Deborah Nadoolman: Raiders Hat Had Chin Strap???

[Michaelson]

Sadly, at that time, ALL wide brim fedoras that were sold were referred to as 'Australian' models, so her saying that really didn't prove much of anything one way or the other. It has been long known that HJ and Akubra made the slouch military hat such as the one you got from ebay (which is a very nice one, by the way).

I have one in my own collection, but WAY too small for my head....complete with badge. Not sure why I keep it either, but it's a very nice hat, that's for sure.
(Take that back, YES I do know why I keep it...it was gift! )


Regards! Michaelson

[Canada Jones]

I'll take facts over theories anytime.

What still is a mystery to me in all of this is the turn. I can't imagine the Steven would think/know to ask for it when he ordered the hats unless he had seen the turn on another hat.Why would one want that on a film hat? Also, since it seems to be on all(?) the hats used in Raiders it had to be something deliberately done to all the hats either when he ordered them or later by someone else. I would think if Steven asked for or liked the turn he would have insisted on it for every Indy film. This makes me think the turn was not from him. If Ford came up with the turn then again why was there no turn in the other films? Does this suggest that Kelly Kimball or Deborah came up with that since they only did the first two films?

Also, what of the stories of Ford trying on a bunch of hats at Bermans? Where did these hats come from and does the visit to the hat shop with Steven mean that none of the hats he tried on were appropriate?
Wondering.

Canada

[Hollowpond]

I have long held the (wildly unpopular) opinion that the turn was accidental. If it was so crucial to the look of the film hat then why was it abandoned after the first installment?

[Canada Jones]

If it was accidental though why was it on more than one hat and whose accident was it?
Canada

[Michaelson]

I'll always believe it was Ford's 'accident'.

I'd say in order to keep the hat on his head as it began to loosen up in the desert heat, he had to give it a slight 'twist' on his head to keep it tight, hense the 'turn'.

Regards! Michaelson

[Canada Jones]

Are there any scenes in Raiders where the hat does not have a turn? Did all the hats (including the ones worn by the stunt performers) have a turn?
Canada

[Hollowpond]

Most say Nadoolman.

[Hollowpond]

I'll always believe it was Ford's 'accident'.

I'd say in order to keep the hat on his head as it began to loosen up in the desert heat, he had to give it a slight 'twist' on his head to keep it tight, hense the 'turn'.

Regards! Michaelson

That's the story that makes the most sense to me...

[Chewbacca Jones]

I don't entirely believe in the turn. I've seen soft hats without a turn do that exact thing on long oval and other irregular head shapes. A professional hatter has told me that every hat, given the opportunity, will wear differently on different heads. I don't even have that strange of a head shape, and a regular oval, and some of my own hats do interesting things.

I know, the top of the crown looks like it supports the turn, but I've seen non-turn hats look that way. And the bow placement proves nothing - it could be stitched on at any location.

I'm not saying the turn is impossible, just not a "lock." If it is real, I figure it had more to do with Ford finding the right "seat" on his noggin, or keeping it on as Michaelson suggests.

Canada - Steve Delk tells me that at least one scene shows a hat with no turn, as well as a hat with a different turn. Most of the supposedly turned hats appear to have been turned, then bashed to center with Harrison's face. At least one looks like it was bashed first, then turned. At least, that's what our resident Hat Guru told me, thought in slightly more eloquent words.

[fifthchamber]

I'd also argue that the chance of it being an "intended" move, rather than something that found it's way in by accident is increased by the fact that it doesn't get used again in any of the following movies... It's quite clear that for Raiders they jumped into a design that was special (even for that hat shape) and chose NOT to follow it again in any of the following movies... Steve Delk's comment about them turning down HIS Raiders (as it was a "parody") makes that rather more concrete surely?

If they'd added the turn, and THOUGHT about having it, rather than just going with "whatever", it would have been big enough to have been the subject of focus in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th movie... But there's nothing to show that it was even noticed by the crew.. (Indeed, anyone outside of us and perhaps Fedora fanatics..)..

