DURABILITY QUESTION

[soulman]

Greetings to all! I was just wondering what the rundown is when it comes to jacket durability. Basically, who makes (in terms of construction) the most durable jackets. I know it's been said before that a jacket is only as tough as its stitching. Though leather plays a role it ultimately comes down to build quality.

[Michaelson]

Gibson and Barnes, in my opinion.

Regards! Michaelson

[soulman]

That was my assesment as well. I was thinking it was something like...
1. G&B
2. Wings
3. Wested
4. ?????

or am I way off???

[Michaelson]

That's my read as well.

Regards !Michaelson

[Chewbacca Jones]

Soulman, I agree about G&B and Wings, but I'd add Magnoli at no lower than 3 on the list, and Wested no higher than 4. There have been a few stitching issues with Westeds.
(I didn't include Nowak, as the curtain is coming down on that offering, but Michaelson is right.)

[soulman]

Oh to have had experience with either the Magnoli or the Nowak. I've heard that they were great but my knowledge is sadly limited to G&B which I regret selling, the Wings VIP, a Goat Wested and now Todds which stands as my sole Indy possesion.

[Photoss]

From examination and my own surmises, G&B and US Wings respectively.

[Kentucky Blues]

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with any of these guys... but I have to say a jacket can be a little stronger than it's stitching. Good stitching won't matter if the leather rips first. For example, I have a lambskin wested with which I've had absolutely NO stitching issues, but putting my hands in the pockets caused rips in the leather on the sides. But yeah... if you got good enough leather, the stitching is of most importance

-KB

[Rundquist]

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with any of these guys... but I have to say a jacket can be a little stronger than it's stitching. Good stitching won't matter if the leather rips first. For example, I have a lambskin wested with which I've had absolutely NO stitching issues, but putting my hands in the pockets caused rips in the leather on the sides. But yeah... if you got good enough leather, the stitching is of most importance

-KB

Stitching is only a semi-mute point with regards to lambskin because of lambskin's weak tensile strength. You’re certainly not going to have any tear issues with goatskin. The only exception to this would be a jacket manufacturer that really didn’t know what they were doing. The wrong kind of thread, or the stitches not being the correct length and space between each other can cause the thread to rip through the leather. I have not heard of this happening with any of the Indy jacket makers though. I’ve heard of faulty stitching, but not improper stitching.

[soulman]

Well thus far i'm pleased by what i'm hearing. I am presently awaiting a USW Legend in HH. So the leather is tough enough and the stitching should be good.
Now for the fit

[Han Jones]

1- Nowak (if you have one you know especialy vintage goat I would put it up against anything)
2- G&B ( I wore mine for 2 weeks and some of the leather started peel off)
3- Wested (I have had problems with lining but never leather, I wouldn't say they are costume peices)
4- Magnoli (costruction is good but some leathers I have had felt more like ostritch than goat)

[Michaelson]

Well, my Nowak CS zipper failed in 2 months of very light use, and I've never had ANY of my other vendors jackets do that, so it's all in what you get at any given time.

I do not use that personal experience to rate anything else Nowak makes, or has made in the past.

It was a single event, and a single data point, but is something to factor in when discussing durability.

Any jacket is only as durable as it's weakest 'link'. If I used my Nowak as the only example I know, then I'd have to say it was a failure in terms of durability due to that failed zipper.....but we know better.

I've never had a problem with a Wested lining, either silk or cotton, but I have had large areas of the surface peel off a year old lambskin Wested. It's all subjective and limited to a single event.

I snagged the lining of my Wings VIP on a simple splinter in a wooden kitchen chair, ripping a 9 inch line. It required relining. Was that failure? One could say 'yes', as it shouldn't have snagged that easily in my opinion, but was the jacket still 'functional'? Well, yes, it was.

Same with the Wested with the peeled surface. It was still a fully functional jacket. It couldn't be used as a dress jacket, but it was still in the fight. I've had literally dozens of Wested jackets come and go in my collection. This is the only one I can say truly had a significant problem, but is it one of durability?

What is your criteria?

It would also hinge on how long any particular item has been in the field to help determine durability.

Just to name a few, Wested goes back with us from the beginning, as has Wings. That's been since around 1984.
G&B goes back at least 11 years, and Nowak 2 years.

