Preparing veg. tanned leather

[riku1914]

So I was reading this and I

noticed these sentences:

"Since I’m using vegetable tanned cowhide, I soak it in water for about an hour. After that time, some of the tanning components are wash out from the fall, allowing it to absorb plaiting soap, and to be shaped more easily."

So if I'm using veg. tanned cowhide leather for my entire whip, do I need to do this for all of the parts of the whip for it to be able

to take leather dressing ( using dressing in place of plaiting soap, just ordered 32 oz. tub ) the correct way? Or did he just do this

for some other reason?

Thanks again guys if it weren't for these forums and many of you I don't know what I would have done.

edit: also where do you guys in the US get shellac? I'd like to shellack my whips but I'm unsure of where I can get it, and what

makes it good quality and not good quality.

[Canuck Digger]

It may be my personal ignorance, but I've never heard of this practice, at least not as far as it pertains to whipmaking. In theory there may be some truth to it, but in practice I've never had any trouble getting any of y whips to absorb either the plaiting soap nor leather dressing. In other words, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

As far as using leather dressing instead of plaiting soap, speaking from experience (meaning I did this myself), I would advise against it. Not because it would do anything really bad to the leather, but because plaiting soap yields such amazing results that it just doesn't make any sense to use dressing instead. Plaiting soap has fat in it so it's not bad for the leather, and it allows for very tight plaiting, without being as greasy as leather dressing.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask why are you not considering plaiting soap? Is it because you do not feel like you can make a good batch of the stuff? Because if that's it, it really isn't all that hard to do and there are options to make a fairly simple recipe that doesn't require tons of time or preparation, and it is well worth it. I tell you, for having plaited with leather dressing and then discovering plaiting soap after having made a few (of my early) whips this way, I simply could not believe the difference in the experience of plaiting with this stuff and the results were awesome too!

You could apply plaiting soap to the entire hide before you start cutting, but since you will inevitably be throwing some away, perhaps it would be better to wait until you have cut out your set before applying the plaiting soap... Maybe Louie will have some insight into this since he has plaited more kip hide whips than I (my experience using the Tandy stuff for anything else than bolsters has been very disappointing), but I should think that applying plaiting soap to very dry kip (as it seams to often be) and letting it soak in properly throughout the strands before stretching the leather might help against some breaking. It certainly won't hurt and will use less plaiting soap than if you'd rubbed it into the entire hide... which I'm sure makes for a more pleasant cutting experience, but man it must take a ton of the stuff to cover an entire side properly!

As for the shellac, I can't tell you where to go because I'm not in the US. Just Google it... But wood working stores often carry the stuff and everything you need to prepare it; denatured alcohol, clean cotton etc etc. Shellac comes in hard flakes and varies in color from pale yellow to dark brown. Obviously, the darker the shellac, the darker the leather will become... so choose the pale stuff. Sometimes there may be some impurities in the lot, like little bits of vegetation or whatnot, so you want to keep an eye on that and possibly filter it once you have the flakes completely diluted in the alcohol. Some come "dewaxed", which means it has a waxy coating removed from it before it is packaged and sold. I believe this type is better for leather, but can't remember which I've been using...

If you use the ready-made variety, you may need to thin it down some before it is ready to be used on a whip. Remember this stuff is mostly used on wood, not leather, so the concentration of it is designed for wood, not for something flexible like leather. it's always a good idea to test your mix, or "cut", on a scrap piece of leather before you go ahead and put it on your whip and see how it behaves and reacts to bending. I make myself a little pad with clean cotton and wadding to apply the shellac. I found that using a paint brush, even when it's not soaked in it, delivers too much shellac at once, and that is a sure fire way to have your shellac crack and flake when dried. Use a pad and apply a thing coat of the shellac, from the base of the handle to the very tip of the thong, then let it dry properly. Better a few thin coats than one thick one.

As always, just my two cents...


Franco

[whiskyman]

As always, a very good 2 cents!

[louiefoxx]

When I'm using a dry hide or skin from a cow I usually give it a coat of something (dressing, dubbin, plaiting soap, etc). Let that soak in (on both sides) then cut it. Now before stretching and paring I grease the strands again.

