Durability vs. Comfort

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

hey everyone, well, as I just posted in my "Newbie" thread in one of the other sections, my old Indy fedora, a licensed job, and don't worry, I realize how god awful those are, but hey, it was a present, was left behind during my last PCS. So now I am stuck overseas hatless. Now, let me preface this post by stating that I have spent hours tonight digging through the archives, reading threads on the Henry, on the fed IV, the adventurer, etc., etc.

And what I gathered from these is the todds are bulletproof, but probably too stiff to be to my liking, the adventurer can't compare to the fed IV for daily wear, and the Henry is the best. Now, I was leaning very heavily towards the Henry, because, if I am going to buy 1 hat, that will be MY hat, I might as well go for the top, and everyone says it's breezy, feels like your almost not wearing it, etc, and the craftsmanship is obviously superb.

However, there is something quite...liberating, about owning something that isn't nice enough to baby. My first car, I sank thousands into, suping up everything I could, it was awesome, and then, my motor blew up. So for my second car, I bought a POS teg for a grand that I kicked the ever living @#$% out of with impunity. I think ones attitude towards a proper Indy lid should be similar. My hats go in the woods with me, into rainstorms, snows. I toss them casually in the backseat of my car and then grab it out roughly when I get to my destination.

Now, from what I've read, the fed IV is the only hat that can withstand true Dr. Jones level abuse. However, if it's uncomfortable to wear, then that would swing me towards the Henry. How much abuse can these other hats, especially the Henry, truly take? What's the tradeoff for comfort with the fed IV? Where can I find the best balance of these things?

Thanks all.

[BendingOak]

This has always bothered me. People think just because a hat is stiff, they think it's tuff. That's not the case. Not to knock any other label but all the other labels you posted here are rabbit felt. The Henry is a blend with 20% beaver to it. It will hold up to the elements better than any rabbit hat. I'm even up in the hair about how well my rabbit will hold up next to the Henry.

The Henry is the best made production hat I have seen. It has 20% beaver in it. My hand made rabbit doesn't have beaver in it but does get pre aging and the felt is stabilized. I'm not sure how much stabilizing the henryngets but it is blocked well. Which is the start of a well made hat. Most factory hats don't get the attention as the Henry.

Sorry to stick my nose in but a lot of miths have been start some how about bullet proof hats and there isn't such a thing and most certanly not in a production hat. The true tuff hats are the truly hand made using top self beaver felt. The ones people tend to baby and use the " so called bullet proof hat" as the daily. Most get this backwards. They buy a AB and baby it and only wear it once in a while while using the fed. For the ruff stuff. When in fact they should flip it around. Baby the
fed and use the AB.

The true test of a tuff, well made hat is how many re-blocks can it take. That would be the high end stuff. There is a reason they cost more and take longer.

Long story short you can get both.

Putting my nose away now.

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

If anyone's nose belongs in here, it would be yours. I think people get hung up on having such an investment in their hat, that they don't want to put it in harms way. Where as $100 hat is just below the realm of, ah #### it. I mean, if the fed IV gets trashed, they can buy two more before the Henry. But on the other hand, then you never get top shelf. Essentially what I'm saying is that, I am all about paying for quality, and I enjoy nice things. However, I don't buy a hat to go out one day a year when the weather is perfect and there's no dirt anywhere, just to walk to the grocer. I wear that fxxxgxn thing everyday. I wear it out when it's raining in lieu of an umbrella, I go hiking with it, I toss it around, etc. It's like a leather jacket. It may be nice, but I don't need or even want it to be pristine.

[binkmeisterRick]

A beaver hat will always put up with more abuse than a rabbit felt. Beaver is a far denser felt. That's not to say a rabbit felt won't put up with Indy adventures, either, but it also depends on the grade of rabbit. The trouble with "frisbee-stiff" hats (like cowboy hats) is that they can crack as the stiffener doesn't allow the felt any pliability. You bend it, and there is a possibility it will break like cardboard. That said, the reason why you'll find so many comments about the durability of the Akubra Federation line is because they have been field tested extensively through the years by gearheads who have purchased them and put them through the ringer. They are a great value for the money.

