Few quick questions

[riku1914]

I have a few questions, so i'll put them real quick:

which of the following is better for doing bindings and binding on a bolster :

http://springfieldleather.com/store/pro ... ral%2C8oz/

http://search.3riversarchery.com/search ... cial+sinew

or one of those 3, the first one is more expensive, but who knows, it may be much better.




Another question, do you guys taper your strands all the way down, or only for the last few ft. or so? ( i know handle strands

stay same )



Another, how do you determine if something needs to be added to the handle to balance the whip? You can't exactly weigh it,

but maybe that would work? Advice please.


Another, how thick of leather do you use for your falls?

What is a recommended thickness to use for cowhide leather strands? I was thinking 1.2 MAYBE to 1.4 mm, I don't wanna go

much lower because much lower and you're using kangaroo thickness, which just so happens to be 4 times stronger


I may add more later as they come to mind.

[louiefoxx]

The easiest way to figure out if a whip needs anything to the handle is to crack it before you put the knot foundation on. If you crack it and the lash is too heavy, put a bit of lead in the handle. Crack it again, do you like how it cracks? If not adjust by adding or removing lead.

The best way to find out how much weight (if any) it to experiment and keep track of your results.

Also don't get hung up on the "balance point" of the whip. A lot of people on the internet balance a coiled whip on their finger to show the "balance point". Balancing a whip on your finger looks good in a picture and add some hype in the text and it makes a great ebay ad, but it's not an accurate way to find the balance point. I wrote an article on why that's an incorrect way to find it, you can read that at: http://bullwhips.org/?p=3950.

Louie

[riku1914]

Thanks, liked that. Yeah i've seen a lot of things on youtube, not necessarily as crazy as that, but people not knowing at all

what they're talking about. Indy whips with herringbone handles, pineapple turks heads, tiny heel knots, it makes me laugh.

[Marhala]

Hi, with vegetable tanned cowhide as well as chrome tanned cowhide (I made a few whips out of it), a great thickness for leather strands is around 1.5mm. It is almost as thin as you can get with it, and will keep most of its strength, depending on what kind of point you put on your whip.

I've seen people use leather from around 3-5mm thick for falls. I prefer the thicker leather, because I think it continues the taper of the whip better. Lighter falls jerk around too much for my taste, and I prefer them a bit heavier to transfer more energy.

You don't really need to bind the bolster. Binding the bolster at the handle if you're making a bullwhip is the most you need. It's easier to keep it in your hands and prevent the seam from moving, and let the plaiting hold it into place.

Something I found by accident, and which in turn found out later that most whipmakers do, is that you taper your strands from the thickest part of the whip up to about half its length. The second half, you just give the whip its taper by dropping strands (Australian practice vouches for ending the point in half the number of strands you have at its thickest part, i.e. 8-strand finishes in 4 or 6, 12-strand finishes in 6, 16-strand in 8, and so on). These strands remain the same width. Of course, if you were to start a whip at, let's say 12 strand and wanted to finish it at 12 strand too, then you would have to taper them continuously from butt to the point.

Hope this helps.

Aldo.

[riku1914]

Hi, with vegetable tanned cowhide as well as chrome tanned cowhide (I made a few whips out of it), a great thickness for leather strands is around 1.5mm. It is almost as thin as you can get with it, and will keep most of its strength, depending on what kind of point you put on your whip.

I've seen people use leather from around 3-5mm thick for falls. I prefer the thicker leather, because I think it continues the taper of the whip better. Lighter falls jerk around too much for my taste, and I prefer them a bit heavier to transfer more energy.

You don't really need to bind the bolster. Binding the bolster at the handle if you're making a bullwhip is the most you need. It's easier to keep it in your hands and prevent the seam from moving, and let the plaiting hold it into place.

Something I found by accident, and which in turn found out later that most whipmakers do, is that you taper your strands from the thickest part of the whip up to about half its length. The second half, you just give the whip its taper by dropping strands (Australian practice vouches for ending the point in half the number of strands you have at its thickest part, i.e. 8-strand finishes in 4 or 6, 12-strand finishes in 6, 16-strand in 8, and so on). These strands remain the same width. Of course, if you were to start a whip at, let's say 12 strand and wanted to finish it at 12 strand too, then you would have to taper them continuously from butt to the point.

Hope this helps.

Aldo.

Ok, i knew the dropping things, but thank you for letting me know about the taper. What about that artificial sinew? The one's

from 3 rivers are all 4 oz. , the one from the other place is 8oz. , but what about the #? i don't think 10 would be enough,

and 70 may be too much, so i'm thinking #40, what do you think?