Here's a short post about greasing a dry skin: http://bullwhips.org/?p=3269

Louie

[Marhala]

So I was reading this and I

noticed these sentences:

"Since I’m using vegetable tanned cowhide, I soak it in water for about an hour. After that time, some of the tanning components are wash out from the fall, allowing it to absorb plaiting soap, and to be shaped more easily."

So if I'm using veg. tanned cowhide leather for my entire whip, do I need to do this for all of the parts of the whip for it to be able

to take leather dressing ( using dressing in place of plaiting soap, just ordered 32 oz. tub ) the correct way? Or did he just do this

for some other reason?

Thanks again guys if it weren't for these forums and many of you I don't know what I would have done.

edit: also where do you guys in the US get shellac? I'd like to shellack my whips but I'm unsure of where I can get it, and what

makes it good quality and not good quality.

Hi all. As Franco said, it doesn't make much difference when making a whip, soaking leather and then applying plaiting soap. But I've found in some of the first whips I've made, that the leather squeeks after some time, whereas whips soaked in plaiting soap don't. One of the reasons is of course, that I do not grease my first whips as much as the more elaborate ones. I read in an old book about leather, that that was the way they used to apply dressing, grease, etc. to leather to nourish it. Another reason I do it, is that I don't have access to redhide, which is already greased. You'll notice that plaiting soap won't penetrate as much when the leather is dry as when it is damp (not soaked).

I do all this extra work because I feel better knowing that the leather has extra grease worked deeper into its fibers than just sitting on top of it, as it happens when it is dry.

Hope that sheds some light on all the trouble I get into just for preparing leather for making a whip.

Aldo.

Also, I soak leather to stretch it the most I can, and then resize it. And yes, properly prepared, plaiting soap is a blessing!

[riku1914]

I hadn't planned on plaiting soap because a lot of my early whip making learning came from Bernie Wojcicki, and it was my

understanding that he used dressing as a plaiting soap, now I could be wrong, like I said this was my understanding, but if you think

plaiting soap would be a lot better for me to use I will use some. I have David Morgan's "Braiding Fine Leather" and it has a recipe

for it in there so I can use that.

This is funny I just ordered a 32oz. tub of leather dressing thinking i'd use a lot now I won't use that much

Guess I have plenty for dressing my whips in the future now

Thanks guys.

[Canuck Digger]

I'm just telling you my own experience. There is nothing preventing you from trying both and seeing for yourself what you prefer...
Cheers,

Franco

[riku1914]

I'm just telling you my own experience. There is nothing preventing you from trying both and seeing for yourself what you prefer...
Cheers,

Franco

What type of soap do you use for it? In the book it says " a type of pure soap" well what is that ?

It seems that making braiding soap is cheaper than leather dressing. One question I do have, what is actually better for the

leather: braiding soap or dressing? I had planned on coating the underside of my bolsters with a pretty thick coat of dressing to

prevent the leather under them stay strong, but if braiding soap actually is better for the whip, I'll coat it with that...

[Canuck Digger]

You're going to find this funny how simple pure soap is. Ready? It's Ivory soap in a bar. Or something like it.

As far as plaiting soap being better than leather dressing, I don't know that I would make such a claim. But the idea here is that plaiting soap works really well for plaiting. Leather dressing is made to maintain leather. If you prefer working with leather dressing it isn't going to harm the leather in any way. I think plaiting soap may allow for a bit of a greater stretch and in the end that can make for a tighter whip. But beyond that, I see no long term benefits of using plaiting soap over leather dressing. But I find plaiting soap is not as greasy during plaiting as leather dressing, and that can make it easier to handle the strands and in the end contribute to the overall tightness of the plaiting. Or maybe not.

All I can tell you is I prefer using plaiting soap for plaiting.
All the best,


Franco

[riku1914]

You're going to find this funny how simple pure soap is. Ready? It's Ivory soap in a bar. Or something like it.

As far as plaiting soap being better than leather dressing, I don't know that I would make such a claim. But the idea here is that plaiting soap works really well for plaiting. Leather dressing is made to maintain leather. If you prefer working with leather dressing it isn't going to harm the leather in any way. I think plaiting soap may allow for a bit of a greater stretch and in the end that can make for a tighter whip. But beyond that, I see no long term benefits of using plaiting soap over leather dressing. But I find plaiting soap is not as greasy during plaiting as leather dressing, and that can make it easier to handle the strands and in the end contribute to the overall tightness of the plaiting. Or maybe not.