A rabbit/beaver blend will generally be a higher quality felt as you're adding the more dense beaver to the felt mix. If you can go pure beaver, then you're at top shelf, indeed. I've seen and handled a few Henry hats in person, and while I don't own one, I was very impressed with the quality of the hat, especially for a factory produced fedora. It doesn't seem like you can go wrong with one.

[Michaelson]

Just to give you fair warning, you'll find this topic, along with a GREAT many others in this hobby, based on subjective opinions. There is a thread of truth to all of them, but you'll find as many opinions on the topic as folks have, uh, elbows. There are facts...and there are opinions.

Your example regarding your car is a good one, but on the flip side, I know of just as many folks who would sob if the engine in their junker blew too, especially if it was their only means of transportation. A high end car such as yours may be their weekend toy, and a blown engine, though irritating, wouldn't keep them from putting food on the table that their grocery getter allows them to do. It's all in where your priorites and needs are placed.

So, look around the site. Use the search function at the upper right hand corner of this page and do some research and reading, and you may find exactly the information you were looking for already posted in triplicate....completely with photos.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

For the wear and durability that you are talking about, you would need a good beaver felt from John or Steve that would last you from now on AND take the abuse. Then I would suggest the Henry, etc.

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

I know the handmades are the end all be all knees of bees who reside in the cat's pajamas. But the wait time would be excruciating. From what I've been reading and hearing though, the Henry is probably the next best thing, and not by much.

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

oh and Michaelson, the thing about junkers is, they usually have got it where it counts. I did some crazy stuff in that teg, and it took a lot. But it started up everytime, and was recently sold, still running strong, even if the frame and suspension are a little out of whack

[Ian]

I think also, part of the illusion of delicacy with the Henry is down to the softness of the felt. The bash in my Henry needs tweaking every time I handle it because it's that soft and floppy the bash almost falls out. Despite all that though it's supposed to be as tough as nails.



Ian

[Texan Scott]

I used to think that I only needed a couple of fedoras, and if truth be known, I probably do. But I have found that I really enjoy collecting these hats. From the custom offerings of John & Steve to the Henry and Fed IV, or from the Fed IV working up, you can't go wrong.

[Michaelson]

oh and Michaelson, the thing about junkers is, they usually have got it where it counts. I did some crazy stuff in that teg, and it took a lot. But it started up everytime, and was recently sold, still running strong, even if the frame and suspension are a little out of whack

My new friend, I drive a 60 year old 1950 Plymouth Special Deluxe each and every day to work. You're not telling me anything I don't 'live' each and every day of my life.

As to the handmades, it also depends on who you deal with. for example, Peters Brothers lead time is not as long as John's, Steve's or Marc's, but then they have more 'hands' available to make your hat. With the exception of Marc who is Germany, PB also uses the same materials as the other two. It's all in where you go, and who you look at.

Regards! Michaelson

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

My impression was that the PB hats were a step below the adventurebilt and Penman material wise...

[Michaelson]

Exactly the same felt, and all obtained from the felt company located no more than 17 miles from where I'm currently sitting...Winchester Hat co. It's the finish that takes the time, and John and Steve are such perfectionists, it just takes longer.

PB makes a great hat, I own and have owned several, but they have such a volume of business, they don't get to spend as much time with a hat as they'd like sometimes in order to give you a quicker turnaround and keep work from backing up. That's where the work of John, Marc, and Steve shine...their finish work. Absolutely amazing.

Regards! Michaelson

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

I used to think that I only needed a couple of fedoras, and if truth be known, I probably do. But I have found that I really enjoy collecting these hats. From the custom offerings of John & Steve to the Henry and Fed IV, or from the Fed IV working up, you can't go wrong.

I'm more of a one at a time kinda guy. Even if I have many of a certain type of thing, one comes out as the favorite and the go to, and then gets used til I beat it to death, and am forced to move on.

