Quick reply please. Cutting my overlay

[riku1914]

Ok so on my whip , I have done my core, first belly, first bolster, second belly, and just cut out my second bolster. I'm left with the

centermost part of my calf hide, it is about 28"x17", measured in the more middle areas ( since it is a sort of triangle at this point)

Will I have enough to cut the overlay of my 8' whip, again it is ABOUT 28" x 17", which should come out to about 3.3 sq. ft, if my

math is correct.

here is a picture of the hide:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Again this is about 3.3 sq. ft. , I am wanting to cut the overlay of my8 ft. whip, in 12 strands, ending in a 6 plait point.

Will I have enough?

[whiskyman]

Not sure - I don't usually measure my hides. It looks a little on the small side. BUT - did you roll your whip at each stage? It looks rather lumpy in the pic.

[riku1914]

Not sure - I don't usually measure my hides. It looks a little on the small side. BUT - did you roll your whip at each stage? It looks rather lumpy in the pic.

It is kind of lumpy, that's because I just tied the first part of my second bolster on, i had two more pieces, and didn't want to splice

all of those while braiding, so i'm jsut tying it on real quick with some artificial sinew, it is a lot more smoother looking now.

Back on the overlay, I have another hide, but i had planned on using this for another whip , it is 9 1/4 sq. ft., this one was

9 sq. ft. I am using the calf for bolsters also remember.

Do you think I could cut the two overlays from my other hide, and use the rest of this hide for my belly's on the second whip.

Oh also this is my first leather whip, and my first time hand cutting strands.

[riku1914]

Not sure - I don't usually measure my hides. It looks a little on the small side. BUT - did you roll your whip at each stage? It looks rather lumpy in the pic.

It is kind of lumpy, that's because I just tied the first part of my second bolster on, i had two more pieces, and didn't want to splice

all of those while braiding, so i'm jsut tying it on real quick with some artificial sinew, it is a lot more smoother looking now.

Back on the overlay, I have another hide, but i had planned on using this for another whip , it is 9 1/4 sq. ft., this one was

9 sq. ft. I am using the calf for bolsters also remember.

Do you think I could cut the two overlays from my other hide, and use the rest of this hide for my belly's on the second whip.

Oh also this is my first leather whip, and my first time hand cutting strands.

[Canuck Digger]

It does look kinda small for an entire overlay, and my guess is you won't make it with this one alone.

But you should still try to; first it will give you valuable experience, secondly if you cut let's say 75% of your overlay that's not bad at all and since you have another hide, you can always start cutting the bellies for your other whip and when those are done, you can finish cutting out the overlay for this one.

You might want to consider that it may only yield 75 or maybe even only 60 % of your overlay and if it happens that your run short, you can always use the short strands (s) for something else.

Good luck,


Franco

[riku1914]

I guess I'll cut the first 6 strands of my overlay from it, i trimmed my other hide yesterday, so I'll cut my belly's from it, then cut the

other 6.

[Marhala]

I second what Nick and Franco said. In my latest bullwhip, I used around 40dm2, about 4sqft. So it may not be enough for the whole overlay. I think it is wise to stick to cutting just half of it, but trying to cut wider, to adjust for stretch in leather and getting a nice overlay. Then cut the other half from the larger hide.

ATB,

Aldo.

[riku1914]

You do mean cutting wider on the bigger calf hide right? Because if not you got me confused. The part of this hide that I'm on is

extremely strong ( naturally ) and doesn't have hardly any stretch on it. While on my other hide, I trimmed out the nasty areas,

but there is most definitely more stretch than on this one.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'll be cutting my overlay today, quick question, do you recommend I cut my strand drops out of the

hide? OR should I just cut 12 identical strands and drop whenever I need? Of course if I cut the strand drops I would cut them

extra, and for the last 2 ft. of the whip I'd have 8 strands just in case of breaks, then I can drop whenever.

[Canuck Digger]

Unless you plan on finishing with 12 strands, which I don't recommend, always plan your strand length ahead of time; this not only reduces waste (and let's not forget an animal gave its life so you could have this hide...), but it also leaves more leather in the hide to cut out the longer strands.

Figure out about where you will be dropping (not so hard to do; the first drops are around the halfway mark and then divide up the rest of the length so that your very last drop is (ideally for me), at the latest, a foot from the tip - even better a foot and a half. This way by the time you get to the end of your whip, the last strand you dropped has been plaited over long enough to be well secured in the core.

Always try to leave at least 6" to properly anchor a dropped strand, this will give you the math needed to figure out where to drop your strands - make a little chart to plan it out if you want, nothing wrong with that.

Once you know where you will drop each strand (roughly) add 6" for the drop to be solid + whatever length you may need to continue the core. In the core strands, always trim the strand that was dropped the earliest, this way it's been in the core the longest and is more secure.

As a rough guide, you could think of dropping two strands at around 4', another two more around 5 1/2, and the last two around 6 1/2. Again this is a rough guideline so sit down and figure this out for yourself. The last two may need to be dropped one at a time, so allow yourself the room to do it in.
Good luck,


Franco

[riku1914]

That's kind of what I had planned to do, I had planned on making my second two quite long to continue the core that the second

bolster makes, dropping the first two ( one or two at a time depending on how it turns out ) and dropping my second two around

the 5 1/2 - 6 mark, and using these as a core, for my remaining 7/8 strands, and dropping the final somewhere in this area.

