Why Didn't Indy 4 Feature a G&B?

CM · Post by CM » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:50 am

Don't take this too seriously, folks. But I often wondered why they didn't just go with a G&B for the last film. It was already available, looked great, Harrison already owned one, and it looks way better (to me) than the one they ended up with (sorry TN lovers, but I never liked this predistressed jacket and its dull v-cut pocket flaps).

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:53 am

He could have worn is own boots and his jacket?

CM · Post by CM » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:57 am

Now you're talking.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:02 am

It might be interesting to see what that jacket looks like today, if it has been used much? It was an early run, was it not?

CM · Post by CM » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:52 am

He might have worn a new G&B also, not just the one he had. I think the G&B is the jacket they tired to make when they did Raiders. The one they made is a good prototype, but too soft and poorly made...

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:04 am

As I recall, and _ will correct me if I'm wrong, they WERE approached, but got the call too late to seriously get into 'the game'.

Regards! Michaelson

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:20 am

I like Tony's jackets a lot, but I never wanted his Indy 4 jacket... I agree about the predistressed leather not looking right, and I didn't like the wider cut to the sleeves. I think G&B would have worked out great! I have one on order right now. I would not have liked not having Tony associated with the Indy franchise, but I like the idea of what G&B would have looked like on screen. Maybe Indy 5...

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:59 am

Michaelson wrote:As I recall, and _ will correct me if I'm wrong, they WERE approached, but got the call too late to seriously get into 'the game'.

Regards! Michaelson

It seems like I remember something like that too. Didn't HF take one in, maybe his own, and say something about he liked the jacket (G&Bs), why not just use it. I can just hear is voice telling GL or SS with that same emphatic tone he used when IJ told Marcus that he lost the idol but he had other pieces. good pieces. "Look at this jacket, this is a good jacket. I like the jacket, Steven (or George)." "Yes, yes it IS nice." Maybe I am hearing things in my head...

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:05 pm

The G&B connection was through Lee, was it not? They wanted to use his G&B reproduction jacket for LC, with modifications, but they couldn't have them made in time. Wasn't that the case?

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:50 pm

_ wrote:
whipcracker wrote:
Michaelson wrote:As I recall, and _ will correct me if I'm wrong, they WERE approached, but got the call too late to seriously get into 'the game'.

Regards! Michaelson

It seems like I remember something like that too. Didn't HF take one in, maybe his own, and say something about he liked the jacket (G&Bs), why not just use it. I can just hear is voice telling GL or SS with that same emphatic tone he used when IJ told Marcus that he lost the idol but he had other pieces. good pieces. "Look at this jacket, this is a good jacket. I like the jacket, Steven (or George)." "Yes, yes it IS nice." Maybe I am hearing things in my head...
No, never heard that one...

There were two distinctly different efforts around IV. The first was pre-Bernie. This was at a time when there was a preliminary costume designer on the project. She was itching to be THE costume designer but she ticked some people off. Not sure it's fair to say her name. She had several vendors jumping through hoops to prepare prototypes.

Bernie had been working on another project. When he finished it, he walked into the production office and said "I'm Bernie Pollack and I'm Harrison Ford's costume designer." The "gal" yelled and screamed. Bernie walked into Stevens office on the Universal lot. Steven picked up the phone and fired the "gal". All the preliminary work was thrown away.

Bernie had 8 vendors submitting prototypes. Blah, blah, blah... He went with Tony.

Now, before he asked for prototypes, Bernie and Harrison visited the archives at Skywalker and selected a jacket to use as their basis. That was an Adventure Outfitters jacket made for Lee by Flight Suits.

Harrison did wear his personal LC jacket to a press event with Karen, Kate, and Alison? I bet that's what you're thinking of!

Like I said, I must have been hearing things in my head. Thanks _ for clearing that one up.

(Although it would have been a cool story if it had happened; though the one above is also a cool story...)

donovan · Post by **donovan** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:39 pm

theres a great pic from CS of HF - its a shot of him walking up to mutt after talking to some locals ,at the market scene, where they tell indy they've seen oxley-anyway in this one shot the jacket looks just like a G&B (imho) its very dark in colour-almost black and looks slimmer fitting / tighter round the arms .its a superb pic of indy -very raiderish.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:43 pm

donovan wrote:theres a great pic from CS of HF - its a shot of him walking up to mutt after talking to some locals ,at the market scene, where they tell indy they've seen oxley-anyway in this one shot the jacket looks just like a G&B (imho) its very dark in colour-almost black and looks slimmer fitting / tighter round the arms .its a superb pic of indy -very raiderish.