[jasonalun]

I would like to counter what's been said about rabbit. The good rabbit felts, like Akubra, can last just as long as any beaver felt, under everyday conditions. No one is going to be drenching them in a river (I presume) or wearing them in desert heat and covering them with sand and dirt, like Indy. In normal conditions (meaning ordinary sunlight, occasional rain dampness) a quality, tough rabbit felt like the Akubra will stand up just as well as a beaver. Yes, if you were cowboy and dragging your hat through the dirt every day and sweating into it 18 hours a day in the hot sun, beaver would last longer in the long run (or at least not taper as much), but the average person here to my knowledge, is going to be treating their hats that way. So to my view (and long experience wearing rabbit fedoras) under these conditions there is no practical difference between good beaver felt and good rabbit felt. The idea that rabbit is somehow "inferior" in quality is just unfair, in my opinion. There are hatters that agree with me too, so I'm not just talking through my hat, pun intended. Rabbit and beaver are both good - they are just different. If you want breathability, lightness and nuanced creasing, you want rabbit. If you want density and extremely soft finish, you want beaver.

[Michaelson]

It also all depends on where you live too.

Until the past 10 years or so, ALL my hats were rabbit or rabbit blend of one kind or another. I've lived in Ohio, Florida, and Tennessee, and in all locations where there was a great deal of rain, I always wore mine in what ever inclimate weather Mother Nature threw my way. It was a hat, for pete's sake, and made to protect my head!

Every one of them tapered in one way or another, some worse that others (my Miller tapered so bad it looked like a dunce cap after two good rain storms! )

That said, I also agree with everything jasonalun wrote above, with the exception they're equal in to a beaver felt hat in comparison when subject to the same useage. I have not found that to be so in MY personal experience of over 40 years of fedora wear, and as stated in the past 10 years I've pretty much exclusively moved to wearing beaver now. Once again, it's all in where you live, and how you use your hat.

Don't sell a rabbit felt short....but do some shopping and research on the type of felt they're using. Some are definitely better than others. The Akubra is definitely a VERY big 'cut above' the rest, but then they mix domestic rabbit and jackrabbit fur, so it WOULD be tougher and less prone to taper. Just a solid outdoorsmans hat from the get-go.

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

...and PB uses Winchester felt. Top drawer stuff.
Yes. I'm biased.

Regards! Michaelson

[jasonalun]

I'm not really counting taper in my assessment because as long as the felt is not damaged you can always re-block it and your hat is virtually as good as new. But yeah, if you live in a hot, humid climate your rabbit hat is certainly more apt to taper than a beaver hat, although I've seen beaver hats taper something awful as well in heat and rain.

_, I'm not sure which ones you destroyed but I can see that happening to cheaper rabbit hats worn by someone who sweats a lot from the head (sorry, some do - like my son) and the hat having a machine-stitched sweat with close stitching that weakens the felt at the brim break. But if I'm understanding you correctly you say that your Akubras have survived, which I think proves my point about the good felts. I've had my Akubra in the snow, rain, heat, and sweated a fair amount into it, and it has held up like a champ - no taper even. I've got a very old Stetson that has tapered like crazy but the felt is in great shape and with a reblock that thing would look great again too. The felt is so soft and smooth it feels almost like a beaver hat. They don't make most rabbit hats like they used to, that's for sure, but with vendors here and some hatmakers like Akubra you can still get rabbit that will stand the test of time.

[Michaelson]

They don't make most rabbit hats like they used to, that's for sure, but with vendors here and some hatmakers like Akubra you can still get rabbit that will stand the test of time.

You can take THAT to the bank!

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

And, nope - I am not the spawn of Lucifer...

That's another topic all together.

[Michaelson]

[Ian]

...

Hey Jason - Yes, I'm agreeing with you. The ones I destroyed were Stetsons and a Miller. The Akubras rock - they were the lids I first looked at modifying way back when. So, yep - we agree. And, nope - I am not the spawn of Lucifer...

You a regular lid wearer _ or just on occasion?

Ian

[Ian]

Cool!!

Just got in from the rain and got my beaver lid soaked. Proper down pour as is quite common in the North of England - In fact the town I live in, Shaw, is an anagram of the word 'wash' So, the lid held up to that (so far), however, I've just recieved a headbutt off my boy whilst putting him down for the night. The lid failed me there.