When I drop strands while I'm using two drops as a core, should I cut one of the one's I'm using as a core and continue to just

use two, or should I use three as a core, and cut it off at a long taper as necessary?

I would think this would make a bulge, but then again since I'm using less strands to plait with it might even it out?

[riku1914]

lol... I just flipped over my hide for the first time since I started, and saw THIS:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I saw this when I bought it at tandy, and planned on using it as a part of the bellies on the second whip, I had completely

forgotten! It's hardly thinner than the rest of it, it just got scratched sometime before it got to me. Looks like I will be using

the rest of this hide for bellies on my next whip, and I'll cut some bolsters out of the second hide, just to get the length out of it

and to take up some of the slightly more stretchy areas. I know it had to take the same beating as the rest of it but since it ,

being a bolster, is wider, I find it easier to resize after stretching it.

edit: don't mind the date, my camera is stupid and resets after i turn it off, I don't want to take the time to reset the date after

every time unless it's important so I just let it alone.

Well anyway, thanks again for all the help.

[tomek9210]

When I drop strands while I'm using two drops as a core, should I cut one of the one's I'm using as a core and continue to just

use two, or should I use three as a core, and cut it off at a long taper as necessary?

I would think this would make a bulge, but then again since I'm using less strands to plait with it might even it out?

I would leave all of the strands and figure it out when plaiting. It's easier to cut some of them out or taper them rather than adding new strands because of too small core to plait over.

[riku1914]

When I drop strands while I'm using two drops as a core, should I cut one of the one's I'm using as a core and continue to just

use two, or should I use three as a core, and cut it off at a long taper as necessary?

I would think this would make a bulge, but then again since I'm using less strands to plait with it might even it out?

I would leave all of the strands and figure it out when plaiting. It's easier to cut some of them out or taper them rather than adding new strands because of too small core to plait over.

I don't understand?

[Marhala]

Riku, what I meant with cutting wider half the overlay was for both the large hide and what was left of the other smaller piece (in case it had any stretch, as I've heard kip and goat stretch much all the way).

Hope I was clear. I sometimes write fast and forget to check if the message makes any sense to others than me.

Aldo.

[riku1914]

Well guys cutting out my overlay was more than discouraging. I didn't expect my strands to be uniform for my first whip, but at least

I wanted them to be alright, ya know. The strands on my belly's were fine, but my overlay, of course, the layer everyone is gonna

see, is kinda crappy. I pared them, and now they're sitting up on by the rest of the whip. I'll still plait it as it was intended but there

will be areas with gaps, and areas that bunch up, I'll likely unplait and resize the one's that bunch up, but as for the one's with

gaps, I can't do much about that can I.

I also had a strand grab something as I was paring and it jerked and cut, any help on splicing strands?

Another thing, next time should I just buy an aussie strander ( and eventually a Dene Williams Strander ) and use that, and taper

my strands while paring? This is what Bernie Wojcicki does so there is OBIVOUSLY nothing wrong with this, but also he has

about 38 years more experience than I do

I'm sure a lot of people would have given up after how bad that went, but I am determined not to give up that easily, tomorrow

I'll wake up and be ready to go again ( though I won't be able to do anything tomorrow or this weekend for that matter )

Please give me some kind of advice on what i stated previously, I'm dying here

[Canuck Digger]

As stated in Hitchhiker's guide "Don't panic!"

First of all mucking up your first few whips is par for the course. It happens, you learn, and you get better.

Now, the Aussie strander does not skive, it only cuts. What Bernie has a multi-purpose tool with many settings. With a strander, cut wide, stretch, re-size and skive, or don't re-size and just skive and re-size at the same time; up to you. I like to re-size first but many don't.

There are many ways to splice in strands if you've broken one. First thing is to undo the plaiting to well before the break point, at least a foot - foot and a half. Leave six inches to anchor the new strand in the core, then plait with both the old and new side by side for a few stitches (if you've tapered both of them right, the combined width at the point where you plait them together should be the same as any other strand), then drop the old strand into the core and plait over it for at least six inches. It's important to make sure you do not create any bumps, so keep an eye out for that and skive the new strands to a long point and if need be, skive a bit off the other core strands to help take up a bit of the extra size of the new strand. But it shouldn't be a big deal since it is tapered. Taper the old strand too. If you break a strand over a belly, where you do not have access to the core yet, then you will have to cut out a piece from the bolster that corresponds to the shape of the new strand. You can either plait over it directly, or if you feel uneasy, you can always use a bit of strong sewing thread to bind the new strand a bit. Don't go over board here you don't want the thread to bite into the leather too much, just enough to help hold it a bit; the plaiting is what is going to be holding it securely in place, which is why I say leave yourself at least 6" for the new and the old as well as a bit to be able to plait both at the same time. This is obviously not an invisible splice in that you will for a few stitches see a seem between the two halves of the old and new strand as they are plaited side by side, but it isn't that disturbing and many wouldn't even notice it unless told about it.

