Blacklisted?

[djd]

Have to say that he's got back to me within the day each time I've contacted him.....

[djd]

Lol. Why else would you be here?

[KingHamlet]

Who is Bates? Can he do a surrogates jacket?

[djd]

Bates leathers - they make motorcycle stuff

[riothamus]

Riley did FINALLY get back to my email of a few weeks ago relating his new increased prices. WAY more than I can justify now or perhaps ever in the future. Now that I'm getting a Magnoli, I'm regretting not saving for one of Tony's when the price was lower... Oh well, I at least got a hat from the man himself.

Excelsior!
Riothamus

[Chewbacca Jones]

Wait, didn't Riley say he was closing up shop and not taking any more orders?

[scot2525]

Wait, didn't Riley say he was closing up shop and not taking any more orders?

See here Chewie, Riley posted a last call for jacket orders.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48533&start=0

[Baldwyn]

Well, Riley had Bern quick to respond to me - then I tried placing an order. I wanted a Terminator repro. But it appears my money is not wanted. Oh, well... Best of luck to those still awaiting contact. I just don't get it - Tony would call within minutes of an email. Literally.

I'll be visiting Bates while I'm at the QM party. I'll give them the $1,300 for their T2 jacket and get measured by them. They return my calls - but their jackets can take 6+ months. They're worth every cent snd every minute you wait.

I heard from him last week, but nothing since me last few emails. I'm probably a pest of a customer too

[ThatManFromRio]

Big Tony was - uh - exaggerating? Tony did make a pair of leather pants for T3.

Did he claim making jackets for T3 ?

[Han Jones]

Tony did make the jacket and pants from T3, his name is on the buttons on the screen used jacket.

[Kittlemeier]

Correct. Bates designed the T3, Nowak produced the screen jackets, and Vanson copied a bullet ridden screen used Nowak later on.

The overall look was based on an old Hein Gericke jacket from the eighties, per Dana back in 2003 before the movie was even near completion. It was a surprise when Nowak was mentioned as the maker as Bates had pegged the design down to the one shoulder shotgun padding well before the public had seen the jacket. I guess it was just the Arnold/Tony connection that led to him making the screen jackets, but I'd never try to say that for sure. That part I admit I don't know. Anyone else who had more of a connection to Tony?

Vanson just copied it down the road. I was actually just talking to Dan about Vanson's version a few days ago as I was curious as to how they came to make a version.

Hideous jacket in my opinion, whoever designed or produced it.

[BendingOak]

The fact was they couldn't get the jacket to work the way the designer wanted and they went Tony who made it work. He didn't get the job because of Arnold, he got it because he was the only one who could make the jacket work. There is a lot of mis information out there.

[Kittlemeier]

Exactly why I said I didn't know and immediately asked if anyone knew for sure.

Had he done many movie jackets prior to that though? Most of what was on his site were really loud promotional jackets. Either way, I'm sure it didn't hurt that he was personal friends with and had made multiple jackets for Arnold. Not to take away from Tony, but he's not the absolute only one who could have made it work. That's a little strong.

The reason I responded was to correct misinformation about Vanson.

[BendingOak]

He didn't get the job because of his friendship with Arnold. He got the job because he made the designer happy where before they couldn't get the jacket to work like the designer wanted.

[Han Jones]

He didn't get the job because of his friendship with Arnold. He got the job because he made the designer happy where before they couldn't get the jacket to work like the designer wanted.

100% correct John.

[Kittlemeier]

Maybe I wasn't clear the first two times. I said it was a guess. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince. But since you're eager to prove it, was it absolutely a fact that Bates couldn't make the jacket work? Where does this information come from? I'm not trying to start anything, I'm really curious about this and where the facts are coming from as I've known the first half of the story for seven years and would love to hear the rest.

[Han Jones]

Who ever was making the jacket and pants couldn't get it right so Tony was brought in and he did it the way they wanted. Tony's word is my proof.

[Dunross76]

Not sure why this is the case, but in my case Riley has been replying to my messages. I know that he's swamped with orders.

[Kittlemeier]

Really, why are you guys getting so offended by an honest question? It's silly.