All I can tell you is I prefer using plaiting soap for plaiting.
All the best,


Franco

Alright I'll make a batch before I start my whip, and use it for the plaited layers, but i'll grease the bottom of my bolsters with

leather dressing to maintain the leather under it and that area of the bolster itself. Thanks again, I thought ivory soap might be

pure soap but what do I know?

Anyway thanks again

[Canuck Digger]

Ya, I may be over-thinking this, but I don't know that greasing the underside of your bolsters with leather dressing is such a good idea if you are using plaiting soap. See there is water in plaiting soap whereas leather dressing is very much like thick Vaseline and if you use both at once, I would think the dressing might trap the water inside the whip and cause a moisture lock, which might lead to mildew. This isn't a problem normally because the water in the soap evaporates quickly, but then plaiting soap is usually used on ts own, at least that I know of. From my perspective, use one or the other but not both.

I also use plaiting soap to grease the fall before rounding it with a loop of leather. This too will evaporate and you can use leather dressing on it afterward.

Someone else may want to chime in on this...

Franco

[WhipDude]

Canuck, when it comes to whip making, you post quite a bit of information. Now this is a serious question, but have you ever considered making a book?

[Canuck Digger]

Well I post when I can and if my answer can save someone busier than I at that moment some time, while still providing information to someone who needs an answer, then great.

Yes, I have actually.

[riku1914]

Oh ok hmm.... Maybe I'll just try leather dressing with my first whip, see how I like it, then use plaiting soap and see how I like it.

I had planned on using plaiting soap or dressing when rounding my falls ( bought some whitehide fall leather from midwestwhips )

As well.

As I said I think i'll try my first one with just the dressing, and my second with plaiting soap, Then at least I can say I've tried both


On the book thing, I REALLY think you should in fact make one. You have a very simple, understandable way of expressing yourself

through writing and I think making a book would be an excellent idea. I would be one of the first in line to buy one

[Canuck Digger]

Yes I think trying out both is a good idea. That way you can compare and understand first hand what the differences are, and make up your own mind from there.

I love the whitehide that Midwest Whips sell! You will see when you get it it will be very dry, almost rigid. You can decide how you prepare your falls yourself, but this is how I do it; first I cut a straight edge at the top of the piece of whitehide so you start with a clean line, then either mark the leather with a pencil/pen or cut a mark line right away. Don't make your cuts very deep, first because you will not be able to cut through in one single pass-the leather is way too stiff for that (especially if you have a 4mm piece), but do try to make a continuous cut from top to bottom. Obviously use a metal ruler and thick work gloves aren't a bad idea either... Just keep cutting in the first cut and gradually deepen it until you cut through. Then cut your eye at the base but leave enough so that when you stretch it, it doesn't rip through the eye. I place the fall blank on a hook and gently pull to take some of the stretch out of it, then I skive all four corners (pretty straightforward so far). You can even skive off the edges around the eye of the fall if you want, just be careful not to slice through the eye doing it. Next I attach to the tip of the fall what can best be described as a very long cracker, about a foot and a half. I wrap my gloved hand around the "cracker" and with the other hand, I rub in a lot of plaiting soap along the entire length of the fall, and a wrap a loop of leather around the fall and pull that loop of leather up and down the fall while the gloved hand is pulling it taught. What this does is two things; it rounds off the fall even more than skiving alone and it takes a lot of the stretch out the leather. The heat from the friction of the rubbing with the loop of leather also helps the fall to absorb the plaiting soap and turns the stiff whitehide into very supple leather that is ready for cracking. When you are happy with the results, either undo the long cracker from the tip or simply snip the tip off. Your fall will have gained a few inches in the process and you may find it a bit too long (or maybe not...) for your taste. If so, then you have the luxury of being able to re-define where the tip and the base of the fall are going to be. If your fall has stretched 4 inches for example, you may find that you would prefer to have the base start a bit lower to have a thinner base, or vise-versa. The point is that doing this really prepares the leather and make a really supple and round fall, which never hurts. The reason for the long cracker is so that you have something you can grab a hold of while the fall is all slick with plaiting soap and it also lets you round the fall from the base to the very tip, which is harder to do if you have to wrap the fall around your hand to hold onto it. This technique really allows you to pull a lot on the fall (another good reason for work gloves...) and this is what takes a lot of the stretch out of it. Not everyone rounds off their falls, though I don't know why, it really only takes a few minutes to do and produces such amazing results. I've rounded fall this way that end at 2.5-3mm at the tip and the cracker was only a bit smaller so the thing really keeps on tapering until the very end.