Ian

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

how wet does a hat have to be to soak to the "core", since I have read in other threads once this happens, there's no helping it other than a reblock. What does this mean exactly?

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

I should also say, I'm from Maryland, which can be very humid, and rains pretty frequently. And while I don't know where I'm going next, I do want to go back home in the near future if possible

[Michaelson]

It pretty much depends on how dense the felt is made as to how quickly it will soak all the way through the hat.

Better hats, like the Akubra brand, take quite a while before that soak thru occurs, as they use two kinds of rabbit furs to make a dense felt.

Cheaper brands use loosely felted materials, which can (and do) immediately soak through at the first blush of rain.

The denser the felt, the more resistance to soak thru. You do get what you pay for when it comes to a good fur felt hat, regardless of which fur you go with.

As they dry, the hat begins to return to it's original cone shape when it was originally made, unless it's old or 'killed' felt that will no longer shrink. It's that shrinkage to the cone shape that is what we call 'taper' to the crown. Even a good beaver hat will try to taper if the felt isn't dead.

Regards! Michaelson

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

Ah....I see...I know what you are saying has been said, but the way you said it makes sense to me. So the density of the beaver is what really helps with all around toughness, which is why the henry is on top for factory, and the beaver handmade is on top. So then, how is the sweatband on the akubra? as the sweat and fit are what really make or break the hat for me.

[Michaelson]

To keep it brief, as I'm about to log off, and I'm sure someone will pick up where I left off, you're doing what I like to say a lot around here, 'comparing apples to oranges'.

Most, if not all, the beaver hats you see touted around here are hand made by an artisan. Items like the Henry and Akubra are factory made.

Each one has it merits, but you just can't beat a hand made hat, made to fit YOUR head rather than finding a generic hat and HOPE it fits, or MAKING it fit from use.

It's one of those things that once you've had one made and on your head, you have a hard time looking back. The hat really becomes an old friend, and is one of those things you reach for each time you walk to the door, rather than just a piece of head gear you put on when you think of it, or a (the horror!) ballcap.

There are varying grades of factory hats, and the Henry, being rabbit and 20% beaver blend, makes it on a higher rung than the Akubra, which, though a blend of furs, is a blend of RABBIT furs. Dense, but not as dense as the rabbit/beaver blend.

You also have varying grades and quality of sweats. Some are roan, some are cowhide, and even up to the rarified air of Kangaroo sweats. AKubras are roan, I believe, and very well made....but have a wire 'reed' in them that can eventually work through. Most good reed hats are softer material. I'm sure John or Steve (or another one of our hat gurus) will add more to the pile of information you're trying to absorb.

Regards! Michaelson

[binkmeisterRick]

pilgrim, what part of Maryland do you live in? If nearby the DC area, we might be able to arrange a meeting and I can show you some hats.

[BendingOak]

I would like to counter what's been said about rabbit. The good rabbit felts, like Akubra, can last just as long as any beaver felt, under everyday conditions. No one is going to be drenching them in a river (I presume) or wearing them in desert heat and covering them with sand and dirt, like Indy. In normal conditions (meaning ordinary sunlight, occasional rain dampness) a quality, tough rabbit felt like the Akubra will stand up just as well as a beaver. Yes, if you were cowboy and dragging your hat through the dirt every day and sweating into it 18 hours a day in the hot sun, beaver would last longer in the long run (or at least not taper as much), but the average person here to my knowledge, is going to be treating their hats that way. So to my view (and long experience wearing rabbit fedoras) under these conditions there is no practical difference between good beaver felt and good rabbit felt. The idea that rabbit is somehow "inferior" in quality is just unfair, in my opinion. There are hatters that agree with me too, so I'm not just talking through my hat, pun intended. Rabbit and beaver are both good - they are just different. If you want breathability, lightness and nuanced creasing, you want rabbit. If you want density and extremely soft finish, you want beaver.

Sorry to disagree with you my friend but I can not re-block the akubra hat like I do my own. The main reaso is the felt quality is the same as mine nor is the dye. They bleed way to much to water block them like I do my hats.


On another note. PB doesn't use the same felt just the same felter. The felter is just fantastic but the rabbit felt I use is made special just for me.