Listen, I spoke to Tony one time and he seemed like the greatest of guys. Wanted to get a jacket made of the shiny vintage goat but unfortunately time ran out. But presenting this as factual proof just doesn't cut it. I'm not saying the story of Bates, a leather company with a great history in complicated racing leathers by the way, not being able to make a somewhat complicated jacket isn't true, just not likely. If it was some fly by night company with no history of making incredible jackets it'd be different. I'd just like a little bit more than the word of the man, as great a guy as he was, who got the contract, being that he was close personal friends and made all the promo jackets for the actor. Who's to say he even knew the whole story of why Bates wasn't used, except him?

Think about it, even if his getting the gig was because he was friends with Arnold, that doesn't reflect on the quality of his product. But saying Bates couldn't construct a leather jacket or pants just doesn't sound right. There's a disconnect there and I prefer to know the whole story or at least as much as is available. One side isn't the whole story. If you guys are satisfied with that, great. But don't dismiss my legitimate questions because you have your "proof."

[Kittlemeier]

I've never seen Vanson claim any credit for the T3 personally, but admittedly, I haven't seen everything in the world. Per Dan they produced the officially licensed replicas, based on the screen used jacket, for another company that's now out of business. Even the Vanson T3 that Dan sells is called a replica.

http://loganscloset.com/t3.html

[Kittlemeier]

If Bates was never contacted, then how did they describe the jacket perfectly to me months before the first screen shots were seen by the public? I have no idea why they weren't used, but highly doubt it's because they couldn't get it right.

As far as Vanson, I was talking to Dan about this just a few days ago, and called back to confirm today. Vanson copied a Nowak screen used jacket for a licensed replica. Unless they told him face to face a bs story.

And yep, I know absolutely nothing about the Surrogates jacket.

You're the experts.

[Kittlemeier]

It was Dana I talked to in '03. $0.00 ago. I was trying to ID the X2 jacket at the time for someone on the RPF. They described it down to the shotgun pads on one shoulder.

[theman]

Hey Gang, Sticking my head back in the door after a bit of an absense due to the loss of my father...

Being the Vanson guy referred to out here I thought I should confirm certain details on this one.
_, I talked with you about the T3 jacket before and I believe Kittle, Han, and Oak are confirming much of the info on this jacket correctly.

Bates provided the T1, and T2 jackets for the movie production, they also did design work for the T3 per the costumer. Tony Nowak actually built the final version of the jacket and pants for the film. I actually discussed this jacket topic with Tony briefly while on the phone about a Raiders last year. He said it was very complicated and couldn't touch it for less than $1400, and I relayed how it is incorporated into Vansons's production from that licensing company.
Vanson only produced the licensed replicas after the film release. They had Nowak's screen used T3 with squib holes and all in hand from the studio for two weeks under lock down due to an extremely high insurance policy. The replicas Vanson made were exact to Tony's original and the company selling them also included signed Arnie plaques for the extra low price of $2000. That company went under, Vanson still has the pattern and can and has made them fully custom fit for customers, but my LogansCloset.com price on them starts at ~$550. I had Vanson build one for a guy about _'s size recently to go with his awesome bike, it had customized matching shoulder gun padding, I'll dig up the pics when I get home...

Note about edit: had to change "b@d@ss" to "awesome" due to the crazy word cleaner here. Are things really that bad that we can't say "b@d@ss?"

[Michaelson]

Not that bad.... it just takes one bad apple using a word as an insult to spoil it for everyone else. Words are only put in the word censor when they've been taken completely off the chart, so someone when off the rails at some time around here.

Very sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad.

Regards! Michaelson

[Long John Tinfoil]

So _, just how many websites are you the primary jacket researcher for, anyway?

LJ

[Band Director Jones]

_ is just a JACKet of all trades. (Don't worry, I'll give myself one of these )

[Kittlemeier]

Glad everything's mostly figured out.

Now how can we get the whole story of why Nowak was used rather than Bates, since the "couldn't make it work" line just isn't that likely(and again, nothing against Nowak, he could have been told that)? What's crazy is that Rick said three years ago that Dawn told him pretty much the same story that Dana told me in '03.