Ah, do you mean this scene:

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ij4_03.jpg

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ij4_38.jpg

I agree--I think that's one of the best over-all gear images from CS--particularly the jacket.

I'd also like to see Indy in a G&B in the next film. Dave Marshall is good people; I remember when I met him at G&B, he mentioned they would like to submit one for the next film. But, as Todd mentioned, Bernie's desire for a one-man operation makes it less likely. Here's hoping!

Best wishes,
NS

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:05 pm

Yepper Nebraska I am with you...both are great shots of the jacket, but I don't see the G&B look that others are seeing here. To me they look like all the TN's in the movie. Maybe it is just me -- but I really don't see the resemblance other then being Indy style jackets. W>

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:33 pm

At this point Nebraska you should be posting a pic of your terrific G&B; Michael (Tundrarider), you too. I have one on order for size - a 42R. I think I'll need to have 42L sleeves put on a 42R jacket, but I'm trying on the 42R for starters. Dave Marshall was terrific to chat with, a real pleasure.

"The "gal" yelled and screamed."
I had to laugh at that description. I don't imagine much good can come from behaving that way around SS. He seems the type who would respect quiet competence a lot more.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:29 pm

I don’t think that G&B was ever really given a chance to compete for whatever reason. They weren’t on Bernie’s radar.

You know, Bernie seems like a really nice guy, but I really have to question his choices. I mean, I understood why he went with Tony. It would be hard not to after meeting Tony. Tony was a very capable guy. But even Tony said that they just went with the leather that he had on hand. They didn’t look for "the perfect leather" or even attempt to age them. In other words, if Tony had any say, the jacket would have come out a lot cooler than what was in the movie. They were probably up against a deadline, but still.

I can’t get over the fact that Bernie wears a pink shirt in the “making of” documentaries….lol

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:34 pm

Tony told me the only criteria they told him the leather had to withstand was repeated wettings.

That was also told to Steve Delk when in process of making the hats....had to withstand a LOT of water and not have to be messed with after the fact.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:26 pm

_ wrote:
Rundquist wrote:I don’t think that G&B was ever really given a chance to compete for whatever reason. They weren’t on Bernie’s radar.

Neither would have "fit the mold" Bernie wanted. Like Steve Delk. A one-man-operation who could make a jacket on command.

In general that is true, except that from what Dave told me, they would have gone to the ends of the earth to produce in the manner that the production needed. He said that they would have sourced any leather, and so on. Whether or not it would have happened is another story (not saying either way), but I take Dave at his word.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:33 pm

_ wrote:I did that pitch with Bernie but he asked "Is the owner of G&B going to make my jackets?" That's what he was looking for. A small guy who could not get tired of him and tell him to pound sand.

I can understand that. You're just not going to say no to a guy that makes you a prototype in 1 day. I just wish that they would have given Tony a chance to give the jacket his own imprint. It seems like they could have gotten a much cooler leather. That was one of the great things about Tony, his leather choices. The leather was not his call and I think they arrived at the decision to use the leather that they did a little rashly.

ps- just me venting. I never liked the LC jacket and the light color on the jacket left a lot to be desired in my opinion. Fashion police

CM · Post by CM » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:08 pm

Rundquist wrote:
_ wrote:I did that pitch with Bernie but he asked "Is the owner of G&B going to make my jackets?" That's what he was looking for. A small guy who could not get tired of him and tell him to pound sand.
I can understand that. You're just not going to say no to a guy that makes you a prototype in 1 day. I just wish that they would have given Tony a chance to give the jacket his own imprint. It seems like they could have gotten a much cooler leather. That was one of the great things about Tony, his leather choices. The leather was not his call and I think they arrived at the decision to use the leather that they did a little rashly.

ps- just me venting. I never liked the LC jacket and the light color on the jacket left a lot to be desired in my opinion. Fashion police

I think that's fair, Rundquist. I really like the pattern of the LC but hated the fake distressing which looked rank to me even in the 1980's when it came out and people were still wearing marble-wash denim. I think a distressed Coyle would have looked better than the jacket they used in Indy 4. It would have been great if Tony had gotten some nice goat, etc.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:34 pm

Mags is about the only maker today where you can get an accurate copy of the LC jacket. The collar was spot on. I'd like to see Todd make a LC Std. jacket in naked cow.