[Marhala]

I'd like to try artificial sinew too, Riku. My sister will be in CA by night. I asked her to get me a good awl, some lacing needles and the sinew. In Tandy Leather, the description reads you can splice it, but don't really know how you do that.


ATB,

Aldo.

[riku1914]

I'd like to try artificial sinew too, Riku. My sister will be in CA by night. I asked her to get me a good awl, some lacing needles and the sinew. In Tandy Leather, the description reads you can splice it, but don't really know how you do that.


ATB,

Aldo.

I live about 20 miles from a tandy distribution place. I don't use them much though except for when they have sales because I

don't have their membership and i can get other places cheaper.

[kwad]

I use artificial sinew.
It is like broader, courser dental floss. Flat waxed thread.

All of the fibers that make up the thread run in one direction and are not braided together like string.

To split it, you just pull it apart.

[riku1914]

I use artificial sinew.
It is like broader, courser dental floss. Flat waxed thread.

All of the fibers that make up the thread run in one direction and are not braided together like string.

To split it, you just pull it apart.

what # do you think is best? I can get #10, #40 and #70, i think 10 would not be enough, and 70 looked pretty wide, so what

do you think about 40? Then again 70 may be fine?

[Canuck Digger]

Right. Ok, the first artificial sinew link seems good to me. I don't know this company but it looks like the same stuff as Tandy and that is pretty darn strong.

One hint though; you may want to wrap it around a solid piece of wood or metal so that when you pull on it, it is not compressing the cardboard cylinder it comes on... This will give you a lot more leverage to apply a great deal of pull.

Typically, strands are tapered to where the second belly ends, not necessarily to the halfway point, though the two are often very close if not one and the same. It's important to understand that the reason the strands are only tapered to that point is because the taper is then achieved by dropping strands into the core, and this allows the overlay strands to stay relatively wide, so as to bear the stress better than if one were to taper them to the point and stay with the same number as at the beginning of the whip...

If we are talking about kangaroo leather, the reason many end their whips in six strands like David Morgan, is because kangaroo is very strong in tension, but not as much in resisting scuffs or abrasions, and by making the strands relatively wide at the point, where most of the abuse happens, you are making the strands stronger by virtue of their width. Why not end in four strands then, wouldn't that make them even wider and stronger, you might ask? Well for one, a round plait in six strands is a lot closer in look to a typical eight or twelve strand herringbone, and for another, with six strands, each strand is supported by two others and not just one as in a four plait. But if we were talking about a cowhide whip, then four plait might be an option because it is more resistant to scuffs than kangaroo... It all depends on what you are going for.

As far as balance goes, there are different schools of thought on this, and what Louie said is correct. Some like lead in the butt, some don't. I do. I like it because there is the small matter of inertia playing into all of this, and having a bit of a counter weight WILL lessen the pull on your hand when the whip cracks. BUT this is not a big factor in HOW WELL the whip will crack... A well-tapered whip with no lead in the butt will crack easily and a badly tapered whip with a ton in the butt will fight you all the way. Having said that, because E=MC2, having a bit more weight at the handle end of the whip means you are imparting a bit more energy into a throw, so more energy will travel down the thong to the cracker, which brings us back to how efficient is the shape of the thong at transmitting said energy to the tip. In whipmaking we are very fortunate that form serves function, so all things being equal (meaning a good internal construction), a whip with a nice linear taper will probably crack with less effort than one with an irregular or sudden taper. So it is easy to "see" if a whip is heading in the right direction while you are making it.

As for how much lead one should put in the butt of a whip, preferences aside, it depends on the weight of the thong, which is typically determined by its length. But not always; a six foot long whip with a shot loaded thong may be the same weight as an eight foot long whip that has no shot loading. So it really is a matter of experience. Also important, is the purity of the "lead" you are using; alloys may be lighter than pure lead, so while two strips of lead may look the same, they may actually be very different in density... But I think roughly 1" thick should be alright for an average whip. Of course this all depends on the feel you are looking for, so it's just a guesstimate really.

Another concern is the fall. The fall should be at its widest point (where it attaches to the thong) equal or slightly smaller than the thong itself. Measure width + thickness/2=X. This "X" is the number you use to compare the thong to a fall. The fall should have a good taper too. A fall with little or a bad taper will not transmit the energy well to the cracker and will feel point heavy. I've tapered falls to where they were about 3mm and very well stretched and rounded and it was so easy to crack that whip. The length of a fall is important too; too long and you lose too much energy, too short and a proper loop cannot form at the end of the throw. Neither is good. This is also a factor of the length of the whip as well as the mass; a short whip with a very fine point may not need a fall quite as long or thick as a massive whip, which has enough energy in it that it can stand to have a bigger fall.