And I can't wait to see _'s Bates X2, the best looking jacket that I could never get away with wearing. Can't wait to see Dan's version either, I'm sure Vanson will knock it out of the park.

[BendingOak]

Glad everything's mostly figured out.

Now how can we get the whole story of why Nowak was used rather than Bates, since the "couldn't make it work" line just isn't that likely(and again, nothing against Nowak, he could have been told that)? What's crazy is that Rick said three years ago that Dawn told him pretty much the same story that Dana told me in '03.

And I can't wait to see _'s Bates X2, the best looking jacket that I could never get away with wearing. Can't wait to see Dan's version either, I'm sure Vanson will knock it out of the park.

I can say the same thing about any statement anyone makes. Believe what you like.

[Kittlemeier]

Not sure if you're saying there's any innuendo by me, but there's definitely not. I'll say what I mean, every time. That's why I don't post very much. I know Bates could have done this jacket and done it better than pretty much anyone. That's not at issue in the least. And the X2 jacket is truly one of the best looking movie jackets I've seen, and my posts at fj will attest to that. I just don't talk about other jackets here because the posts usually get blasted. But please explain the innuendo, if any, you think is coming from this direction.

I know that - partially to my great short-term frustration - Dana will not be rushed. I know that some costume designers will not accept any pushback from any vendor. That "oil and water" scenario is more likely at the root of what some call a disconnect. That very easily translates into a costume designer egotistically saying to another vendor they want something from, "Yeah THEY couldn't do it!" And in fact they knew that they could, but they didn't like the terms or any and all pushing back due to quality and the vendors concerns over their own reputation vs. the designers timeline considerations. It's reasonable and logical.

Seems a lot more likely that them not being able to do it.

And don't worry that I don't have a full life. I just don't care for hunting, fishing, golfing, or watching sports.

What else are you getting by the way? $2800 is more than an X2, right?

I can say the same thing about any statement anyone makes. Believe what you like.

Nothing to add then? Again, nothing I have said is a slight against Tony, bar saying someone doesn't know all the facts being a slight, although you seem be ignoring that fact. So, uh, believe what you like.

[Forrest For the Trees]

The X-3 is my personal favorite, only because it is a little more understated than the others. I think the blue stripes on brown looks pretty slick.

[Kittlemeier]

...

Uh, actually I sorta felt like you and BO were on my side here? Maybe I need to proof this stuff better...

$2,800 represents 2 jackets in the pipeline. The X2 and a T1. That was a preliminary estimate. It's actually only $2,400. The T1 was less than I thought it would be even with the competition weight smooth cowhide.

I agree on the X2. It is a work of art. Have you seen some if the close-up stitching? I'm tempted to take the orthodox Michaelson approach and keep her pristine. The X1 and XO scream "distress me!" The X3? Jury's out until I see her. Maybe more X2 than otherwise.

Two questions? Why can't you wear an X2? Just curious. Second - I think your posts are pretty - well - rational? Guess it's not a question - really a statement...

This time I'm well caffeinated...

Okay, yeah, I totally agree with you about Bates. Definitely on your side about that. And I think everyone agrees now that Tony made the screen used T3. Some are disagreeing with my questioning the story about Bates not being able to get the job done on the T3. I'm just not one to take anyone's word without question and I know Bates could get the job done.

On the X2, I've seen some pretty good shots of the stitching at the waist and cuffs. Beautiful work. I'll admit though I prefer it as it looks on screen rather than the old shots of it on the back of the door at Bates. It's a wee bit loud in it's unaltered state.

If I could see spending the money, get it past my wife, wait the near year for the jacket, and bring myself to get it to screen appearance, I think I could do it. It would actually look fine with my Triumph. Just scared of something so bold I guess. Used to wearing more low key gear. I have the Triumph Rivton jacket which has some color, just not bright mustard and burgundy.

I can't wait to see Dan's version of the X2 as it'll certainly be more affordable. I'm glad he's using the proper mustard color rather than the gold/tan most everyone else has used. Several have really dropped the ball on that. The rationale that the X1 color is what the costumers meant to use is ridiculous. They used what they meant to use, mustard.

Well thank you for the compliment about my rational posting habits. I usually think no one is reading them at all.