Arca Perdida · Post by **Arca Perdida** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:31 pm

Tibor wrote: "The "gal" yelled and screamed."
I had to laugh at that description. I don't imagine much good can come from behaving that way around SS.

Yeah, he might marry them

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:22 am

Ha! Touche' Arca. Well said. I suppose it helps to be as pretty as Kate Capshaw to attract that type of attention. I think she did exactly as much screaming as they asked her to.

Sounds like the "gal" did exactly a bit more (as in any) than they wanted her to.

damian della morte · Post by **damian della morte** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:12 pm

seems to me the TN looked more age appropriate, the thicker leather and lighter color seemed to work in a twenty year older indy, alot of guys don't seem to like the jacket but I think it did the trick, indy was in the 50s, and needed a little bit of a different look

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:35 pm

damian della morte wrote:seems to me the TN looked more age appropriate, the thicker leather and lighter color seemed to work in a twenty year older indy, alot of guys don't seem to like the jacket but I think it did the trick, indy was in the 50s, and needed a little bit of a different look

I wouldn’t have minded if they updated the whole outfit. But there was just something “off” about his outfit in CS as far as I was concerned. The jacket just never came across as a “second skin”, like in the other 3 movies. Another fashion police comment, they should have gone much lighter with the hat if they were going to go lighter with the jacket. Instead they go darker with the hat. He just didn’t look cool in CS.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:46 pm

Rundquist wrote:
I wouldn’t have minded if they updated the whole outfit. But there was just something “off” about his outfit in CS as far as I was concerned. The jacket just never came across as a “second skin”, like in the other 3 movies. Another fashion police comment, they should have gone much lighter with the hat if they were going to go lighter with the jacket. Instead they go darker with the hat. He just didn’t look cool in CS.

I agree. It was off. It looked better when the light and example of the jacket made it look darker on the screen. In general, it kinda gave the overall impression of somebody dressed up as Indy, but not Indy. I just can't stand pre-distressed leather (my own character flaw I guess).

Even though it was going to be in the water a lot, dark goatskin would have held up and looked better. Also, the wide sleeves detracted from the Indy look - it began to lose it's vintage appeal where most sleeves were trimmer.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:42 pm

Tibor wrote:At this point Nebraska you should be posting a pic of your terrific G&B; Michael (Tundrarider), you too. I have one on order for size - a 42R. I think I'll need to have 42L sleeves put on a 42R jacket, but I'm trying on the 42R for starters. Dave Marshall was terrific to chat with, a real pleasure...

Sorry for the delay in seeing your request, Tibor. Here's the latest photo of my G&B (with a CS AB, to give you an idea how Indy's latest hat would look like with a G&B). It looks pretty big on me these days, 'cuz I've gotten a lot smaller:

Also, if you haven't seen the Expedition thread yet, you can get your G&B fix over here while you wait for yours to arrive:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48537

Hope to see pics of yours on their, too, when it comes in!

,
NS

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:50 pm

Very nice. Honestly I think you've got a good fit. It was a bit snug when zipped before. Just love the color. It would have been sooooo nice in KOTCS.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:06 pm

Rundquist wrote:
I wouldn’t have minded if they updated the whole outfit. But there was just something “off” about his outfit in CS as far as I was concerned. The jacket just never came across as a “second skin”, like in the other 3 movies. Another fashion police comment, they should have gone much lighter with the hat if they were going to go lighter with the jacket. Instead they go darker with the hat. He just didn’t look cool in CS.

I agree. I was hoping Indy would wear a totally updated costume in 4, myself. I was thinking his war issue A2 or a half-belt and a grey scale costume, different bag, shirt, etc. They can update Batman, why not Indy?

61ButteMT · Post by **61ButteMT** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:42 pm

If he wore an A2, what hide would it be made of?

CM · Post by CM » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:05 am

61ButteMT wrote:If he wore an A2, what hide would it be made of?