Anyway thanks for your support; I'll be sure to let you know when it comes off the press hehehe
Cheers,


Franco

[riku1914]

I was told that they only had one full piece ( 6"x36" ) of fall leather left, and it was closer to the 3mm mark, so he included another

piece of fall leather, that he was not able to get a full 6" out of that is thicker. Since with that order I'm getting a 32 oz. tub of

pecards, I'll just that for the fall greasing/rounding. I have plenty of it

Anyway, thanks again for the information, and definitely let me know when and where I can buy your book

[nammann]

Hi All,

I would suggest using just plaiting soap, When I first started whipmaking all I had was a tub of Fiebings leather dressing and thats what i used and I found that it made the strands harder to get a good grip and I think its a waste of good leather dressing to use for the plaiting and it puts too much into the leather making the leather weigh more, now you can use leather dressing on the bolsters and I have done that sometimes but I mostly use homemade plaiting soap for the entire whip and i do not use any leather dressing in any of my whips, with the plaiting soap you get enough fat into the leather. Since the plaiting soap has fat in it already there is no need to use leather dressing. I would not suggest soaking the hide in water, I have never done this before and I dont see a need to do it. With the plaiting soap it already has water in it with the soap and fat. I always cover the whole hide both sides with plaiting soap before I cut anything. I do this because I do not like working with a dry hide plus I feel if you put some fat into a dry hide before you start to stretch it to find the stretchy parts you can work more of the stretch out and the fibers of the hide will not be as brittle as with a dry piece of leather when its stretched. After I rub in the plaiting soap I let it sit for a little to let it soak in and then I will start to take the stretch out of it. I always find it better to grease your hides and stretch them a day before I use it then by the time im ready to cut the cores, bellies and overlay the hide will dry out a little and its perfect for whipmaking then. I also add plaiting soap while I am plaiting and also to the bolsters before I plait the bellies. The good thing with making and using your own plaiting soap instead of buying already made leather dressing and using that is its cheaper and you can make alot of it and it goes a long way. Just make sure you use an Electric mixer to mix it up to get all the lumps out and you should be good to go.

Hope this helps

Take care,

Nick

[riku1914]

Hey guys just a little update, I now have all my tools and materials except for the leather ( going out of town next week so I'll order

the day I leave to get it in just after )

I just got my splitter also, took am minute to figure it out but now I'm ready to go.

As for plaiting soap, it seems that even though I had originally planned to try plaiting with dressing and with soap, I think I should

give into everything everyone has said about how great it is and go ahead and make some. It's not like it's expensive.

Now the 32 oz. thing of pecards I bought from midwestwhips will last much longer than originally planned

I'll be using the recipe found in David Morgan's "braiding fine leather" , have any of you used/use this recipe, and do you have a

better one?

[Canuck Digger]

It's a good recipe and there is nothing wrong with it. Having said this, I also add (on the recommendations of a friend) some lavender essential oil, to discourage bugs from attacking the leather (eucalyptus or tee tree also work well) and the combination of lavender and the soap give a nice fragrance (which fades by the time the whip is plaited). How much? I put about half a tea spoon. Some also add a bit of beeswax, but don't put too much if you do (1-2 table spoon).

Or you can just keep to the original recipe )

[riku1914]

I don't want to complicate things too much my first leather whip. I think I'll use just the original recipe.

This is just a side note but I was looking over a stock whip I made out of nylon I had left over ( when I started I didn't know how to

properly attach keepers and what not so that area isn't the most stock whip ish ) but I wanted to say that I can finally not tell

which side I was plaiting on, and when I look at it upside down I can't tell the difference, the thing I was looking for in my early

plaiting time was trying to make everything look nice and even, and I never got it all the way, well I finally have it and am ready to

go on my leather whip.

Thanks for everyone's help as always, I can't believe I didn't think to look for a forum longer ago .