I could argue that my 1950 Plymouth is one of the most durable cars ever produced, as mine is still chugging away on a daily basis to and from work, completely dependent on nothing but general maintenance and having never been overhauled. Considering it's the ONLY one I've ever seen in my part of the country that's still on the road, can I honestly say it is the most durable car Plymouth every produced? Probably not, but then proof of longevity is also proof of durability of THAT particular item....not the Plymouth line, but that particular car.

Once again....what criteria are we using here?

So, look at all the data points and discussions, factor in the length those products have actually been in use, the scratch your head see what you think should be your baseline before determining true 'durability'.

Regards !Michaelson

[Rundquist]

1- Nowak (if you have one you know especialy vintage goat I would put it up against anything)
2- G&B ( I wore mine for 2 weeks and some of the leather started peel off)
3- Wested (I have had problems with lining but never leather, I wouldn't say they are costume peices)
4- Magnoli (costruction is good but some leathers I have had felt more like ostritch than goat)

You should put your picks in perspective. Leather doesn't have anything to do with construction. Are all of your choices based on goatskin? I tore my TN lambskin too, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't well made or that I would compare it to a goatskin jacket of any maker. Lambskin is lambskin.

[ron521]

KB - my ranking is overall jackets, not just stitching. G&B make an overall better jacket than the rest. Since the question is durability, I rank USW 3rd (with nobody in second). And I rank Todd, Magnoli, and TN tied for 4th as I believe they are equals with respect to durability. Wested? While there are the occasional old timers, my experience with them is that at their heart they are costumes. The QA is poor and I've never met one that did not have at least one stitch I could completely unravel if I wanted to.

FAIL!

Putting "nobody" in second place is completely meaningless.

[ron521]

KB - my ranking is overall jackets, not just stitching. G&B make an overall better jacket than the rest. Since the question is durability, I rank USW 3rd (with nobody in second). And I rank Todd, Magnoli, and TN tied for 4th as I believe they are equals with respect to durability. Wested? While there are the occasional old timers, my experience with them is that at their heart they are costumes. The QA is poor and I've never met one that did not have at least one stitch I could completely unravel if I wanted to.

Putting "nobody" in second place is completely meaningless.

Obviously to me it isn't. I believe, based on having owned all of these that there is a significant enough gap between USW and G&B to warrant that in order to illustrate the point. I think everyone else "got" it. It adds "scale" and "weight" and communicates far more than a simple ranking.

Now, as for your comment? (grin)

So your "point" is that there is a gap between G&B and US Wings?
So what? There is a gap between every OTHER brand mentioned as well.
If there weren't a gap, then they would be ranked EQUALLY.
The size of the perceived gap is totally irrelevant.
If two brands are not ranked equally, then they are, by default, ranked sequentially.
There are no non-existent placeholders
By YOUR ranking, the next best choice if one doesn't want or can't have a G&B is to not have a jacket at all.

Which is, as I stated before, completely meaningless.

I stand by my original comment, and add now that I'm seeing evidence of FAILure of the educational system.
In the interest of preventing this from escalating into a flame war, this will be my final word on this thread.
I'm not going to argue with you, _, as I feel it's more important to preserve the peace of the forum than to engage in a argument.
I hope you feel the same way, but if you must have the last word, you certainly are welcome to it.

[Rundquist]

KB - my ranking is overall jackets, not just stitching. G&B make an overall better jacket than the rest. Since the question is durability, I rank USW 3rd (with nobody in second). And I rank Todd, Magnoli, and TN tied for 4th as I believe they are equals with respect to durability. Wested? While there are the occasional old timers, my experience with them is that at their heart they are costumes. The QA is poor and I've never met one that did not have at least one stitch I could completely unravel if I wanted to.

Putting "nobody" in second place is completely meaningless.

Obviously to me it isn't. I believe, based on having owned all of these that there is a significant enough gap between USW and G&B to warrant that in order to illustrate the point. I think everyone else "got" it. It adds "scale" and "weight" and communicates far more than a simple ranking.

Now, as for your comment? (grin)

So your "point" is that there is a gap between G&B and US Wings?
So what? There is a gap between every OTHER brand mentioned as well.
If there weren't a gap, then they would be ranked EQUALLY.
The size of the perceived gap is totally irrelevant.
If two brands are not ranked equally, then they are, by default, ranked sequentially.
There are no non-existent placeholders
By YOUR ranking, the next best choice if one doesn't want or can't have a G&B is to not have a jacket at all.

