocassionally poke around into jack daniels bottles for non indy reasons...... and have seen the future to boot.

DI, you rock it sir!!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:13 am

I have never had a problem with that bottle being in that scene.

If you note, that's the clearest JD whiskey I've EVER seen being poured out of that bottle, so bottom line, it's not JD or a JD product that's being represented in the scene. It's just a bottle that's been reused for bottling another locally distilled product, and could easily have been left laying around and used multiple times during Prohibition.

Heck, empty bottles from the 1860's are still being found in unbroken condition in the South (which, considering what happened during that time period, is particularily interesting.

), so using a 20 year old bottle isn't that unusual in an area that repurposes items over and over again.

Egyptians have been famous for the practice of reuse of materials for millennium.

Regards! Michaelson

Christian Jones · Post by **Christian Jones** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:41 am

Michaelson wrote:Egyptians have been famous for the practice of reuse of materials for millennium

And they still are. You can not imagine how many out of date Coca Cola bottles I've seen there, with simply a new label tag pasted on top of the old one...
And when it comes to alcohol, most of the people in North Africa don't drink, so it is possible to find an old bottle quite easily.
Even more in the mid 30's when they had less tourists.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:51 pm

You talking 'reality', or 'reality'?

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:24 pm

....meaning, are you speaking of the 'historical' reality as it pertains to the original Jack Daniels bottle itself, or the reality of how THIS particular JD bottle ended up on the set of Raiders?

My reading and understanding of the original post was about the actual history of the BofL bottle and it's relationship to the history of Raiders whose story was set in 1936. (Boy, didn't THAT sound 'academic' in nature!

)

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 pm

Well, maybe, but considering the scene was shot on location in Tunis, one can only wonder if the prop department actually brought bottles along with them for this shot, or they just grabbed something 'period correct' from the local area.

Really doesn't matter one way or the other when it comes right down to it. Real or 1979 re-issue, they had no clue 'we'd' be sitting around staring at frame grabs trying to read bottle labels trying to figure 'historical context' regarding props of a film they thought was just a good adventure film, and then they'd just move on to the next project.....

The only real problem with the 1979 re-issue is, according to the JD website, the re-issue bottle doesn't look anything like the one used in the film.

http://www.jdcollectorspage.com/decanters3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:00 pm

http://www.belgianjack.com/?p=belle%20of%20lincoln" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After reading more, seems more likely to me the 'set' bottle was a complete fabrication. Nothing LIKE the bottle seen in Raiders seems to have been made in the style of bottle the real Belle of Lincoln was bottled in, original OR 1979 issue.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:00 pm

Yep. Could be.

Thing is, they'd have the same problem using the JD name too without approval, so either way they'd be nailed in that respect.

Regards !Michaelson

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:18 pm

But wasn't it just "free advertising" back then? The branding/merchandising/licensing thing as it exists today was still mostly off in the future...

LJ

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:48 am

Ok.

Too bad we don't know anyone who could get their hands on the actual paperwork and check it out.

LJ

Note to mods: We definitely need a "tongue firmly in cheek" smilie.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:50 am

We have one.

Regards! Michaelson

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:33 am

Only if the name is changed from "Razz".

Heck, _

would pick up the Plymouth (with you in it

) and drop it on my pointy little head if I used that one!!!!

LJ

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:35 am

Hummm. that could be painful.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:14 am

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm sure they had no clue 30 years later there'd be a bunch like us staring at frame grabs of HD images from the film to pick up on things like this.

To them it was just 'a bottle' they used in a scene that wasn't on screen for over a minute that they grabbed, filled with water (remember, the booze was clear, so it wasn't even a JD product in the first place), and put in front of Ford before the cameras rolled.

Regards! Michaelson

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:45 am

_ wrote:There's one from Jaws but I'm drawing a blank...

National Geographic?

Ian

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:26 pm

_ wrote:Agreed... It's just funny because I remember thinking that it was a bottle of JD. As a 17-year-old. Tell's you something about my formative years?

The actual square bottle of JD is in the Napal bar and is the one Ford pours himself a drink. It's also the broken bottle whose contents gets set on fire on the bar top.

'Old Number 7'.

That's why I think JD HAD to have had some kind of product placement agreement in place, as product and product reference shows up twice in the film.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:49 pm

_ wrote:There's one from Jaws but I'm drawing a blank...

Mrs. Paul's?

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:30 am

Yeah, I would think the bottles in the Raven would be much more of an issue as being readily identifiable.

Michaelson wrote:To them it was just 'a bottle' they used in a scene that wasn't on screen for over a minute that they grabbed, filled with water (remember, the booze was clear, so it wasn't even a JD product in the first place), and put in front of Ford before the cameras rolled.

Regards! Michaelson

It's light, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the contents 'clear'.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:40 am

Very good. I'm thinking of Belloq's 'family label'. That was clear liquid.