It is an interesting note... But I'd agree that Ford trying to make it work at that time makes more sense than a deliberate request or styling made with intent from the start...

[Canada Jones]

These are very persuasive arguments. Michaelson's comment about turning to keep the hat on in the heat makes great sense or as fifthchamber put it - Ford trying to make it work, rings true. I have never heard or read any interview with Deborah that suggested she put it in or even knew about it. I think the turn is something noticed by Fedora fanatics as suggested. I remember reading a post by Steve Delk where he had sold a hat to a guy who requested the Raiders bash. When the guy got the hat he wrote Steve and commented how he was surprised that Steve's hat had a turn in it. He obviously had no idea this was something in the original hat. Thankfully for Steve (who was prepared I believe to refund this guy his money) when the turn in the movie hat was explained the guy thought that was great and kept the hat. So yes, I think most people did not notice it. I know I didn't until I came here.

Chewie - Your comments about things Steve said were also very helpful. Thanks. I would like to do more research on this but I know Steve is one person who would know about the different turns in the different scenes.

best
Canada

[Hollowpond]

And while I think it translated great to film (portraying a well loved hat that had the ever loving snot kicked out of it)...I don't like the turn. It's fit feels funny and not comfortable at all (even with Marc's sweatbands, and they are made of CLOUDS!!), and with a dimensionally cut brim (on ME as this is MY OPINION) it just looks silly.
One of the things that jumped out at me when I received my AB deluxe is the fact that it is soooo floppy and soft. My brim sometimes (unintentionally) takes on the characteristic swoop that is generally attributed to the turn. Another thing I notice on both of my handmade fedoras (one Indy, one true vintage styled with a non-dimensional brim) is that the bow knot on neither one of them aligns itself perfectly with my ear.
I still say the turn was pure serendipity...

Travis

[Hollowpond]

Oh, and one more thing...Do any of our hatters require the distance of their ear from the front of the head in their measurements to make a custom hat to ensure that the bow perfectly lines up with the ear? I'm pretty sure they don't. And if a bow knot is not calculated to sit over the ear, then its placement really doesn't prove a whole lot.
Just my $0.10...

[HDRnR]

Hollowpond, the felt on my HJ Aussie hat is exactly like you described "floppy and soft". If the Poet was made of the same felt this could definitly be the case with the swoop being somewhat natural.

[Mike]

Unless you're your own grandfather?

Now that's a silly song.

[Hollowpond]

Oh, and one more thing...Do any of our hatters require the distance of their ear from the front of the head in their measurements to make a custom hat to ensure that the bow perfectly lines up with the ear? I'm pretty sure they don't. And if a bow knot is not calculated to sit over the ear, then its placement really doesn't prove a whole lot.
Just my $0.10...

Hmmm... There are certain truths to the layout of the head. The eyes are centered vertically. The nose is at the 1/4 and the mouth is at the 1/8. Likewise the ears line up with the eyes, i.e. they're centered. Unless you're your own grandfather?

Or if you are this guy...

HEY YOU GUYS!!!!

[Hollowpond]

The argument for bow knot placement supporting the turn is based on fractions of inches. I know the general layout of the head, _... I just can't help it, I am a Scientist (by profession as well as by nature), and I have to base my theories in fact and not truth (where have I heard that before?).

The FACT is that bow knot position varies fractions of inches from hat to hat, even from the same hat vendor I would hypothesize. The FACT is that ear position varies fractions of inches from head to head, even though the topography of the human head is roughly the same. Do I think the turn does exist on screen? Yes, of course, its pretty easy to tell when a dimensional cut is wonky. Do I think that bow knot placement is a valid argument for the turn existing or even to determine the degree of turn? No, I do not. And I do KNOW that other factors can cause a brim to warp. Mine does it about half the time in an unturned hat.

I guess I've always been more Scully than Mulder...

Travis
ps. I'm not too much Scully though. If I was, I would NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE!

[Michaelson]

One can only wonder what Ford/Spielberg/Lucas think when they read these kinds of discussions.