Whipmaking is like making a trail of dominoes; everything affects the rest and understanding how each piece affects the others is vital to making good whips. Otherwise you are just following somebody else's recipe and are stuck using a formula you don't understand, and that's no fun.

I hope some of this is helpful.
Cheers,


Franco

[riku1914]

Right. Ok, the first artificial sinew link seems good to me. I don't know this company but it looks like the same stuff as Tandy and that is pretty darn strong.

One hint though; you may want to wrap it around a solid piece of wood or metal so that when you pull on it, it is not compressing the cardboard cylinder it comes on... This will give you a lot more leverage to apply a great deal of pull.

Typically, strands are tapered to where the second belly ends, not necessarily to the halfway point, though the two are often very close if not one and the same. It's important to understand that the reason the strands are only tapered to that point is because the taper is then achieved by dropping strands into the core, and this allows the overlay strands to stay relatively wide, so as to bear the stress better than if one were to taper them to the point and stay with the same number as at the beginning of the whip...

If we are talking about kangaroo leather, the reason many end their whips in six strands like David Morgan, is because kangaroo is very strong in tension, but not as much in resisting scuffs or abrasions, and by making the strands relatively wide at the point, where most of the abuse happens, you are making the strands stronger by virtue of their width. Why not end in four strands then, wouldn't that make them even wider and stronger, you might ask? Well for one, a round plait in six strands is a lot closer in look to a typical eight or twelve strand herringbone, and for another, with six strands, each strand is supported by two others and not just one as in a four plait. But if we were talking about a cowhide whip, then four plait might be an option because it is more resistant to scuffs than kangaroo... It all depends on what you are going for.

As far as balance goes, there are different schools of thought on this, and what Louie said is correct. Some like lead in the butt, some don't. I do. I like it because there is the small matter of inertia playing into all of this, and having a bit of a counter weight WILL lessen the pull on your hand when the whip cracks. BUT this is not a big factor in HOW WELL the whip will crack... A well-tapered whip with no lead in the butt will crack easily and a badly tapered whip with a ton in the butt will fight you all the way. Having said that, because E=MC2, having a bit more weight at the handle end of the whip means you are imparting a bit more energy into a throw, so more energy will travel down the thong to the cracker, which brings us back to how efficient is the shape of the thong at transmitting said energy to the tip. In whipmaking we are very fortunate that form serves function, so all things being equal (meaning a good internal construction), a whip with a nice linear taper will probably crack with less effort than one with an irregular or sudden taper. So it is easy to "see" if a whip is heading in the right direction while you are making it.

As for how much lead one should put in the butt of a whip, preferences aside, it depends on the weight of the thong, which is typically determined by its length. But not always; a six foot long whip with a shot loaded thong may be the same weight as an eight foot long whip that has no shot loading. So it really is a matter of experience. Also important, is the purity of the "lead" you are using; alloys may be lighter than pure lead, so while two strips of lead may look the same, they may actually be very different in density... But I think roughly 1" thick should be alright for an average whip. Of course this all depends on the feel you are looking for, so it's just a guesstimate really.

Another concern is the fall. The fall should be at its widest point (where it attaches to the thong) equal or slightly smaller than the thong itself. Measure width + thickness/2=X. This "X" is the number you use to compare the thong to a fall. The fall should have a good taper too. A fall with little or a bad taper will not transmit the energy well to the cracker and will feel point heavy. I've tapered falls to where they were about 3mm and very well stretched and rounded and it was so easy to crack that whip. The length of a fall is important too; too long and you lose too much energy, too short and a proper loop cannot form at the end of the throw. Neither is good. This is also a factor of the length of the whip as well as the mass; a short whip with a very fine point may not need a fall quite as long or thick as a massive whip, which has enough energy in it that it can stand to have a bigger fall.

Whipmaking is like making a trail of dominoes; everything affects the rest and understanding how each piece affects the others is vital to making good whips. Otherwise you are just following somebody else's recipe and are stuck using a formula you don't understand, and that's no fun.