This is definitely a whiskey representation .....but the bottle is still wrong for the product it depicts.

Regards! Michaelson

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:48 am

Michaelson wrote:Very good. I'm thinking of Belloq's 'family label'. That was clear liquid.

This is definitely a whiskey representation .....but the bottle is still wrong for the product it depicts.

Regards! Michaelson

Always a square bottle?...Just did a Google and it looks like it, but you tend to know more than Google...

Ian

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:29 am

Not sure I understand the question.

'Old number 7' has always been in a square bottle, yes.

BofL was NEVER in a square OR round bottle. It was in a decanter.

Regards! Michaelson

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 am

Sorry. I meant was JD always in a square bottle? Wasn't very clear.
Ian
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Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:03 am

Old number 7 has been in square bottles from the beginning, yes. (according to the JD museum)
The Belle of Lincoln was NEVER in anything but the decanter, as seen in the links provided above.

If I ever get a free moment, I'll drive over to the Jack Daniels distillery and ask them if they can provide any more information. They're located in the next county from where I live.

Regards! Michaelson

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:20 am

Thank y' Sir.

.and...get a tour and possibly a couple of fingers?...

Ian

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:22 am

The tours are free, but unfortunately Moore County is a dry county, as are all counties that contain a distillery in the U. S. No alcohol sales allowed.

That said, though all counties AROUND Moore County are 'wet'. $\:D/$

Regards! Michaelson

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:41 am

Not even if its gratis? I did not know that. :$
Ian

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Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:17 am

Nope. Not even gratis. Federal law.

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:44 am

Imagine them trying to get that law passed at the Guinness factory! LOL!!

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:54 am

If anyone questions how product placement in movies works, watch "Greatest Movie Ever Sold". You get some examples of how powerful product placement is over a production if the company isn't getting what they want. A great, informative movie.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:53 am

Kt Templar wrote:Imagine them trying to get that law passed at the Guinness factory! LOL!!

I don't know how it works at breweries, KT. I don't think they HAVE the problem over here.

How is it at a distillery over there?

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:01 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:Imagine them trying to get that law passed at the Guinness factory! LOL!!
I don't know how it works at breweries, KT. I don't think they HAVE the problem over here.

How is it at a distillery over there?

Regards! Michaelson

Distilleries do tours too and they offer tastings at the end.

The workers at Scottish distilleries used to get given 'drams' during the day and these were quite large measures.

Brewery wise, I used to live near the Stag Brewery in Mortlake (est 1487) and they used to get free beer too (this was probably ended in the 80's, it was a anecdote from someone still working there at the time).

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:38 pm

Well, prepare to be disappointed if you go to a distillery here in the U. S. and expect a sample at the end of the tour. It ain't happening.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:41 pm

Yeah, sample freebies at wine producers is pretty much a given. It's done in Tennessee as well.

Regards! Michaelson

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Ah good! I was having second thoughts at touring the vineyards near SF next time I'm over!

Back on the bottle. I feel it's likely to have been a colour copy glued to the bottle and rubbed down with a scourer (possibly whilst wet). It has that look to it. CLC's were around by the time Raiders was made.

On the fictional side, it would have fitted nicely that the bottle would have been recycled over the years with local spirit replacing the original. Though I doubt that the prop guys thought that deeply into it. Old looking bottle with a vintage label was probably as far as it went. JMO.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:17 pm

There's a few major breweries here namely JW Lees and the Boddingtons. Free beer at the tour end is obligatory and reciprocated via the traditional custom of wall to wall vomiting.

Ian

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Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:20 pm

Fewer and fewer wineries offer free sampling rooms. Most of the wineries in the Finger Lakes region (Curator Rick's neck of the woods) charge either a fee for 'all you can taste' or charge per glass.

Last time I was out in SF wine country (spring of '94) the wineries gave free samples. Or course, I also found out we could buy the same wines cheaper at retail outlets than at the winery itself!

Anheuser-Busch in St. Louis used to give four 8oz glasses of beer to at the end of the free tour. I went with my father-in-law, Bride and her friend. My F-in-L didn't drink and the girls only had two each. I wasn't going to let that beer go to waste, but they only gave you 30 minutes in the tasting room before the next tour arrived! It was a fun afternoon.

Carlsburg in Denmark charged for the tour this summer, but my Bride and I got two beers each at the end and the kids got free admission and soft drinks.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

FloatinJoe · Post by **FloatinJoe** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:20 pm

Michaelson wrote:Old number 7 has been in square bottles from the beginning, yes. (according to the JD museum)
The Belle of Lincoln was NEVER in anything but the decanter, as seen in the links provided above.

If I ever get a free moment, I'll drive over to the Jack Daniels distillery and ask them if they can provide any more information. They're located in the next county from where I live.