Which is, as I stated before, completely meaningless.

I stand by my original comment, and add now that I'm seeing evidence of FAILure of the educational system.
In the interest of preventing this from escalating into a flame war, this will be my final word on this thread.
I'm not going to argue with you, _, as I feel it's more important to preserve the peace of the forum than to engage in a argument.
I hope you feel the same way, but if you must have the last word, you certainly are welcome to it.

Really? People aren't allowed to express their opinions on this board in a way that they find befitting to make their point? lol
Showing the gap between two jackets is meaningless? lol
I'll take the last word on this one if nobody wants it or if everyone is too magnanimous.

[sharkboy]

When i first opened the package for my Wested, I thought " what? thats it? " but oddly, it is the jacket that seems to be the most impervious to stiching problems. I think there are companies known for quality, but sometimes the best companies send out a dud, and some of the companies that have reputations for QC problems send you a product that just won't die.

Life is like a box of...... oh forget it.

it's an odd world.

SB

[soulman]

Sorry guys, I guess I was rather ignorant as to the gravity of my question. I actually believed that there was a fairly simple answer to be found and intended no harm. I figured from my point of view that since selling off all of my gear. Having as my only funtional possession a used, but well built Todds and knowing that this (USW Legend) will without doubt be my last Indy purchase as my personal health will no longer allow for a hobby. I was just looking to know if I was making the right choice.

[Rundquist]

Sorry guys, I guess I was rather ignorant as to the gravity of my question. I actually believed that there was a fairly simple answer to be found and intended no harm. I figured from my point of view that since selling off all of my gear. Having as my only funtional possession a used, but well built Todds and knowing that this (USW Legend) will without doubt be my last Indy purchase as my personal health will no longer allow for a hobby. I was just looking to know if I was making the right choice.

Nothing wrong with your question.

[sharkboy]

Well, if my budget allows I will be on board for the American made Legend. so it would get my seal of approval.

SB

[Weston]

This is a recurring question. All the jacket makers above put out a quaility product, some more reliably than others. I've never owned one but G&B is renowned for durability, as is the Wings. That said, so much of it has to do with how it's worn. You can even treat them fairly rough and they will be fine, but doing things like jamming fistfulls of keys into the hand warmers will create a problem no matter who made the jacket, or what kind of leather is used. I think, as awesome as the Indy jacket is, it has certain trouble areas. The barrel cuffs are prone to snagging and abrasion, the straps can get hung up things, or can be pulled tight enough to strain the leather or stitching. The apex of the side vent can be a tearing point.

The point is, I think the jacket design has it's own inherent problem areas that have the potential to show up no matter who makes the jacket.

Weston

[binkmeisterRick]

Ron541, I saw nothing out of hand and only read honest, legitimate opinions from all parties here before your comment. There's no need for you or anyone else in this thread to get bent out of shape for it. We are allowed to disagree, but it is how we express our arguments that is either civil or taken as baiting. If folks get that easily riled up over a simple opinion, then perhaps it's time to turn off the computer for a weekend. No need for anyone to comment further on this matter. Get back to the original topic at hand, please.

[CM]

As far as durability goes G&B is better and stronger than any leather jacket I have ever owned - I have owned 30, maybe more.

[donovan]

durability=g&b/wings (i own both).but which one would i wear if being dragged behind a truck ? well it would be my cow wested,why? because thats the one i could REPLACE the easiest.

[jacksdad]

My answer would have to be which jacket do you use daily and how has it held up. I think most of us have had jackets ten years or less but the ones that are in the 15 to 20 year range those are the ones you can say is durable. daily waer weather etc, even the a-2's of WWII needed reapairs from time to time its the ones you pull out for your kids when they are older and it's a hand me down is the most durable. So time will tell

[KingHamlet]

As much as I love Peter, I wouldn't recommend his jacket for durability. I've owned six westeds (only two Indy's), and have had the stitching pop, the ling tear, and one of the sleeves on one of my wife's jackets ripped. The jackets look great, and are excellent for tooling around town in, but I wouldn't put them up against hard wear.