Whatever's likely to be accurate. Not fussed, but I do like goat.

damian della morte · Post by **damian della morte** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:14 am

Whatever's likely to be accurate. Not fussed, but I do like goat.[/quote]

damian della morte · Post by **damian della morte** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:18 am

The older a2 where usually made from horse. But a few where also made of goat

damian della morte · Post by **damian della morte** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:46 am

Yes. They certainly do look more like Jackets more specifically.from the thirties

61ButteMT · Post by **61ButteMT** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:56 am

Yes, which is why I asked. I'd favor HH but you guys are Indy experts. I only saw the films

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:30 pm

Thing is, if you pick up any reproduction Sears and Roebuck catalogs from the late 1800's and early 1900's, the main hide offered for leather work jackets for men was mainly cowhide.....so if you lived around Chicago at that time, home of Sears and location of some of the largest stockyards in the world at the time, cowhide WAS common as a leather used for jackets and coats. There were at least 2 cowhide offerings to every pigskin and horsehide jacket advertised at that time.

They were commonly listed as 'railroad, barn and farm work jackets'.

It all depended on where you lived, and what was readily available in that particular area.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:46 pm

That said, the leather jackets apparently weren't THAT popular, as the material of choice was usually canvas or duck jackets, and there are two full pages aimed at that grouping in the catalogs. The leather jackets were aimed at REALLY hard wear and tear.

Agreed...I find it hard to believe he'd pick up cowhide at Oxford. At the time it was considered a 'workmans' material, and well below that of those worn by the Oxford group.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:15 pm

Well since we've gone down this rabbit hole...

I know Indy grew up in an academic household with a high quality education, etc., but I always think of him as coming from blue collar roots. Probably due to the 'adventurer' side of him. He did work some manual labor jobs (soda jerk and waiter according to the YIJC) and I could see him picking leather precisely because it was the material of choice for laborers. And another way to distance himself from (and aggravate) his academic father.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:18 pm

True, but the bone of contention has always been WOULD such a jacket been available at the location he was supposed to have picked it up.....specificially Oxford?

Chicago or New Jersey? Absolutely, but Oxford?

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:30 pm

Fair enough. Neither job is dangerous, but he wasn't working in an office shuffling papers. I'll agree on the spoiled rich kid of the YIJC. I've watched a few episodes recently on Netflix and the early years he is flat annoying as a kid. Had a doting mother that let him get away with murder and he causes destruction where ever he goes. Henry never even really disciplined him other than giving stern looks.

To Michaelson's post, I was thinking more of why Indy would choose leather more than if leather would be available. Maybe he took a trip down to the docks/shipyards?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

damian della morte · Post by **damian della morte** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:36 pm

wasn't the first indy jacket an a2?, then it was modified from that, so I always thought it was originally intended to be an old well used military jacket (even though the a2 is a pilot jacket)

61ButteMT · Post by **61ButteMT** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:10 pm

Wow, great thread this is (for someone new here to the subject)
My Grandparents were from Seattle's shipyards and Montana's copper mines, respectively.
Cowhide was somewhat common, but I remember deerskin and moose skin (almost the same) was used for gloves and 'ranch' or 'western' style jackets. Very soft, no break-in, comfortable, but useless on many items compared to HH, Cow/steer, or goat. I think my dad had a Sears HH jacket, and his USAF D1 appears long gone.
I think hides definitely depended on your income, geography, and occupation. I've seen lots of good stuff over the years, sadly, most of the family items are gone, sans my great grandfather's B3 jacket and pants and dress (Army Air Force) which are now my son's.
There is a great 30's HH barnstormer style jacket on eBay right now. I think it's c ~30's and indeed has buttons, not zips. Have to go find it again. It's over $5k asking price!

CM · Post by CM » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:16 pm

For my money the novels and the TV series are a silly afterthought. If there's a story about where he got his jacket, I think it's bogus.

Indy got around... he could have won the jacket in a poker game.

For Indy 4, I chose a goat A2 becasue I imagine Indy was frugal and might have thought, hey, my A2 jacket will work well in the field. It's the kind of jacket he might have picked up easliy and for no money and worn in the early 1950's.

I also like to think that Raiders could have had him with a capeskin A1 if they were trying for period detail...

Illinois James · Post by **Illinois James** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:51 pm

Perfect analogy!!

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:12 pm

CM wrote:
For Indy 4, I chose a goat A2 becasue I imagine Indy was frugal and might have thought, hey, my A2 jacket will work well in the field. It's the kind of jacket he might have picked up easliy and for no money and worn in the early 1950's.