[BendingOak]

To keep it brief, as I'm about to log off, and I'm sure someone will pick up where I left off, you're doing what I like to say a lot around here, 'comparing apples to oranges'.

Most, if not all, the beaver hats you see touted around here are hand made by an artisan. Items like the Henry and Akubra are factory made.

Each one has it merits, but you just can't beat a hand made hat, made to fit YOUR head rather than finding a generic hat and HOPE it fits, or MAKING it fit from use.

It's one of those things that once you've had one made and on your head, you have a hard time looking back. The hat really becomes an old friend, and is one of those things you reach for each time you walk to the door, rather than just a piece of head gear you put on when you think of it, or a (the horror!) ballcap.

There are varying grades of factory hats, and the Henry, being rabbit and 20% beaver blend,
makes it on a higher rung than the Akubra, which, though a blend of furs, is a blend of RABBIT furs. Dense, but not as dense as the rabbit/beaver blend.

You also have varying grades and quality of sweats. Some are roan, some are cowhide, and even up to the rarified air of Kangaroo sweats. AKubras are roan, I believe, and very well made....but have a wire 'reed' in them that can eventually work through. Most good reed hats are softer material. I'm sure John or Steve (or another one of our hat gurus) will add more to the pile of information you're trying to absorb.

Regards! Michaelson

There are other things to consider when it comes to sweatband. I have seen kangaroo sweatband that are just ugly and put together by blind monkeys.

Best sweatband on the market is the ones Marc have made special for his hat. Hands down kicks everyone butt. It's not just the leather that is great but how the leather is treated. macros sweatbands are custom made and cost him dearly. His sweatband go though more steps than any sweatband. It's just amazing if I could tell you all the steps.


In the fed the wire is in the reed to help keep the shape of the sweatband. It's easy to get a kink in it and when you do it useless at that point. A good reed is made of plastic. Harder for a kink to happen and even if you get one it may be smoothed out a bit. Never liked the wire.

M, is correct. Comparing handmade to a production is like apples to oranges.

[pilgrim_in_an_unholy_land]

pilgrim, what part of Maryland do you live in? If nearby the DC area, we might be able to arrange a meeting and I can show you some hats.

I was born in DC, though right now, the family all lives outside of annapolis. But I am currently overseas. Should be back around January for a bit.

[binkmeisterRick]

Then ping me in January!

[Bemo]

So M, what about _'s other question?

On second thought....

Seriously, nice discussion and it elucidates and illuminates pretty clearly why John doesn't want to re-block other companies products; must just drive him crazy to work with inferior components.

[Indiana Bugs]

If I may interject regarding the Akubra Feds . . .

I have a III and IV. The III is a Deluxe (Heritage), and the IV is a standard (Imperial). They both hold their shape very well. The IV is stiffer than the III but both are great all-around hats. I can be in a wind storm in either and they will not blow off my head because the brims give way first, so theyre not that stiff.

The III has been relined and resweatbanded. I am not the original owner so I dont know how comfortable the originals were in this hat, but I can wear both all day long with no discomfort, and Im pretty sensitive to pressure points.

Each of these hats has been soaked. Both in the rain, and I deliberately soaked the IV to reblock it. Neither one had color run, and the IV took the reblock beautifully. The III came out of a rain storm unscathed.

If you want a great looking and wearing hat and dont want to spend a lot of money (relatively), take a closer look at the Akubra Feds.

Of course, this is all just only my humble opinion. YMMV.

[beaverlid]

It never hurts to have the Adventurebilt logo stamped on the sweatband of your fedora. When it is you know you are wearing quality! If it is good enough for Indy.....

[Michaelson]

Heavens yes, I just skimmed the surface of the topic, as folks have written BOOKS on the subject over the past several hundred years, and will probably continue to do so.

As John pointed out, some felts bleed where others don't due to their dyeing practices in manufacture. Stetson used powered dyes that actually ran if you got caught in a heavy rain storm. I can personally attest to this, and my kids still relate the story of the time their Dad walked them home from school in a storm with a river of brown water running down between his eyes from his hat.