The X-3 is my personal favorite, only because it is a little more understated than the others. I think the blue stripes on brown looks pretty slick.

That one was made by The Original Leather Factory although Dan sells a great looking version of it. So far as I know, no one has identified the maker of the XO jacket yet. Milos made a pretty good looking X2 for Indiana G by the way.

http://originalleathers.com/

By the way, I'm not a Dan fanboy or anything. I do really like what I've seen coming out of his business though. I have a Layer Cake jacket on order with him but let's not get into that.

[rick5150]

Interesting conversation for IndyGear. For obvious reasons, I do not plan to get involved in the T3 discussion too deeply here.

My recollection was that the decision to go with Nowak over Bates on the T3 was at least partly a cost issue, but admittedly, my memory is poor.

Bates has an excellent reputation for motorcycle jackets as Kittlemeier stated. I fear the fact that many people have formed some kind of "bond" with Tony may cloud the discussion somewhat. Because people are not familiar with a certain vendor, they take sides with the one they are familiar with. Just consider for a moment that Bates could manufacturer such a jacket. So can Vanson.

[Garzo]

Despite the fact that this has nothing to do with Indy, I gotta say I find the Terminator 3 jacket quite hideous. Always preferred the basic Perfecto look of T2 and the plain M65 jacket of the original. This thing's just too busy and lumpy.

I also dig Marcus Wright's T4 Belstaff jacket . . .

[djd]

Despite the fact that this has nothing to do with Indy, I gotta say I find the Terminator 3 jacket quite hideous. Always preferred the basic Perfecto look of T2 and the plain M65 jacket of the original. This thing's just too busy and lumpy.

I also dig Marcus Wright's T4 Belstaff jacket . . .

Same here re the T3 jacket. As a biker of the sportsbike variety I've always thought the T3 looked like an old man's jacket- an old man with no sense of style! I say that as a relatively mature citizen ( in years if not mentally)

[Kittlemeier]

Man, I agree with you both. It's a hideous jacket. Worse than the Hein Gericke it's based on. Hard to believe but there's a pic of Hugh Jackman in a similar styled jacket out there. Not even Wolverine can make that jacket work.



At the risk of offending more people, or the same people more, when Nowak was announced as the maker of the Skull jacket, I had serious doubts as everything that had been on his site were loud promotional jackets or bombers that looked like something Jay Leno would wear. I'm glad I was wrong. I wasn't a fan of the Skull jacket's fit, but it was obviously a well constructed jacket. Most everything he's done since is gorgeous. Especially the Surrogates jacket, which I assume from comments there's some contention about. Beautiful jacket anyway.

[Han Jones]

How can the Surrogates jacket be in question as well. My god if people wanted to say he didn't make the T3 or Surrogates why not say it when he was alive so he could set it straight. Why discredit peoples work after they are dead. I would have more respect for people if they just said he was one of if not the best jacket maker we have seen or he was a huge liar about everything he ever did. People have be trying to plant the seed of doubt about his work since he died. Just say what you want to say and be done with but quit beating around the bush. I am proud to say he was my freind and Riley for that matter. I have don't have photo evidence of him fitting Bruce Willis or Arnold only the fact that I have stood between Tony and Arnold talking about their T3 jacket. But who needs evidence around here all we get are stories no photos or recorded interveiws about things that are accepted as fact.

[Michaelson]

I am curious though - how they'll respond yo the T1... It's a biker jacket - know what I mean?

I think you may be surprised.

The only jacket I've gotten a real big 'thumbs up' from the family for a while, let alone stopped twice now by complete strangers to compliment my Wings German Flight jacket (essentially a black biker type jacket too), I've been pretty amazed at it's reception at MY house.

I think you're going to experience the same.

Regards! Michaelson

[Kittlemeier]

How can the Surrogates jacket be in question as well. My god if people wanted to say he didn't make the T3 or Surrogates why not say it when he was alive so he could set it straight. Why discredit peoples work after they are dead. I would have more respect for people if they just said he was one of if not the best jacket maker we have seen or he was a huge liar about everything he ever did. People have be trying to plant the seed of doubt about his work since he died. Just say what you want to say and be done with but quit beating around the bush. I am proud to say he was my freind and Riley for that matter. I have don't have photo evidence of him fitting Bruce Willis or Arnold only the fact that I have stood between Tony and Arnold talking about their T3 jacket. But who needs evidence around here all we get are stories no photos or recorded interveiws about things that are accepted as fact.