I also like to think that Raiders could have had him with a capeskin A1 if they were trying for period detail...

I think the advantage of the Indy jacket is no wool cuffs and waist to get bug eaten!

CM · Post by CM » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:21 am

Tibor wrote:
CM wrote:
For Indy 4, I chose a goat A2 becasue I imagine Indy was frugal and might have thought, hey, my A2 jacket will work well in the field. It's the kind of jacket he might have picked up easliy and for no money and worn in the early 1950's.

I also like to think that Raiders could have had him with a capeskin A1 if they were trying for period detail...
I think the advantage of the Indy jacket is no wool cuffs and waist to get bug eaten!

Sure, I hate wool knit jackets myself but it would make sense from a purely cultural perspective.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:09 pm

Michaelson wrote:Thing is, if you pick up any reproduction Sears and Roebuck catalogs from the late 1800's and early 1900's, the main hide offered for leather work jackets for men was mainly cowhide.....so if you lived around Chicago at that time, home of Sears and location of some of the largest stockyards in the world at the time, cowhide WAS common as a leather used for jackets and coats. There were at least 2 cowhide offerings to every pigskin and horsehide jacket advertised at that time.

They were commonly listed as 'railroad, barn and farm work jackets'.

It all depended on where you lived, and what was readily available in that particular area.

Regards! Michaelson

That's why I eventually decided on cowhide. Btw, this is a great thread...a lot of good movie/jacket history in this one. Man, I've been away for too long!

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:55 pm

_ wrote:...So she had to go back and ask Western Costumes if they could fix her screw-up. They could not. In fact they informed her of what she should have already known - she had signed an exclusive costume design deal with Berman's. Regardless of anything else she did, bought, or designed - she would have to give it all to Berman's and pay them for it. So before leaving LA, she had blown her budget. The Wilson's were garbage and she had to pay for them twice. Seriously...

This is very interesting stuff but I am unclear on how this works. Did she try to have Western fix the jackets or remake them? I am not sure why they would not remake jackets for her. Also, at what point did she sign the exclusive costume deal with Bermans and why would anyone what to do this? Is there some advantage to this? How much was the costume budget on Raiders?
thanks
Canada

Canada Jones · Post by **Canada Jones** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:26 pm

Thanks _. That is very helpful. If Bermans owned everything then wouldn't they have ended up with all the jackets/costumes at the end of the production including the Neil Cooper jacket? I am still not sure why anyone would sign such a deal as it seems that it is only in the best interest of Bermans and not the production company. Also, what was the costume budget on raiders?
thanks
Canada

havershaw · Post by **havershaw** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:35 am

I know I don't get to check in here too often, but as I'm a little obsessed with vintage leather jackets right now, this caught my eye.

As an historical aside, I've just checked my 1930-31 Montgomery Ward catalog, and there are 3-4 pages of leather jackets in there...all buttons, no zippers.

And most of them are longer...at least 3/4 length jackets, most (if not all) with belts.

However, virtually every jacket they offer is front quarter horsehide, with a few jackets being offered in an optional "Glove Leather."
I know Montgomery Ward isn't the end-all be-all in terms of vintage fashion, but I like to use them for reference because I figure they were pretty mainstream, and they would carry the most Average Joe-type items, but also attempt to have a little variety (they certainly had a good selection of different types of suits to cater to both the "the smart set" and a more conservative set. A little something for everybody.

My 30-31 catalog is my oldest I think (and the only one I had here at the house). My others are at work. I could swear I saw plenty of Indy-type jackets all over those catalogs - but then couldn't find anything even close in the 30-31. I'll look at my others when I go to work later today and find out when zippers start showing up.

Forrest For the Trees · Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:11 pm

_ wrote:Good point of reference. The "glove" leather is capeskin or a variant of lamb. Buttons, belts, and length are good bellwethers. The hide? Indy was not an Everyman - despite many people's desire to make him one. He was a spoiled rich kid. You know the type - nails the professors underaged daughter and blames her? My guess is he would have picked up the jacket in London someplace where gentlemen bought jackets - much as he wore a gentleman's fedora. Capeskin or calfskin would be the most likely material. Jmo...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is a really great take on the Indiana Jones character. It makes him seem like a really outlandish character (gentleman's fur fedora, lambskin jacket, bull whip!) who has somehow managed to walk the talk. The character has become so iconic, we tend to overlook just how eccentric he really is.