I hope some of this is helpful.
Cheers,


Franco

It was very helpful, I've made a couple whips, one out of nylon, two out of vinyl ( didn't like the vinyl ) and I am now about to

start using leather. One other thing I have, is a whip suppose to be cracked with the seams facing down ( direction you see

when plaiting ) or the other way, or is it supposed to be fine either which way. The vinyl I used isn't very good and it's stiff

very stiff so I have no way of really knowing?

Thanks for your answers they did help with some things.

edit: also what size ( diameter ) of steel do you use for the handle, and what type of steel do you recommend? Bernie said he

uses spring steel but I cannot find any spring steel rods anywhere. I've found plain steel coated in zinc, but that's just about it.

Also how far does each belly / bolster go on an indy whip? I know for the last little bit what you are plaiting over is just a couple

of strands, but for the rest of it i'd like to know what you guys use for inner dimensions.

[Canuck Digger]

What you are referring to is called the "spine" of a whip, or the natural curve a whip has. You can use it with the spine, so facing down, or against the spine. Both are ok and make different actions; for example if you use a whip against the spine, it will tend to make a loop closer to the handle, which can be useful in certain tricks. Neither is good or bad really, as long as you do not force a whip to bend too sharply, say by bending it with your hands... If you want your whip to be as flexible in one direction as in the other, simply alternate how you use it and in time, it will loosen up fairly equally, though maybe not entirely so. This is the result of a combination of factors, not the least of which is the human factor...

As far as the size of the handle foundation, that all depends what you are going for and what size leather you use. If you are trying to make an Indy whip, with 1mm +/- kangaroo, and 2-3 oz kip hide, then a 9mm nail (about 3/8"), 8 inches long is standard fair. Spring steel is specially made and can be a bit tricky to find, but if you are making a bullwhip with an 8" handle, it is of no consequence; in other words it's over-kill. Spring steel only becomes relevant if you make a whip with a longer handle; remember that bullwhips are not usually used with as much wrist force as stockwhips and are often used with little or no wrist action. I believe spring steel came into play because it was used as handle reinforcements for cane stockwhip handle, so the cane could be shaved down very thinly toward the end of the stock, without fear of it breaking during use. As such, it is more of a stockwhip thing than a bullwhip, since bullwhips typically have short handles and undergo very little leverage force. Like I said, on a longer handle bullwhip, maybe 12-14", spring steel may very well be relevant, but not so much on an Indy, so don't worry about that too much. Just go to the hardware store and get yourself a long nail and you're in business.

As for the core, well that too is a matter of preference. In whipmaking, everything is. But for an Indy-type bullwhip, you could start with a core that extends roughly 1/4 the length of the whip beyond the handle (not counting the fall or cracker of course). If you are making an 8' whip with an 8" handle then your core would have to (roughly) extend past the handle 24". This is a rough estimate as every whipmaker has his or her own style for this, this makes the difference between the whips of two whipmakers. The longer the core, the more weight is brought toward the tip. This affects the rate of taper as well as the action of the whip. I would be remiss if I pretended to have THE formula for this. I have my own style and my own preferences, and my own experience through which I view these things, but then so does everybody else.

So if the core is 1/4 of the length BEYOND the handle, with the leftover strands carried out to roughly the 1/2 of the whip, then the first bolster covers this and the second belly is plaited to the end of the first bolster, with the second bolster running anywhere from 3/4 of the whip to 4/5 +/-. Again these are not hard and fast rules, merely indications to be adjusted to your taste.

David Morgan does explain this stuff in his book BTW. A worthwhile investment if you plan on making whips... Everybody does things their own way, just keep in mind that the goal is to keep things tapering, and to maintain this, for every bit you put in, an equal bit has be removed, otherwise the taper will be messed-up.

There you go.
Have fun,

Franco

[Marhala]

I use artificial sinew.
It is like broader, courser dental floss. Flat waxed thread.

All of the fibers that make up the thread run in one direction and are not braided together like string.

To split it, you just pull it apart.

Thanks a lot, kwad. I'll be anxiously waiting for the artificial sinew to experiment with it.

Franco, thank you so much for your explanations. They are always very thorough and clear! It is always a delight to read them.

ATB,

Aldo.

[riku1914]

What you are referring to is called the "spine" of a whip, or the natural curve a whip has. You can use it with the spine, so facing down, or against the spine. Both are ok and make different actions; for example if you use a whip against the spine, it will tend to make a loop closer to the handle, which can be useful in certain tricks. Neither is good or bad really, as long as you do not force a whip to bend too sharply, say by bending it with your hands... If you want your whip to be as flexible in one direction as in the other, simply alternate how you use it and in time, it will loosen up fairly equally, though maybe not entirely so. This is the result of a combination of factors, not the least of which is the human factor...