I'm not sure who you're aiming at with each of these points so I'll go one by one in my defense.

I truly have no idea what's being questioned about the Surrogates jacket. Just making sure now and in the previous posts that everyone knows I'm not questioning that one.

I've never said he didn't make either jacket when he was alive or dead. I originally thought Bates made it and said so until I saw pics from the Arnold Classic in '03 or '04 of the jacket with the Nowak palm tree label. That was enough proof for me that Nowak made the screen jacket no matter what Bates had done previous to Nowak's work.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone, but trying to keep Bates from being discredited by people who don't know what they're talking about and are only presenting one biased, uneducated(in that you've only dealt with Nowak and not Bates) side of a story.

I've consistently said he's one of the best jacket makers. Can't say whether he's the best as I don't have a jacket from every maker on earth.

I never said he was a liar. I said he might not have been told the whole story. Any person's word should be able to be held to scrutiny. There are thousands of worthless Wested COA's out there, and before you even try, I'm not comparing Tony to Peter, so drop that one before you even start.

I've never planted a seed of doubt. Not intentionally anyway.

I've said what I want. I want a rational reason Bates wasn't used. Them not being able to "make the jacket work" isn't a rational reason, given Bates very long history. When have I beaten around the bush?

I'm glad he was your friend, he seemed like an awesome guy. That doesn't mean he was told the whole story of why Bates wasn't used. He wasn't omniscient.

Which is it? You have or don't have photo evidence? Either way, it doesn't matter to me as I believe he made both jackets. Again, I don't know what the doubts are about the Surrogates jacket. The replicas look just like the original to me, beautiful.

I'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence/question.

The oldest mention of the Bates X2 I could find from me was on the A.S.A.P. Dewback wing board on May 10, 2003. She shared the X2 and T3 info on the same call so it had to have been previous to that. Now she had described the Bates colors as mustard and burgundy and I thought she was nutty until the action figures came out and matched perfectly. The action figures were released before the movie's release on May 2. So several months before stills were released for T3, she described the jacket as inspired by a Hein Gericke with pads on only one shoulder. And we should just ignore one of the best, like Tony, jacket makers in the world(can't say THE best as I don't have a jacket from every maker in the world)? Sorry, I'm not willing to do that.

You guys keep repeating the same thing over and over, while being presented with rational reasons why one little thing you believe might not be the case. I've said over and over that this has nothing to even do with Tony, yet you belittle any point made that doesn't jibe with the apparently one line he had to say about the situation. Why does common sense have to go out the door when talking to some people about certain vendors?

[BendingOak]

Looks like you are taking bates word just like some are tones word. All I know is they had the job and got pulled from it. Tony ended up with the job. That's proof to me theyncouldnt get the job done.

[BendingOak]

I have nothing against bates at all. just the fact they had the job and lost it. Tony made it happened and did a great job. I saw one of the T3 jackets and its his standard greta craftmenship expected from Tony.


I never knew Tony to lie. I find it hard to believe. i would need proof of it before i put that one in my pocket.

[Han Jones]

The danger here is new people being wowed buy the "stories" told here over the years about the jackets, stories that change every few years once someone get ripped off by the flavor of the week jacket guy. The truth is out there just not here. Ban me if you want I don't care. There is a crack in the armor already and there are many others that think so as well. The information can't be controlled forever and saying I know more than just dosen't cut it anymore. I can accept this as my COW suicide if that the way they want it.

[BendingOak]

I have nothing against bates at all. just the fact they had the job and lost it. Tony made it happened and did a great job. I saw one of the T3 jackets and its his standard greta craftmenship expected from Tony.


I never knew Tony to lie. I find it hard to believe. i would need proof of it before i put that one in my pocket.

His using others images... Used to be able to find it using "search" on filmjackets.com. I assume you still can. Sorry Rick...

That went over my head.