Pyro's L.C. Webley

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:39 am

The Houston Gun Collectors Association held thier show this weekend. My father and I went to the show looking for parts. I was looking for a front site to my S&W and he was looking for parts for his Colt 1911.

While walking around I spotted 2 British Enfields for $225 & 300. I got to thinking finding a Webley would be really neat. At another table, there were 2 Webleys in 38 S&W for about $200-250. My father catches up with me and suggests I take a look at table D6.

I walk over there and a private dealer has on his table a Webley .455 MKVI. I looked at it and it seemed to be in good condition and then I saw the price....$165!!

I could not believe it. I was thinking I already had the holster and this would be the perfect match.

The action is good and all the serial numbers match. The parts show normal wear but nothing is broken. The barrel is in great shape. And, when I got it home it appears to have been reamed out to fit the .45 ACP.

As a closing note, when I showed some collectors my Smith, they didn't seem interested in it. One of them said that I ruined a perfectly good gun by cutting the barrel down to 4 inches.

After my Webley purchase, I was getting offers left and right. One guy offered to triple what ever I paid for it. Now I was "approachable." Funny how things work like that.

Cheers,
Pyro.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:40 am

No offense, because it may just be the lighting or the camera flash, but the barrel appears to be a little rusty. Maybe a bit of mild corrosion. The back of the cylinder looks to be in very good shape, though. Kudos on your new score!

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:40 am

There's no rust. Is "spotty" from age but the metal itself is in good shape.

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:18 am

Pyroxene, my friend...what a find you made!!!! Getting it for that price was an all-time bargain!!! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, though...can't wait to see it in person! And don't worry about what others say about your '37 S&W...it's not a "collectible" Smith & Wesson anyway (we all couldn't afford them if they were!).

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:49 am

RonC wrote:And don't worry about what others say about your '37 S&W...it's not a "collectible" Smith & Wesson anyway (we all couldn't afford them if they were!).

I am not worried. I just laugh. If they knew the market and demand for guns like that, they would be converting them theirselves.

Different fields of interest. They saw my Lee Keepler holster and thought I was trying to sell it.

When I knew they weren't interested they would ask something like, "Why would you want a 4 inch Smith in the first place?" My response was, "So it would fit in the holster."

My dad and I found it very comical.

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:59 am

If any of those people ever carried a Smith & Wesson (particularly an N-Frame) for any length of time, they would understand WHY you want a 4" barrel!

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:52 pm

AMEN!!!!!! $165!??? WOW!!

I NEVER find prices like that when I'm looking for things, or haven't lately. CONGRATULATIONS!!

High regards. Michaelson

auntsugar · Post by **auntsugar** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:47 am

That is one of those "sweetheart" deals we all hope to stumble on eventually...
Congrats on that baby!!!

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:33 am

Thanks! I plan to clean it this weekend. Stay tuned for more pics.

Peacock's Eye · Post by **Peacock's Eye** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:10 am

Great pictures and an even greater deal on the Webley, my friend. Let us know how it shoots.

'Ohio' Erick · Post by **'Ohio' Erick** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:05 pm

Michaelson, Pyroxene, & others,

If I could, I would like to tap into the seemingly endless base of gun knowledge the members of this forum seem to possess.

I have been considering purchasing a Smith & Wesson Model 1917 .45 ACP Caliber Revolver - not so much to be Indy-esque, but more as an investment (and for the pure joy of shooting it!).

I found one that appears to be in pretty decent condition; there's some wear on the blueing in areas, but overall it "appears" to be in good shape. The asking price is $598.50. Is that a good price for this gun?

I am a little concerned that I cannot see any discernable, stamped, manufacturer's markings anywhere on the gun in the pictures.

All of the pictures are side views, however, so is it possible that the markings would be on the top of the barrel?

Also, my dad has a H & R "22 Special" Revolver (22 Long Rifle barrel), and I want to find out its year of production. There's no year of production stamped on it anywhere; there is a tiny "640" stamped on the back of the cylinder, but that's about it. Can you offer any help?

Thanks.

Warm Regards,

Erick

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:19 pm

Erick, $598 for a S&W 1917 is a little steep, unless this revolver was owned and used by someone in particular...and has the paperwork with it to prove it. Although they are getting harder to find, there are still 1917s and 1937s (Brazilian Contract 1917s) that can be bought for around $450.

There is one for sale on the Single Action Shooting Society Classified Wire that backs this up. The guy is asking $400 for it.

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:25 pm

Great find Pyro! I just ran across your pictures, and must say I'm jealous. I would have jumped on that find as well. How did it clean up?

IG

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:59 pm

Indiana Grendel wrote: How did it clean up?

IG

Thanks,

It was on the suggestion of Ron and Tip Burns to leave the patina as is. According to them, it adds more value to the gun keeping the orginal finish on it.

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:02 pm

'Ohio' Erick wrote: Also, my dad has a H & R "22 Special" Revolver (22 Long Rifle barrel), and I want to find out its year of production. There's no year of production stamped on it anywhere; there is a tiny "640" stamped on the back of the cylinder, but that's about it.

Without a model number, we might need some more info to find out about it.

For instance:

How long has your dad had it and where did he get it? This could help determine a latest possible production date.

Is there a serial number on the frame anywhere? Perhaps the butt of the gun. The 640 isn't long enough to be a serial number, most likely. It's not listed in either of the books I have here, but that could be a model number.

How many shots will the cylinder hold?

How long is the barrel? Measure from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel.

What does the handle look like? Wooden or hard rubber/plastic grips? Square or rounded at the butt?

What is the finish: blued or nickel?

These are just a few things that can be used to identify the firearm.

I've got an H&R .410 shotgun that belonged to my great-grandfather, made around 1908, near as I can figure. It's a great gun. It's got that rusty patinia to it that old guns get, but holds a fantastic pattern and is my favorite gun to shoot. I especially like to pull my own skeet and shoot one handed with it, as it's pretty small.

I love old firearms, so let's get some more info on yours. I may not be much help, but I'll enjoy trying.

Cheers!

IG

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:07 pm

Pyroxene wrote: Thanks,

It was on the suggestion of Ron and Tip Burns to leave the patina as is. According to them, it adds more value to the gun keeping the orginal finish on it.

Sounds good. I don't know about the value, but I happen to like the patina that old guns get. I just bought a 1902 Smith Hand Ejector in .38. It has that rust color to it, but other than going over it with some oil to protect it, I left it alone. I've got an old shotgun that I still shoot with regularly (see my above post) that has that, and it doesn't hurt it a bit.

Whether you shoot your Webley or just display it, it looks like a great piece and I hope you enjoy it!

IG

Swindiana · Post by **Swindiana** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:16 pm

I don't know much about guns but COOL find!

And I must say, you always take great pictures Pyro!
May I ask what equipment you use? (Nothing Indyesque from the 30's is my guess.)

Regards
Swindiana

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:39 pm

Swindiana wrote:And I must say, you always take great pictures Pyro!
May I ask what equipment you use? (Nothing Indyesque from the 30's is my guess.)

Regards
Swindiana

Thanks!

I use a stock Sony DSC-S75.

I love the Carl Zeiss lens. And, at 2048 X 1536, I am always amazed at the detail it can capture.

I then process it through JASC's Paintshop Pro v.7.04. Sometimes I have to color correct because of bad lighting. But other than that, the photos are cropped straight from the camera. It's easy to work with the photos and size them down and still look good when you have good photos to start with. If the detail is there, you are not afraid to use a little more compression because you know it's not going to be noticed much. And, the dial-up users appreciate it.

Objects like guns and such, I'll shoot against some white paper and then replace it with pure white in the program. Many times, I have to go around the edge with the freehand tool with a little feathering. The contrast really brings out the detal and draws your eye to it. I'll sometimes add some drop shadow for depth.

Pyro.

'Ohio' Erick · Post by **'Ohio' Erick** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:23 pm

Indiana Grendel,

Without a model number, we might need some more info to find out about it.

For instance:

How long has your dad had it and where did he get it? This could help determine a latest possible production date.

Is there a serial number on the frame anywhere? Perhaps the butt of the gun. The 640 isn't long enough to be a serial number, most likely. It's not listed in either of the books I have here, but that could be a model number.

How many shots will the cylinder hold?

How long is the barrel? Measure from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel.

What does the handle look like? Wooden or hard rubber/plastic grips? Square or rounded at the butt?

What is the finish: blued or nickel?

These are just a few things that can be used to identify the firearm.

Spoke to my dad tonight; he said he bought it off a guy he worked with in 1955 or 1956. He said he paid $20 for the pistol, holster, & gunbelt (that is to say, $20 for the whole set) and that they looked almost brand new when he bought them from his work associate (they may not have seen much use from the previous owner, or perhaps he just took really good care of them), so it was probably manufactured sometime in the early fifties or in the mid to late forties.

The pistol has a 6" barrel (22 Long Rifle CTG stamped on one side and H. & R. "22 SPECIAL" on the other side), a 9-shot cylinder, wood (possibly walnut-stained oak) grip that extends back where the 'bridge' between the thumb and forefinger would hit (technical jargon escapes me at the moment), original blued finish (with slight wear on the trigger guard, cylinder, and 'business' end of the barrel) and it is a "break-open" revolver.

And would you believe it, I actually found the serial number on it when I was talking with my dad on the phone.

I was turning it under the light, and telling my father I couldn't find a serial # on it anywhere when, suddenly, I saw it; it was on the butt of the frame - between the grips. Anyway, that number is #559640 so, apparently, that 640 on the back of the cylinder is the last three digits of the serial number - which tells me that it has the original cylinder the pistol was manufactured with.

Anything you can find on it would be greatly appreciated.

Incidentally, I found another 1917 S & W .45 ACP revolver - this one's only $345 (+ shipping).

It only has about 60% of the original blueing

, but otherwise looks to be in fine condition (has a walnut grip). I'll see if I can post a picture of it. Do you think that price sounds a little more in line with what I should expect to pay?

Once again, thanks for all the invaluable advice and assistance!

Warm Regards,

Erick

'Ohio' Erick · Post by **'Ohio' Erick** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:59 pm

O.K. Let's see if this works.

What do you think?

Warm Regards,

Erick

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:46 am

'Ohio' Erick wrote:Incidentally, I found another 1917 S & W .45 ACP revolver - this one's only $345 (+ shipping). It only has about 60% of the original blueing , but otherwise looks to be in fine condition (has a walnut grip). I'll see if I can post a picture of it. Do you think that price sounds a little more in line with what I should expect to pay?

I'm still doing a little checking on the H&R, and I may have a couple of questions to narrow it down some more.

As far as the S&W, that looks like a pretty good buy. It looks to be in great shape.

There were three versions of the 1917 that I see were produced:

The U.S. government model, produced from 1917-1919, primarily for use in WWI. These had smooth walnut handles.

The Commercial model, produced from 1919-1949 for commercial and contract sales. These had checkered walnut handles.

The Brazilian contract model, produced in 1938, with the Brazilian crest on the sideplate.

From what I can tell in the picture, it looks to have smooth grips, and you made no mention of a Brazilian crest, so I would assume it is a U.S. government issue. From my 2003 copy of Standard Catolog of Firearms, it would be valued at $300-350 (Good-Very Good conditions). It may even fall more into the Excellent condition range (I'm not experienced enough in grading firearms to offer any advice here) in which case it lists closer to $500.

Should it be the Brazilian Contract model, it would range from $200-250-300 (Good-Very Good-Excellent).

Is it a good buy? As in any purchase like this, the most important thing is that you are paying what you think it is worth to you. I recently bought an early model S&W .38 Military and Police 1902 2nd Model Hand Ejector for $200 at a show. It has no bluing left on any exposed surface, some minor pitting in the bore, and a slightly loose cylinder. It's not much of a shooter. Was it worth $200? $250-300-350 (Fair-Good-Very Good) is the value listed in the Standard's book, so I lucked out, though I didn't have a clue when I bought it. I saw it, I liked it, a cursory check showed it to be in more than good enough shape to be a display piece, if not a shooter. It took me all of about ten seconds to take it.

If you know the serial number of the 1917, you might be able to get some info on the specific firearm here:

http://www.armscollectors.com/srs.htm

Also, Smith and Wesson will provide firearm history with a little information and for a nominal fee. I'm currently awaiting information on the Hand Ejector I just told you about. They can often provide date of manufacture and who the firearm was initially sold to. For this form go to:

http://swcustomersupport.vista.com/page ... ry_request

I hope this information helps out a little. A lot of the info I've given here is from the Standard's book and a few others I keep for reference. If anyone else has anything to add, please do. I'll get back with you on the H&R when I have a little more time to dig a little and possibly get some more info from you.

Cheers!

IG

'Ohio' Erick · Post by **'Ohio' Erick** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:08 am

Indiana Grendel,

You're a god-send! =D> $\:D/$

Yeah, this is definitely a Smith & Wesson M1917 - the add says that "U.S. Property" is stamped on the butt of the grip. The serial # is listed so I'm going to go see what I can find out about it and then I'm off to bed. I'll let you know what I find out later this morning.

Thanks again!

Warm Regards,

Erick

'Ohio' Erick · Post by **'Ohio' Erick** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:24 am

Indiana Grendel,

I looked up the serial number of the M1917 using the link you provided above and it appears to have been produced in February of 1918. WWI didn't end until November of 1918, so this revolver was probably produced for use in WWI. Whether it actually saw any action is anyone's guess.

I also looked up the serial number of the H & R on that site and - according to the serial number - its date of production was POST-WWII, as the serial numbers end at somewhere around 511000 at the end of WWII. No further information could be attained for the H & R on that site.

Thank you for the great link!

Warm Regards,

Erick

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 11:02 am

Haven't been around as of late, very VERY busy at work.... 12+ hour days and all...

But Pyro, I just had to post when I saw your Webley. Great find for a great guy!

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:31 am

Indiana Grendel, I read and appreciated your assessment of values. And , while the values listed in the book may very well be true, in reality you cannot find a 1917 or 1937 in Good/ Very Good condition for $200-$350...at least not in my area, or with others with whom I have communicated. A more realistic price would be what I quoted before: around $450. I would dearly love to find a 1917 or 1937 at $200! Just thought I would bring this up so no one got "sticker shock" when they found one at a gunshow!

Ron

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:02 am

RonC wrote:Indiana Grendel, I read and appreciated your assessment of values. And , while the values listed in the book may very well be true, in reality you cannot find a 1917 or 1937 in Good/ Very Good condition for $200-$350...at least not in my area, or with others with whom I have communicated. A more realistic price would be what I quoted before: around $450. I would dearly love to find a 1917 or 1937 at $200! Just thought I would bring this up so no one got "sticker shock" when they found one at a gunshow!

Ron

Ron,

You're absolutely right on actual price v. book values. I didn't mean to give the impression that those were actual show/store prices. I myself use the prices to just see if a particular piece will even be in my price range. As I said in my post, I purchased an early model Smith, then saw the book value was higher, so the book is by no means a hard-and-fast guide to what you can expect to pay.

In fact, I should have mentioned that I saw a Colt M1917 at a show law month tagged at over $1200. It was in very good shape to be sure, but I was still not going to pay that much for it. I was able to get my Smith and a Spanish Civil War era Mauser (which I have been looking for for quite some time) both for a third of what the 1917 would have cost.

But, that's one thing I like about collecting guns (or anything for that matter). You may see that piece you've been looking for, but have to pass it up due to price/condition or both, but when you eventually find it, it's a treasure to add to your collection.

IG

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:17 am

Also, a note about pricing which I probably don't even have to make. When at a gun store or show, people are selling their wares to make money. They had to buy the piece, cover the costs of the show (including transportation and lodging)/retail facilities, licensing, and then make a profit to live off of.

At shows or through other means (ads, word of mouth, clubs) you can often find individuals to purchase from at better prices. I've purchased from individuals at shows before and would rather deal with them than with a dealer in many ways. While most firearms dealers are collectors as well, there's something to be said about making an exchange with someone who's in it just for the love of the hobby. Sure they sell their pieces some, but it's usually to get money for another piecethey'd rather have, or because they bought a set of guns for certain other pieces and want to sell off the others.

Much like when I collected baseball cards as a kid, I'm in the hobby for the interaction with other collectors almost as much as I am in it for the love of the items themselves. That's one reason I like posting in this particular forum.

Cheers,

IG

RonC · Post by **RonC** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:44 pm

Indiana Grendel, you are so right, my friend! However, contrary to what I just wrote...every once in a while some lucky person (I'm not mentioning any names here...PYRO!!!!) comes across a real "steal"....like a certain unnamed individual did at a recent Houston Gun Show! (he says, green with envy!

)

Ron

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:48 pm

heh. Thanks, Ron.

The Houston Gun Show is having another show this weekend Feb 7-8. Come on out here to find a treasure of your own.

HGCA is having their gun show on February 7 & 8, 2004.
Reliant Center (Near Reliant Stadium)
Sat. 9am - 6pm; Sun. 9am - 5pm
Tickets - $6.00 Adult; $3.00 under 12 years

(409) 935-3292
gunshow@hgca.org
www.hgca.org

Future Show Dates:
May 22 & 23, 2004
Nov 13 & 14, 2004

Indiana Grendel · Post by **Indiana Grendel** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:15 pm

I'm right along with you in being envious, Ron. Since we're all three in Texas (though I'm a bit further north than you guys) we should get together for a show sometime. Just so long as we don't end up fighting over any Indy guns.

I think HGCA put on a show that I went to a few years ago. I got a beat up old VZ-24 Mauser for $70. The stock was in pretty rough shape and the numbers didn't match, but with a little work I got it looking pretty good and a LER scope on there to make it a nice little shooter.

Anyways, that's my good impression of the Houston show.

Cheers!

IG

copper · Post by **copper** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:56 am

Exalent find Pyro,I got the same gun found it at an antique store in Galviton TX.A charming little gun to shoot amo is quit exspensive tweenty smaks for 38 short SW.Just a thought maybe we can have a summit or somthing in San Antonio for those who are in the area.onc again great find.
Wear in good health and attitude,Copper

Pyro's L.C. Webley

Pyro's L.C. Webley

Re: Is this a good price?

Re: Is this a good price?

Re: My dad's .22

Re: 1917 .45 ACP I want

Re: My dad's .22