As far as the size of the handle foundation, that all depends what you are going for and what size leather you use. If you are trying to make an Indy whip, with 1mm +/- kangaroo, and 2-3 oz kip hide, then a 9mm nail (about 3/8"), 8 inches long is standard fair. Spring steel is specially made and can be a bit tricky to find, but if you are making a bullwhip with an 8" handle, it is of no consequence; in other words it's over-kill. Spring steel only becomes relevant if you make a whip with a longer handle; remember that bullwhips are not usually used with as much wrist force as stockwhips and are often used with little or no wrist action. I believe spring steel came into play because it was used as handle reinforcements for cane stockwhip handle, so the cane could be shaved down very thinly toward the end of the stock, without fear of it breaking during use. As such, it is more of a stockwhip thing than a bullwhip, since bullwhips typically have short handles and undergo very little leverage force. Like I said, on a longer handle bullwhip, maybe 12-14", spring steel may very well be relevant, but not so much on an Indy, so don't worry about that too much. Just go to the hardware store and get yourself a long nail and you're in business.

As for the core, well that too is a matter of preference. In whipmaking, everything is. But for an Indy-type bullwhip, you could start with a core that extends roughly 1/4 the length of the whip beyond the handle (not counting the fall or cracker of course). If you are making an 8' whip with an 8" handle then your core would have to (roughly) extend past the handle 24". This is a rough estimate as every whipmaker has his or her own style for this, this makes the difference between the whips of two whipmakers. The longer the core, the more weight is brought toward the tip. This affects the rate of taper as well as the action of the whip. I would be remiss if I pretended to have THE formula for this. I have my own style and my own preferences, and my own experience through which I view these things, but then so does everybody else.

So if the core is 1/4 of the length BEYOND the handle, with the leftover strands carried out to roughly the 1/2 of the whip, then the first bolster covers this and the second belly is plaited to the end of the first bolster, with the second bolster running anywhere from 3/4 of the whip to 4/5 +/-. Again these are not hard and fast rules, merely indications to be adjusted to your taste.

David Morgan does explain this stuff in his book BTW. A worthwhile investment if you plan on making whips... Everybody does things their own way, just keep in mind that the goal is to keep things tapering, and to maintain this, for every bit you put in, an equal bit has be removed, otherwise the taper will be messed-up.

There you go.
Have fun,

Franco

Thanks! I have a bunch of 10-12" long 3/8" steel nails in my shop that's i've been cutting to size and using so I guess I'll using those.

Well for the most part my questions have been answered , thank you guys so much!

[kwad]

Thanks a lot, kwad. I'll be anxiously waiting for the artificial sinew to experiment with it.

ATB,

Aldo.

[riku1914]

I think i'll be using kip hide from Le Prevo if the shipping isn't too outlandish. If not, I'll be using some veg. tanned tooling hide

I found @ tandy that's a really good price. I'd much rather use the kip but if shipping is really bad then there's no way.

If shipping isn't too bad, but it's not fairly cheap, I'll probably order 2 or 3 hides. To last me a few whips.

[louiefoxx]

riku1914,

Tandy has calf on sale for $4.99 a foot right now, so if you haven't ordered other stuff yet, it might be a good cheap-ish way to go. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/sear ... 54-02.aspx

I made these whips out of it http://bullwhips.org/?p=4398...it's no kangaroo...but it works.

Louie

[riku1914]

riku1914,

Tandy has calf on sale for $4.99 a foot right now, so if you haven't ordered other stuff yet, it might be a good cheap-ish way to go. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/sear ... 54-02.aspx

I made these whips out of it http://bullwhips.org/?p=4398...it's no kangaroo...but it works.

Louie

.8mm is kinda thin for calf isn't it? I would think that 1.0-1.2 would be better, I would have to split it down to .8 for a uniform

thickness. But you said you made them so I suppose it's fine.

[louiefoxx]

2 - 2.5 oz leather is .8 - 1 mm thick, so you could still split it down to .8mm

Louie

[riku1914]

2 - 2.5 oz leather is .8 - 1 mm thick, so you could still split it down to .8mm

Louie

I know that, that's what I'm saying, i would think .8 mm is kinda thin for calf. kangaroo it'd be fine. When i put the 1.0 - 1.2 I was

talking about what I would want.

Though since it will probably be cheaper than buying from le prevo ( shipping ) I think I'll try to grab one.

Should I not pull as hard as I normally would on these? ( I plait pretty tight )