In a work situation like a shoot, I'm sure all they said was 'Hey, Harrison, get your hat on and let's get this shot!', or, 'Hey, Harrison, put on your hat...let's get the lightning angle right. Give your hat a twist. That's better. And.....ACTION!"

I doubt there was ANY discussion as to where the bow was in relationship to his ear.

Heck, in the Cairo street fight, his bag flipped over again and again, buckle in front....then next camera angle it was on the back, meaning the bag was put on backwards. Why worry about the hat location on the head but for lightning reasons.

It was a hat. It was on his head. Check the box! Set up for the next shot.....keep moving.

That said, if you pay ANY attention to the other Indy films, LC the most, you'll note that the hat brims are what seemed to change from hat to hat....and once again, due to needing to get lighting onto Ford's face. Rather than twisting the hat around his head, they just trimmed the brim to allow more light on his face for that particular scene.

More food for thought.

Regards! Michaelson

[Tennessee Smith]

That said, if you pay ANY attention to the other Indy films, LC the most, you'll note that the hat brims are what seemed to change from hat to hat....and once again, due to needing to get lighting onto Ford's face. Rather than twisting the hat around his head, they just trimmed the brim to allow more light on his face for that particular scene.

More food for thought.

Regards! Michaelson

Talk about opening Pandora's box with that loaded statement M!!!

With this crowd we'll have guys disecting every camera shot to get the right demensional brim cut for a certain sceen under a certain lighting

Well, at least the hatters will have plenty of business coming their way now!!!!

[Michaelson]

[Hollowpond]

Oh, I'm not angry or bent! I was just yanking your chain, _! I thought you would have picked up on that nuance is certainly lost in the typed word...
As to the science, I was only referring to the way my mind works (when it works at all...) If anything I am simply pointing out how rediculous it is to analyze something so organic (or artistic if you'd rather).
No, I'm afraid I couldn't get bent about this stuff if I wanted to.

[Chewbacca Jones]

As far as bow placement is concerned, Hollowpond, I don't know that most hatters consider the ear at all when they put it on. I think they just try to place it centered on the side as relates to the hat. Assuming they even place it on the side. Either way, I own (and have owned) many hats, both factory and custom, vintage and new. The knot of the bows are generally within an inch of my ear, one way or the other, but nowhere near consistent. I even have a hat that I'd have to turn the OTHER way for the bow to line up with my ear.

And while we're talking about details that don't prove much, a dimensional cut doesn't prove a turn, either. I can't tell you how many crooked cuts I've seen in my time. I once even got a straw panama with a wonky dimensional brim!

The only way I would ever completely believe either position - turn or no turn - would be if I got the answer from somebody who was there and would have been in a position to know and care to remember. In the meantime, the turn is, to me, much like costuming movie magic. It's what we do in an attempt to get the look we want.

[Hollowpond]

As far as bow placement is concerned, Hollowpond, I don't know that most hatters consider the ear at all when they put it on. .

My point exactly!

Its a lonely road we walk, Chewie...a lonely road.

Travis

[garytelecastor]

I admit it, until I came to this site I had not heard of the "Turn".
Can someone please explain what this is about and maybe
direct me to some pictures where I can see the difference
between turn or not turn.
Thanks

[fifthchamber]

The hat is put on as normal, then turned slightly to the right of the wearer, creating a "ripple" effect in the brim, making it ride a touch unevenly around the head... The crown crease is then put in as normal (straight) so that the brim seems "twisted" somewhat.. (Or "turned", hence the name)... As for pictures, I don't have time to find them now, but have a look at Raiders.. You'll see the turn clearest in the Streets of Cairo scenes... Especially the bar after Marion has died...

John Penman here also has some great videos about how he works the turn in to hats, and those will explain the process far better than I can in words... Check here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJKQVCgeZ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[garytelecastor]

Thanks.

[Indiana Jeff]

Also see this link. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's the Fedora FAQ thread stickied at the top of the Fedora section.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

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