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson,

I hate to disagree with you, but Belle of Lincoln Straight Whiskey (with the label used in Raiders) was originally bottled and sold in a square bottle. When I was researching this back in 2005, it was posted here that the original bottle was square (link appears about halfway down that page). There are six known in existence (5 at the distillery and 1 in a private collection). I am including a link to the The Jack Daniel's Collectors Page that tells about these bottles. I have also included the link to a page discussing the original bottle. Click here.

Mike

Rambler · Post by **Rambler** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:56 pm

Michaelson wrote:Well, prepare to be disappointed if you go to a distillery here in the U. S. and expect a sample at the end of the tour. It ain't happening.

Regards! Michaelson

It all depends I suppose. Several years ago, I was on a tour of a smaller Kentucky

(name left blank to protect the guilty) distillery; my brother and I were the only people on the tour. When we arrived, the lady at the office was not aware they were open for tours that day. But, checked on it and gave us a tour anyway. We happened to be there on a day and time when a lot of barrels were being opened. We were each given souvenier barrel bung plugs in a plastic cup to catch them when they were pried out. The fact that the cups caught a bit of barrel proof bourbon did not seem to bother the tour guide or other workers. So, we just sipped and toured.

The "tour guide" was in the quality control department. So, she got to taste it almost every day. Although they are supposed to spit it out, appartently toward the end of the day, a little manages to get swallowed anyway.
Nearby, the Jim Beam distillery maintains a museum of decanters (their own) and the history of local whiskey making. Definitely a must see if you are in that part of the country.
Michaelson is correct though. There is no tasting at any distillery. However, they are ususally quite able to direct you to the nearest retailer.

lantzn · Post by **lantzn** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:30 pm

Michaelson wrote:Well, prepare to be disappointed if you go to a distillery here in the U. S. and expect a sample at the end of the tour. It ain't happening.

Regards! Michaelson

Not so here in WA. I recently toured the Dry Fly distillery in Spokane and after the tour all of us got 1/2 shots of each of their 4 products. Gin, vodka whiskey and bourbon. I'm a brewer and wine maker but not to fond of straight alcohol so slipped my wife mine after a sip to see how smooth it was. The product was exceptionally clean tasting

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Update:
http://www.dryflydistilling.com/main.php

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:47 pm

The Maker's Mark distillery in Laredo, Kentucky gives a heck of a tour. They even let you taste the mash in their big vats if you so desire, and at the end of the tour you get a free sample of "White Dog" and of their aged bourbon.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:11 pm

They've changed things since the 80's then. I, too, have been through Maker's Mark (my sister-in-law had an inlaw who worked there for years), and there were no samples handed out at tours end, and for the reason given above.

Regards! Michaelson

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:59 pm

Maybe Laredo's not a dry county anymore? Not only did my wife and I have the free samples at the end of the tour, but I bought and hand dipped a couple of bottles in wax to seal them. In fact, just about everyone on the tour bought a bottle, or two. I guess some things do improve over time!

Regards,
SJ

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:01 am

That's probably the case, SJ.

You can buy bottles of Jack Daniels (the collectors decanters) right at the distillery too, but Moore county is a dry county and has been since Prohibition, so there's no open container of anything there.

Regards! Michaelson

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:37 am

Ah, I didn't realize you could even buy alcohol in a dry county. Maybe the laws vary state by state? I'll tell you, it always takes me awhile to get used to the strange, to me anyway, alcohol laws in the US after I come back from Japan. Every time I tried to explain dry/wet counties the Japanese looked at me like I was crazy. It's understandable though. Over there you can buy alcohol just about anywhere, even from vending machines on the streets and you can drink just about anywhere too since there are no laws against public intoxication. There's nothing like a nice ice cold, relaxing beer in the hot and humid Japanese summer after a hard day's work while you're standing on the platform waiting for your train. Of course over there, beer is ridiculously expensive, while whiskey is cheaper, which is why I began to drink bourbon in the first place.

hocfutue · Post by **hocfutue** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:43 pm

Alcohol laws do, indeed, vary greatly state-by-state. And county by county in some states.

While Prohibition was repealed in 1933, many states and counties continued some form of it, when in accordance with state law. In some counties, it is legal to buy hard alcohol, but not to distill it. In others, the opposite is true. Here in WA state (and some other states), hard liquor may only be sold in state-run shops. In CA, hard liquor is available at most grocery and convenience stores.

Moore county in TN is a dry county--you cannot sell hard liquor. However, a specific law passed in the last decade makes a singular exception: at the Jack Daniel's distillery, visitors can buy one bottle of a special commemorative edition. No doubt, with a special county tax levied...

Hmm, possible fan film here. "Indiana Jones and the Belle of Lincoln" where he goes in quest of a fabuloulsly rare and expensive bottle of Mr. Daniel's private reserve. Who knows what dangers lurk in the spring waters of the Lynchburg cave?