Felters can and do make special runs of felts with differing blends of fibers for clients that make one felt a bit better than another, but once again, it all goes back to the final density of the felt that makes it water resistant, and raises the bar regarding quality of the final product.

We also know that ALL our hat makers studied long and hard the makeup of the sweats to determine which one would work best. One can create a masterpiece of a fedora, but if the sweatband isn't of the highest quality (it being the point where it actually touches the wearers body), it's all for nothing. No one is going to wear a hot and uncomfortable hat, no matter HOW good it 'looks'. It's the comfort factor that's primary to a person who wears hats on a regular basis. If that sweat is wrong or cheaply made, that hat will be left on the shelf.

I would also advise, when one of our hatmakers posts something, 'listen'. We just enjoy what they make...they LIVE it everyday, and are constantly learning about their craft, and their product. You can take anything they say to the bank when you're asking questions about your headgear.

LOTS of variables when it comes to our headgear.

As for 'man-boobs', uh, well, that's a horror story for another time, I'm afraid.



Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

From the high end hats to the fed, there is no compromise of durability and comfort. You simply get both. The fed is a very comfortable hat (sweatband) and the Henry, even more so.

[BendingOak]

If I may interject regarding the Akubra Feds . . .

I have a III and IV. The III is a Deluxe (Heritage), and the IV is a standard (Imperial). They both hold their shape very well. The IV is stiffer than the III but both are great all-around hats. I can be in a wind storm in either and they will not blow off my head because the brims give way first, so theyre not that stiff.

The III has been relined and resweatbanded. I am not the original owner so I dont know how comfortable the originals were in this hat, but I can wear both all day long with no discomfort, and Im pretty sensitive to pressure points.

Each of these hats has been soaked. Both in the rain, and I deliberately soaked the IV to reblock it. Neither one had color run, and the IV took the reblock beautifully. The III came out of a rain storm unscathed.

If you want a great looking and wearing hat and dont want to spend a lot of money (relatively), take a closer look at the Akubra Feds.

Of course, this is all just only my humble opinion. YMMV.

I never said the Feds cant be re blocked or they would bleed in the rain. They wont bleed in the rain. I can and have re blocked many feds and not have them bleed but I have to re block them differently then I would re block my own or a AB because of how the dye job of the Akubras felt. They are good just not great.

The Feds are good hats. Really good for the price. They just aren't great.

[Indiana Bugs]

If I may interject regarding the Akubra Feds . . .

I have a III and IV. The III is a Deluxe (Heritage), and the IV is a standard (Imperial). They both hold their shape very well. The IV is stiffer than the III but both are great all-around hats. I can be in a wind storm in either and they will not blow off my head because the brims give way first, so theyre not that stiff.

The III has been relined and resweatbanded. I am not the original owner so I dont know how comfortable the originals were in this hat, but I can wear both all day long with no discomfort, and Im pretty sensitive to pressure points.

Each of these hats has been soaked. Both in the rain, and I deliberately soaked the IV to reblock it. Neither one had color run, and the IV took the reblock beautifully. The III came out of a rain storm unscathed.

If you want a great looking and wearing hat and dont want to spend a lot of money (relatively), take a closer look at the Akubra Feds.

Of course, this is all just only my humble opinion. YMMV.

I never said the Feds cant be re blocked or they would bleed in the rain. They wont bleed in the rain. I can and have re blocked many feds and not have them bleed but I have to re block them differently then I would re block my own or a AB because of how the dye job of the Akubras felt. They are good just not great.

The Feds are good hats. Really good for the price. They just aren't great.

I wasnt doubting or contradicting you, John. I was merely giving a firsthand account of my experiences with very wet Akubras. I also feel they are really good for the price.

[BendingOak]

I understand and I was only pointing out that it wasn't normal wear or rain that would make them bleed. No, not at all. I was just pointing out that they do in fact bleed if I re block them like I would do one of my own hats. The fed is one of the hats I think you get your monies worth.

[Indiana Jeff]

Something else to keep in mind to increase durability is applying a water repellant to your hat from time to time. This goes a long way in keeping the core from getting wet. Steve has said he's used an off the shelf Scotchguard brand and John sells water repellant in his product line.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff