The Expedition and What's On Screen

[CM]

The Expo is my favourite production Indy jacket.

Since it has been discussed around here a bit more of late I thought I'd ask you all how does the Expo differ to the jacket we see on screen? I am not talking leather or distressing, just pattern and manufacturing choices.

As I see it the differences are minor.

Zip doesn't go down far enough
Side straps mounted differently (I way prefer the Expo straps, by the way)
Cargo pocket flap on the Expo is a little narrow and perhaps too scalloped

Anything else?

None of those details matter much to me except the cargo flaps. I would like them to be a little wider than the cargo pocket like you see on the Nowak repo.

[Michaelson]

The Expo is made from the specs of a Terry Leonard stunt jacket, so make sure you're looking at stills from any scenes Terry's in and the jacket he's wearing at any given time.

Regards! Michaelson

[Gorak]

I didn`t even notice those things you pointed out...they seem completely invisible to me. By movie stills, I think the jacket is dead-on.....I think I`m the problem. It just doesn`t look right on me. I also have a Wested ROLA in washed goat and the side straps are placed low but it fits and feels great. I just get annoyed cuz I really love the Raiders look but..Ce La Vi!
But, yes sir, the Expedition, to me, has always been at the top of the food chain!

[Holt]

arent the Expo pockets at 8''x6.5''? thats the Nowak size.

If the Expo is based on Terry's jacket then it probably did'nt make screen time from what I can see. when I study Terry's jacket seen on screen and behind the screen, I see the ''bantu'' jacket. maby the jacket that the Expo is based on was Terry's back up jacket? The stuntmen must have had more then one jacket to play around in right?

[Michaelson]

_ is your man to answer any of these questions. He's the one who examined and took all the specs from the original to hand over to G&B for the project.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

Awaiting the word, I'll surmise that per the write-up on the main page, the Hero jacket was produced first, then 10 substandard jackets, due to variants, etc. that did not meet specs., they were not used. The final 3 jackets were ordered for each of the three stuntmen, with the understanding that these three were to be made just like the Hero jacket. I had assumed that the stunt jacket examined was one of the three jackets from the last order? If so, the specs. should have been the same, no? Also, based on the well of souls cobra still, the slim yoke can be seen, and this spec. found its way to market, per G&B.

CM, the way that the straps are anchored is much sturdier. Three stitch lines (two lines and a seam) fix the strap to the front of the jacket, while four hold the other side of the strap to the back panel.

[fenris]

Wasn't one of the jackets used by one of the stuntmen very different as it had no action pleats? I think this was the jacket used for the "dragging under the truck" stunt. Or is this not considered as it was REALLY a stunt jacket?

[Michaelson]

That was ALWAYS rumored to be one of the cast off Wilsons, but who knows for sure.

Regards! Michaelson

[Rundquist]

The one thing that I’ve always been able to tell that the Expo is based on a stunt jacket is the collar. There is footage (and unfortunately I can’t find a still at the moment) of HF and Vic Armstrong on the set of LC. For whatever reason I think HF is wet in the footage. Anyway, Vic is wearing his OG Raiders gear (hat & jacket) and the Expo collar is dead on to Vic’s collar. But the hero jacket was a little different to the stunt jackets.

That was what caused some of the original brouhaha when the Expo came out. Some fans thought that they were buying the jacket off of Ford’s back and got upset when they found out they weren’t. When discrepancies were detected between the stunt jacket and the hero jacket, people were running around with their heads cut off. I think that G&B made one or two changes because of discrepancies between the stunt jacket and hero jacket. They changed one of the seams on the yoke design and they changed the pocket placement, I think. It was before they called it quits on changing the design.

The Expo is the only Indy jacket that is actually functional with regards to it’s built in design features. The side vents actually work. They don’t work on a Nowak, Wested, or even the original. This doesn’t mean that they give you an amazing rage of movement; it just means that they work. Ironically, I’ve heard the Expo being described on the board as “too good” for an Indy jacket. Some of the design flaws inherent in the original design have been fixed through invisible methods. Many fans prefer the wonkiness of the original film jacket. Both types of jackets have their merit and charm, I would say.

I have Expos and I have a TN based on the hero jacket from out of GL’s cabinet. They are a bit different, but not a whole lot. The real difference between them is feel. The TN feels more wonky, very cool, but wonky. That comes party because the original was wonky and partly because of the leather and that sort of thing. The G&B’s have a level of refinement that some like and some don’t. What’s really strange to me is how the Expo can have the feel of a refined jacket and yet still be tougher than everything else. Weird.

[Texan Scott]

Some point to the collar, yet this one is a spot on representation of the one G&B made for me, or vice versa, actually. Of course, others have pointed out that the Hawaii jacket and the Immam's house jacket could be the same, and it could possibly be? I remember the Hawaii jacket. One of its distinguishing characteristics is that flat, wrinkly collar, etc. It is different from this one, or at least it appears to be different? Who knows what happened to the jacket between filming the Tunisia scenes and the scenes later filmed in Hawaii? If it is, this jacket is not the same one as below. The flying wing jacket is apparently the same jacket as the Raven bar jacket, as you can see the horizontal striations on the upper right panel (his right, our left). I suppose it depends upon the one you are the biggest fan of? Anyway...?

[Rundquist]

I'm not saying that the collar on an Expo is off, just that it really looks like the collar that Vic is wearing in the scene.

[Texan Scott]

gotcha!

[CM]

I didn't mean for us to get into the whole Leonard/Stunt screen accuracy debate. I am aware of all that stuff. What I meant for this post is a discussion of general design issues, like the zip. Obviously G&B has made some choices regarding how they put it all together, for instance they have made the action back work properly (unlike the film versions) and the lining is tailored to them.

Anythign else?

Yep Holt the pockets are the same size as Nowak pockets, but the flap is a quite different shape.

[Rundquist]

I didn't mean for us to get into the whole Leonard/Stunt screen accuracy debate. I am aware of all that stuff. What I meant for this post is a discussion of general design issues, like the zip. Obviously G&B has made some choices regarding how they put it all together, for instance they have made the action back work properly (unlike the film versions) and the lining is tailored to them.

Anythign else?

Yep holt the pockets are the same size as Nowak pockets but the flap is different.

They're pretty close. The side vent slits are deeper and more functional on the G&B. I'll have a look over the weekend and see if anything else pops up. The G&B is really the only one with two piece gussets I think. The hero jacket had one-piece gussets. I know that it was like pulling teeth trying to get Peter to do 2 piece gussets on a Wested. I think that the discrepancy between the front length vs. the back length was about in-between with the Expo. One of the design flaws on the hero Raider was that that the back and front lengths were the same. What this means in actuality is that the front of the jacket is longer than the back when worn or when laying flat. It’s really pronounced on the TN’s. This discrepancy is there on the Expo as well, but it’s not as pronounced as I recall. On the CS jacket for instance, the back and front line up. I think the front and back line up on most of the other jackets out there as well, but don’t quote me. If I'm not mistaken, the stormflap on the TN Raider might be an 1/4 inch (or some other miniscule amount) wider than the Expo. Again, I'll have to take a look. I'm not normally one of those guys that breaks out a tape measure. Cheers

[CM]

Thanks Rund - I forgot about the Expo gussets.

By the way didn't Tony N say that the jacket he looked at was a badly made piece of *&^%! If it was a Cooper job then Neil must not have cared all that much, ay?

You can see on early prototype Expo (posted recently) that the pocket flap was quite different, more LC than Raiders.

[Rundquist]

Thanks Rund - I forgot about the Expo gussets.

By the way didn't tony say that the jacket he looked at was a badly made piece of *&^%! If it was a Cooper job then he must not have carred all that much, ay?

You can see on early prototype Expo (posted recently) that the pocket flap was quite different, more LC than Raiders.

Yeah, both TN and Paterson say that the originals that they inspected were junk. It doesn't matter who made them, Peter or Neil Cooper, they were junk. Lol

[Rundquist]

So I compared the jackets and it is pretty amazing at how close they are to each other in terms of the measurements. I made a mistake. The storm flap width is identical. The widths of the bottoms of the panels are also the same. 

It's not really fair to compare the length of the panels because I get my expos in long. 

The pockets are less square as CM said, on the Expo, both on the flaps and over all. 

The only real differences were in a couple of key seam lengths. The shoulder seams (neck to shoulder) are longer on the TN. The yoke on the TN is also wider from side to side, but shorter from top to bottom. The length of the collar on the TN is longer too, both from tip to tip and from the one end of the base of the collar to the other. Those are significant differences, especially considering that many of the other measurements are the same. 

[ThatManFromRio]

That was ALWAYS rumored to be one of the cast off Wilsons, but who knows for sure.

Regards! Michaelson

This word should not pass the word censor any more .

TMFR

[CM]

So I compared the jackets and it is pretty amazing at how close they are to each other in terms of the measurements. I made a mistake. The storm flap width is identical. The widths of the bottoms of the panels are also the same. 

It's not really fair to compare the length of the panels because I get my expos in long. 

The pockets are less square as CM said, on the Expo, both on the flaps and over all. 

The only real differences were in a couple of key seam lengths. The shoulder seams (neck to shoulder) are longer on the TN. The yoke on the TN is also wider from side to side, but shorter from top to bottom. The length of the collar on the TN is longer too, both from tip to tip and from the one end of the base of the collar to the other. Those are significant differences, especially considering that many of the other measurements are the same. 

Rund - thanks for that always wondered how they compared. Any chance of posting a photo of the TN and Expo pocket side by side? Always been interested to see that.

[Michaelson]

That was ALWAYS rumored to be one of the cast off Wilsons, but who knows for sure.

Regards! Michaelson

This word should not pass the word censor any more .

TMFR

That, as well as 'SA'.

Regards !Michaelson

[Rundquist]

So I compared the jackets and it is pretty amazing at how close they are to each other in terms of the measurements. I made a mistake. The storm flap width is identical. The widths of the bottoms of the panels are also the same. 

It's not really fair to compare the length of the panels because I get my expos in long. 

The pockets are less square as CM said, on the Expo, both on the flaps and over all. 

The only real differences were in a couple of key seam lengths. The shoulder seams (neck to shoulder) are longer on the TN. The yoke on the TN is also wider from side to side, but shorter from top to bottom. The length of the collar on the TN is longer too, both from tip to tip and from the one end of the base of the collar to the other. Those are significant differences, especially considering that many of the other measurements are the same. 

Rund - thanks for that always wondered how they compared. Any chance of posting a photo of the TN and Expo pocket side by side? Always been interested to see that.

I'll try to get to this at some point this week. Cheers

[whipcracker]

What about the Expo's pocket flaps? It always seems like that there is not alot of scallop on them, at least from the few limited pictures I have seen. Can anyone do some comparison pics one that point? It seems like there is alot of variance on the degree of scallop even today...

I just checked the good old search for pocket flaps and it gave me 15 pages, however, I was thinking what about the most recent pocket flaps; I mean have there been any changes in the last 2 or 3 years....

[CM]

What about the Expo's pocket flaps? It always seems like that there is not alot of scallop on them, at least from the few limited pictures I have seen. Can anyone do some comparison pics one that point? It seems like there is alot of variance on the degree of scallop even today...

I just checked the good old search for pocket flaps and it gave me 15 pages, however, I was thinking what about the most recent pocket flaps; I mean have there been any changes in the last 2 or 3 years....

That's not what I see. The pockets Expo have been consistant for at least 7 years. Identical in fact and very much scalloped. My point is that on the TN replica the flap is wider than the cargo pocket itself and the side of the flap isn't cut straight down (level with the line of the cargo pocket) like it is on the Expo. The TN flap fans out near the bottom.

Rundquists photos will demonstrate this.

As it happens, my Wested pocket flaps are also wider than the pocket by about 1/4 inch.


Cheers

[Kt Templar]

The flaps tend to look better if they are slightly wider than the pocket. If only by a couple of mm.

The CS film flaps were dead on the same width as the pocket and that's a feature of that jacket.

[CM]

From the photos of the first Nowak Raiders replica, it appears the flaps are around 1/4 inch (maybe 5 mm) wider than the actual pocket. But the Nowak flap tapers, it isn't a straight line.

Can someone post a straight-on photo (not at an angle or it will distort) of a Raiders Nowak pocket so y'all can see what I mean? Please...

I need my lithium

[Kt Templar]

The flaps tend to look better if they are slightly wider than the pocket. If only by a couple of mm.

Eh... I think it looks sloppy... JMO

I can understand your feelings.

I think it's one of those optical design touches. Rather than a mechanical measurement thing.

Here's Goodwear A2 that does it.

[CM]

That looks more like a G&B pocket. My Wested sticks out by 7 mm on each side and does look sloppy because the flap is narrow and not scalloped. The Nowak pocket flaps stick out more than this photo too - at least on the 4 jackets I have here on file. I can't post pics but the Nowak thread will have the shots. My point is that the side of the flaps on most Nowaks come out a little towards the bottom of each side befro coming in by scalloping.

[Holt]

I think it rocks! and love the wider Nowak pocket.

[ProfessorHenryWJonesJr]

Pictures of the Gibson and Barnes "Expedition" pockets from a jacket that was just purchased this past week. In case anyone is wondering, it is one inch from the bottom of the jacket to the bottom of the pockets.



Hope this helps.

[CM]

Hope this helps.

The only issue I have with this picture is the angle at which it is taken. It slightly distorts the size of the flaps and the scalloping. The best photo is where the jacket is hanging up straight and the photo is taken right in front of it, with no angle.

[Rundquist]

These aren't very good. Lot's of angle distortion. Oh well. The russet is the Expo; The other is the TN.

[CM]

That's cool, Rundquist. Interesting. You see the pocket flaps here and notice how the Nowak flares out. Looks hot... can I say that about a F**** jacket?

AND - this raises another difference between the Expo and the film jacket. The pocket opposite the windflap is, I believe, way too close to the zip on the Expo. A placement they changed some years ago. I believe it is around 1.5 cm (1/2 inch) too close.

Cheers - CM

Edited because I had the wrong pocket...

[Michaelson]

Still not sure I understand the point to this exercise. The TN was supposed to have been based on a screen used hero jacket. The Expo was based on one of the screen used stunt jackets. Two completely different hand made jackets, and both correct to the jacket they were based on.

Why are they being compared to each other? They were NOT based on the same original jacket, so they WOULD both be different, and yet both are correct to what they were copied from, that and the fact they would both be considered 'film jackets' as they both saw screen time.

Ah well, but then that's just my read of things. Carry on.

Regards! Michaelson

[CM]

Is there ever a valid point to our hobby other than our own amusement?

I was simply interested in comparing the Expo to what I see on screen most of the time. I'd say the pockets on the Nowak are more accurate. And interestingly, they are the same pockets Wings is using for the legend. Also the Expo has gone through some design tweaks since it was created.

[Michaelson]

Is there ever a valid point to our hobby other than our own amusement?

Old friend, you sure nailed it with that single statement!!!

[Rundquist]

Yeah, at this point I could care less. I just posted because CM asked. The stunt jackets were a little different, but not enough for me to give a .... (you can fill this in) .

[Michaelson]

Uh, a teaspoon worth of sand?

Regars! Michaelson

[CM]

Yeah, at this point I could care less. I just posted because CM asked. The stunt jackets were a little different, but not enough for me to give a .... (you can fill this in) .

I hear ya. But given this is the place where fine details of all jackets are and have been carefully scuritinsed, I wouldn't have thought my interest was superfluous or eccentric. I don't give much of a ... either: from a customer pont of view, my G&B is the Indy jacket I want and have.

[Bemo]

I'm very thankful for this thread. I've never been a stitch-zealot, but If I'm choosing a jacket to emulate a particular scene/look, then this thread is very helpful. I'm all for a practical close-enough, and knowing how close the close-enough is makes a difference to me and probably to others. Knowing that a G&B has only very slight differences to the Nowak Raider's makes a huge difference to me as I'll never have a Nowak Raiders. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[Texan Scott]

I don't know guys? Take a look at the main page? Specifically the LC, third image from the top...? Difficult to see a clear Raiders pocket image, but the LC is clearer. With the LC images, the flap looks longer (than the Raiders), but the scallops are not as defined as some recent repros. To me, the latest renditions are a bit of a caricature, ie slightly exagerated. jmo.

[CM]

I don't know guys? Take a look at the main page? Specifically the LC, third image from the top...? Difficult to see a clear Raiders pocket image, but the LC is clearer. With the LC images, the flap looks longer (than the Raiders), but the scallops are not as defined as some recent repros. To me, the latest renditions are a bit of a caricature, ie slightly exagerated. jmo.

Tex, if you're saying that the LC jacket flap is less scalloped than on the repos we've seen I think you're right. But isn't that off topic for this one? By the way, the LC pocket doesn't have piping at the top. Few of the repos have picked that up.

The best Raiders pocket shots are in the making of DVDs and at the temple before he goes into Elstree...

[Michaelson]

I hear ya. But given this is the place where fine details of all jackets are and have been carefully scuritinsed, I wouldn't have thought my interest was superfluous or eccentric. I don't give much of a ... either: from a customer pont of view, my G&B is the Indy jacket I want and have.

NO no no! My remark was not making 'light' of your interest, not did I consider it being 'superfluous or eccentric'. I'm sorry you took it that way.

What I asked was why one was being compared to the other, when they were copies of two completely different jackets.

The G&B is a copy of a screen used stunt jacket, a Wested. The TN is copied from the screen ued 'hero', supposedly a Cooper. They are both from the same film, and both screen used, but will not compare to each other as they weren't copied from the same jacket.

That's all I was asking. As you pointed out, one discussion is as good as the next, but my question was never to make your inquiry appear 'eccentric'.

It was asked as most of your comments keep coming out like G&B's pocket placements and the like were somehow 'wrong', and the TN was a '@#$% hot jacket'. If they were reproducing the same jacket, I'd understand......but....

You can be interested all you want, and Rundquist can be as disinterested as he likes...I really don't care one way OR the other.

I'm just puzzled at what you're comparing, and why you're even trying to draw any conclusions FROM those comparions, that's all. They aren't the same, they won't BE the same, and in the final outcome, it's all subjective.

Now, that said, discussion for DISCUSSION'S sake...THAT I understand!

So carry on! I just wanted to clear that up.

Regards! Michaelson

[CM]

My Dear Michaelson,

I didn't take your comments as making light on my interest. You are a model of reason, fairness and good humor, always.

I guess I was was simply trying to justify to myself, really, why I was suddenly obsessed with 6mm of leather.

I am particularly interested in what the differences are between the G&B and the Nowak (and the Nowak appears to be the version used on screen that I like most) that's all.

And I guess that what started as a thread on the Expo and how it differs to what we think we see on screen (the model for how we have tended to see this jacket is probably Todd's pattern) eventually became a post on the Expo's pockets and Nowak's. And as you so correctly put it - discussion for discussions sake. I apologise if I sounded nonplussed.

I really enjoy this hobby.

[Michaelson]