My nowak on the other hand has survived far more than I expected. Though, what's happened to the company, I'll probably also retire that to my everyday jacket, and find something else for my adventure wear.

I can't speak for any of the other Indy jacket makers though.

I can understand _'s ordering system and would agree with his assessment.

[Rick Deckard]

Ugh, well, after singing the praises of my US Wings Naked Cow in other threads, after wearing it out of the house for the first time yesterday (finally cool enough), I noticed the the leather facing down near the zipper had pulled loose from the jacket. A good six to eight inches pulled away from the body of the jacket, it's almost the size of a pocket. The only thing I can fathom is that the stitching never went the whole way through and it took a day of wearing the jacket, as opposed to just trying it on in my house, to get the facing to detach.

I e-mailed Myke at Wings last night. Still waiting for a reply. I know the Naked Cow jackets that were offered to us for $195 were made overseas and probably aren't of quite the same quality as an in house Wings jacket, but still... . They shipped it to me on 06/25...I can't fathom they'll replace it after all that time. Word to the wise, buy your leather jackets in the fall, so they don't hang in a closet all summer. That way if there is a construction issue, you'll notice it a heck of a lot sooner.

If they don't offer to replace or repair it, anyone know of a type of glue that would hold it? With the jacket only costing $195, I don't feel like shelling out $50 or more to a seamstress, about a quarter the cost of the jacket.

I emailed Myke pictures. Maybe I'll post the same later.

Point is, it doesn't matter what company. Things slip through the cracks and there are QA issues with everyone. From what I can gather, though, most people swear by Wings with respect to durability. Now, do I still buy the G8 from them... ?

[FLATHEAD]

Use a flexible contact cement. Contact cement requires two stages. First you apply cement to both pieces of leather and allow them to dry apart. Once dry, you reapply to one of the surfaces and allow it to become tacky. THEN you put the pieces together. When done properly, the leather will give before the adhesive.

Not to sidetrack, but do you think this stuff would work on non-similar items?

Like say, to stick the bottom side of auto carpeting and a piece of vinyl together?

I ask as I want to add auto carpeting to the bottom of my 1985 Jeep Fold and Tumble seat I am
restoring and re-apolstering, and every addhesive I have used just lets loose when it gets hot outside. I can't
sew the carpeting on as I don't have a machine large enough to fit the pieces in, and the only
other thing I can think of is to use a hot glue gun.

Sorry for the non-Indy jacket question, but I would love to have something durable to help
hold the carpet on.

Thanks!

Flathead

[FLATHEAD]

Not to sidetrack, but do you think this stuff would work on non-similar items?

Nope. Try construction adhesive. But - FYI? It ain't gonna come off without using a grinder...

Thanks. I thought about using Gorilla glue too. I hear that's good stuff...

Flathead

[Rick Deckard]

Use a flexible contact cement. Contact cement requires two stages. First you apply cement to both pieces of leather and allow them to dry apart. Once dry, you reapply to one of the surfaces and allow it to become tacky. THEN you put the pieces together. When done properly, the leather will give before the adhesive.

Thanks for the response. If I don't hear back from Wings by tomorrow, I'll hit up my local Michael's. If they don't have it, Lowe's will.

[Rick Deckard]

_, thanks for the help, but Myke just e-mailed me and explained to me that I had discovered the hidden pocket!!! Of course he was kidding, though come to think of it, if I slapped some velcro onto the inside of the facing, it could be a pocket!

Myke then said he would send me a call tag and that he would exchange the jacket for me. I was not expecting an exchange, not after the jacket had been in my possession since June. I guess he took one look at the pic. and realized it was a construction/quality issue and obviously not something I could have done myself. I mean, how could you loosen a leather facing? It's not like getting the pocket hung up on a door handle and ripping the jacket.

There are only two things I expect from a business, and Wings has fulfilled both of those expectations. The first is that the business is honest, i.e. they sell you what is advertised. The second is that they stand behind their product with good customer service. I don't think a customer can expect much more than that. And Wings has delivered in both areas. There was a quality issue, they realized that, admitted to it and went above and beyond to rectify the problem. That's a business that will get my repeat business - no doubt.

So, looks like I'm off to order a G8 in the near future. Even though it's not an Indy jacket, I'll post pics. when I get it. Look forward to it as I love goat.