Whose Idea was the tight Hat Pinch in Raiders?

[Canada Jones]

A while back there was an excellent thread called "The Fedora from a Jacket Guy" posted by _. In it he talked about the receipts he had showing that Ford and Spielberg went and bought the original fedora from Herbert Johnson. I remember reading in that thread about them both also trying to bash the hat themselves. What I don't understand is that if they bashed the hat the way they liked it, then I assume the tight pinch was something they came up with. If this is true, then why do none of the subsequent hats have the tight pinch?

Also, what role would Deborah have played in the shape of the hat? Regardless of who actually bought the hats it would make sense that on set she had to maintain the shapes of the hats throughout the production.

I wonder the same about the turn - why only Raiders had it.

curious.

Canada

[The Antiquarian]

Now, these are some good questions... I was wondering about the tight crease myself. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't exactly typical during the 1930s, but it did apparently exist some number.

[Indiana Jeff]

Both Michaelson and Fedora have posted that a tight front pinch was not uncommon in the 20s-30s.

As to who was responsible for it in ROLA? The hat write-up on the main page tells the story. http://www.indygear.com/igfedora.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; From my understanding from what I've read here, DN had a less active role in the wardrobe after she spent all of her budget on unuable jackets. And her story of going to HJ, meeting with Swales, etc. have never quite fit with other versions of the 'hat story'. Of course, there's still the lingering story of her sitting on the hat to break it in so she may have had a hand in shaping it.

By LC it may have been the costume designer wanting to put his 'signature' on the costume. Not unlike Bernie moving the bag strap to over the jacket.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Michaelson]

Yep, a tight pinch was a normal and regularily used 'style' in the 1930's.

If you ever get a chance, watch some of the original D.ick Tracy films from 1936-37, and you'll see dozens of them in the serial.

Regards! Michaelson

[Bemo]

Of course, there's still the lingering story of her sitting on the hat to break it in so she may have had a hand in shaping it.

Hmmm, then she really DIDN'T have a HAND in shaping it

Sorry, long day and a little snarky.

Great questions though!

[Canada Jones]

These are good responses. Here is another question - if the tight pinch on the hat was something common in the 1930s then isn't that something a costume designer would be familiar with having researched the era? If Spielberg and Ford shaped the hat themselves then I doubt they would have known this because in the days of preinternet this info was hard to come by. Although I do know that Spielberg watched a lot of movies and might have been familiar with the tight pinch from watching old serials such as Dick Tracey. So I guess I am wondering regardless of who actually found the hat and bought it, who is responsible for the shape? It sounds like it could well have been Deborah's idea because if it was something Spielberg got from an old serial and was something he liked I doubt he would have allowed the changed. Just because a designer in subsequent movies want to put "their mark" on a costume, it is my understanding that ultimately the director decides.
best
Canada

[Michaelson]

If you're looking for the credit, I'd hand it to Spielberg. Regardless of WHAT Deb did to the hat, it was his ultimate decision (and hand) that determined what showed up on screen, especially in Raiders.

Regards! Michaelson

[Canada Jones]

Wouldn't all the shaping and distressing have been done by Deborah? I can't see Spielberg in between takes fixing the bash etc on the hat. Actually I have to say, overall I love the costumes in this film (with the exception of perhaps Karen Allen's outfits).
best
Canada

[Michaelson]

Depends. From what we've been told, Deb was pretty much banned from the set from the get-go, so the heavy lifting fell to her assistant.

Between her and Ford's constant 'messing around' with the hat (you see him doing that in a lot of the outtakes), the final 'look' evolved....but the tight pinch HAD to be approved by Spielberg in the long run, and the entire premise of Raiders was a homage to the old cliffhanger serials of the 1930's....and there were TON's of examples of that style in those old films.

Regards! Michaelson

[Travelsonic]

Found this doing a Google image search for no reason, then found this thread:

1930s HJ ad:

[gobo]

That ad seems a little too good to be true... looks like something made by a fan.
According to the Making of Indiana Jones book, Lucas wanted a hat similar to Bogart's in Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Bogart used to have a tight pinch on his hats.

[Travelsonic]

That ad seems a little too good to be true... looks like something made by a fan.

A lot of ads had that look to them back then - vibrant color images, illustrations, etc - in the 30s, 40s, 50s, even into the 60s I'd reckon - I have several magazines from the 50s with all sorts of ads for underwear, soups, etc, with a similar quality.

[fifthchamber]

Most of the adverts from that era went with a photograph over a drawing though..And the "imported to the US by Magnoli & Sons" (I think, hard to see clearly) seems to hint otherwise....

That and I'm not sure if in the early 1930's "bomber jackets" were even called "bomber jackets" since they had no link (yet) to the bomber pilots using them from 1942 (For the US)...So...

I'd suggest it's a rather long shot..

[Bruce Wayne]

"imported to the US by Magnoli & Sons"

I zoomed in on my phone & that is what it says. It clearly is a fake.

[fifthchamber]

Yeah, I figured someone would have a better Bat-Camera than me here! Thanks for that mate....

That, together with the (rather badly drawn for an advert) illustrations and the "bomber jacket" reference make it clear.... Cute, but definately not a legit advert from Herbert Johnson...

Thanks Charlie!

[Travelsonic]

Thank you guys for actually backing up the claim that it is fake.

Your evidence is more than convincing.

/I_feel_derpy_now

[Canada Jones]

Great looking ad but yes, it is certainly not from the 1930s. Is is something Magnoli used at some point in his advertising since his name is on it?
best
Canada

[fifthchamber]

I have the feeling Magnoli would have done a much better job....But it's possible..

[kwad]

Who ever made that ad, I like it.
However, the guy in the "bomber jacket" and the pan-am clipper in the upper corner is a dead giveaway to its fake-itude.
At least they left out the bullwhip!

[Indy Magnoli]

I just saw this thread! I made that ad many years ago to put on the back of a vintage magazine replica I was making. Prophetically, it was made a few years before Magnoli Clothiers was founded... and before I had two sons!

Kind regards,
Indy

[Canada Jones]

That is hilarious! What a great place the internet can be. Either way - nice job on the layout and look of the page.
best
Canada