Again, this is just how I would do it...

Good luck.

Franco

[riku1914]

So splice is almost like a bolster, cut them in triangles, and incorporate them into the plaiting? Oh and also before you put the new

strand in you anchor is in the belly for 6 or so inches.

Now let me put this in my own words and please tell me if this is correct:

You back up about a foot ( from the break point ) take the new strand, and plait over it for about 6 inches, now for a few inches,

plait with both the new and broken strand ( cut to a triangle to match the needed width ) then drop the broken strand in kind of as

if it were a drop.

Correct? Anything missing?

[riku1914]

I've begun plaiting, I've done the handle and the first couple inches of the thong, with how bad my strands are, it actually doesn't

look half bad, I just hope this continues.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Canuck Digger]

No that's pretty much it.

What you call triangle, is usually called tapering, but we understand each other.

Again, the idea is to do things gradually so there is no sudden change is the size of the thong, which is why you can also if need be, skive a bit of leather from the other strands in the core-skive off the same amount as what the new strand is putting in and there will be no difference at all, and by skiving just s very thin sliver from each core strand, there is very little that is actually removed from any one strand because you remove a bit from all of them. This way is a bit more trouble, but as far as I can tell, it's probably the way that weakens the core the least. Always take out what you put in - everything must taper.

Not bad for a first time out. Keep at it.

[riku1914]

Thanks I understand, usually when I'm talking about splicing a bolster or a strand my mind thinks of triangle, but when I'm thinking

of an entire whip or cutting a strand, I think taper.

I got it about 4 ft. down, I ended up, instead of splicing 2 strands, dropping one, and splicing the other ( since it broke )

It worked out fine and what I did was I thinned the splice down to about 4 mm wide, plaited over it for about 6 inches ( maybe lil

more ) then I plaited again for about 1 set of strands ( at the time was 11 ) , lining up the splice and broken one at the same time,

then in one move, I dropped the broken strand and replaced it with the splice, everything worked out fine, this way there is no seam

between the two strands, both strands get secure, and there was no bumps or anything.

Also could you tell me if this is ok what I'm doing:

To start I am using leather dressing as lubrication for this, next whip I'll use plaiting soap and decide which one I like.

Now, what I'm doing is as I'm plaiting, every inch or so I get a tiny dab of leather dressing and rub it on the plaiting above, that

way the strands get lubricated , and I can have something to grab onto without slipping, the whip is rock hard every inch so it's

working. On my belly's I just lubricated all of them before plaiting and it took longer and wasn't as tight.

Is what I'm doing now ok?

[Canuck Digger]

When I said taper the new strand I meant to a point, not just 4mm, but if it worked out OK great.

Yes, ultimately what you did is the way to go, I was just explaining a way that I thought might be simpler for you since everything is done one step at a time, but again, if it worked out, great.

Humm well since you are using leather dressing, I'm not sure what to tell you. I mean with plaiting soap I usually grease the entire set after skiving (sometimes even a bit before stretching if the hide is really dry), and then I'll let that soak in for a bit so it isn't all wet and slippery when I plait (I hate that). I will also reapply plaiting soap if it's been a while that the last coating went on (say if it takes me a long time to finish a whip) and I will do 2 - 3 feet at a time (so there isn't plaiting soap everywhere on the floor..).

Now since you are using leather dressing I'm not sure how different this approach should be, or whether it should be different at all... Seems to me that if let it soak into the leather, things will be that much easier.

It's a good sign if your whip is rock hard; that's how it should be. I think you will really like working with plaiting soap now that you've tried leather dressing...

[louiefoxx]

Be careful not to use too much dressing or your whip can end up with greasy spots. Spots that end up with a lot of grease for whatever reason and are discolored and don't match the rest of the whip...they'll look like greasy spots!

This can happen with plaiting soap as well as dressing.

Louie

[riku1914]

Thanks for the info , also Louie after I get about 6 inches down, I go ahead and wipe off the excess dressing, thanks for the tip

though.

I have another question that someone recently asked me that I had never though of before:

Can you stop a natural tan whip from darkening? I thought you could put natural tan dye in it but I don't know if they make it, or if

it would even stop it.

Any way you could do this? I want mine to darken but it WAS an interesting question.

[louiefoxx]

You can keep a natural tan whip from darkening, and it's very easy. Simply keep it in a dark room and don't put dressing on it.

Louie

[riku1914]

Anyway to keep it in good condition and use it while it not darkening?

Just finished the plaiting. It turned out I had to finish in a 4 strand point, I had two strands just barely short, so I decided to drop

them. I have not rolled it yet.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I'll show a pic once i get handle knots done, which will be in the next couple days.

[Canuck Digger]

Hehehe I think what \Louie is saying is that to all intents and purposes as far as a conventionally made whip (you know using some sort of fat) and within the normal expectancy of use (out in the sun), no it can't be done.

[riku1914]

Hehehe I think what \Louie is saying is that to all intents and purposes as far as a conventionally made whip (you know using some sort of fat) and within the normal expectancy of use (out in the sun), no it can't be done.

Ok I'll let him know.