Anybody ever heard of "Whiplash Bullwhips" ?

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:51 am

I came acrosss this UK website that sells bullwhips: http://www.whiplashbullwhips.co.uk/ I was intrigued so I had a look. They sell 16 plait bullwhips, snake whips and stockwhips. They don´t go into much detail about the construction, all they really say is that they are made of leather. I clicked on their "Indy" model and it really looks like my Todd´s. Also, if you click on the "videos" part, there are youtube links of our man Adam Winrich in action

. I wonder if he is somehow affiliated with this company, although I have not seen any direct testimonials from him.

What do you guys think?

Cheers!
IndianaBravo

BaptisteTheFool · Post by **BaptisteTheFool** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:29 am

Well that doesn't exactly instill confidence, does it?

Looks shady if you ask me.

bernie47 · Post by **bernie47** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:02 am

I certainly recognise the photo of the bull whip and hat on the front page because the whip is one I made for a member here and he took that photo himself and actually posted it on this forum. Unless he is the owner of the site it looks like that was copied to start with sometime last year if my memory serves me correctly.

G-Roberts · Post by **G-Roberts** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:31 am

bernie47 wrote:I certainly recognise the photo of the bull whip and hat on the front page because the whip is one I made for a member here and he took that photo himself and actually posted it on this forum. Unless he is the owner of the site it looks like that was copied to start with sometime last year if my memory serves me correctly.

Thats not good at all if they are stealing pics of other peoples work and selling as there own. I wouldn't order anything from there and don't think anyone should. The site doesn't say who makes the whips or how they are built. STAY AWAY is what I say!!
Graeme.

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:12 pm

I wonder what Adam has to say about this?

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:15 pm

I clicked on their "Indy" model and it really looks like my Todd´s

Agreed, looks just like my Todd's, right down to the knots and unevenly cut strands.

Another thing I noticed is that they state that all orders are "dispatched within 24 hours"

So, either this guy is REALLY fast at plaiting, or he has a stockpile of Pakistani made whips, ready to ship. (I'm betting on the latter).

Also, look really closely at the picture of the dark brown whip in his photo section (the one that shows the fall hitch). See how wide that fall is? (Just like the one that came on my Todd's)

AND, is it just me, or does that brown whip appear to be painted? The color is just too even to be dyed. Even the CUT edges of the strands and the fall are the exact same color. (Plus, if you look at the fall hitch, you can see spots where they missed with the "spray paint".)

Seems to good to be true, which usually means.........

winrichwhips · Post by **winrichwhips** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:14 pm

I have no idea who this guy is. Looks like he too the bio off of my DVD and posted links to my YouTube videos. Though, he doesn't say that I'm recommending the whips at all, and the YouTube videos are out there for everyone.

-Adam

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:14 am

OK Adam, if you are fine with this, the enough said. Getting back to the product they are offering, I find abhorrent what Bernie said (3rd post on this thread) regarding the use of a picture of one of his whips to promote this website. I have take another look at the whips featured , and I reiterate and concur with kwad as well, that these are indeed from the same source that Todd get his from, although this guy sells them for 99GBP which is higher. If you look at one of the "whip holster" pics you can clearly see they are identical to Todd´s, right down to the crooked seams on the handle. I also believe that these are not 16 plait as advertised, but rather 12 plait. IMO, this has all the makings of being a dishonest setup and I would never consider purchasing a whip from this outfit.

Just my 2 cents

IndianaBravo

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:11 am

The one I looked at a close up pic of on the site was a 16 plait (You can count 4 strands going under one). It being 16 plait would justify the extra cost over the 12 plait that Todd's sells.

However the use of one of Bernie's Whips on their website is very shifty. That'd be like a ford dealer using pics of a BMW on their website.

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

thefish · Post by **thefish** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:55 am

This is nothing new.

I've seen it from several other online vendors, (a couple of them whip-related. Same MO: Using photos and video that wasn't theirs, nor did it demonstrate their work.)

I look at it as one of two things. It's either:

A) A person who KNOWS that what they are doing is illegal, but does it anyway because they don't have enough quality in their own product and have to associate themselves with those who do.

OR

B) A person who is utterly oblivious to the LEGAL issues of copyright and fair use, (incidently Adam, you're not ENTIRELY correct. They're using YOU to sell THEIR stuff. Yeah, it's YouTube, which seems to have this illusion that it's "just out there for everyone," but THIS is WAY over the line. Even though they don't SAY that you endorse or even use their whips, there isn't a disclaimer that says that they are in no way affiliated with you. Yeah, it's gray area, but it's STILL false advertising. They are using your non-commercial YouTube videos to turn a profit. Regardless if you don't mind, they are leeching off of the blood, sweat, and tears that you've racked up in training, hard work, and self-promotion to get to where you are today, and considering you didn't say, "It's OK. They contacted me, and asked if it was OK," I'll assume they didn't. I could be wrong on that. Props to you for being a nice guy about it, but legal issues aside, it's still bad form regardless if they're aware of it or not.)

Either way, regardless of their prices, regardless of their product, they're either a dishonest vendor or someone with no concept of etiquette and proper business practices. I do business with neither if I can help it.

There's Gus, there's Todd, there's Louie. These people make quality, affordable Indy Whips, and have proven themselves time and again by contributing to the collective knowledge we've amassed here on COW, and more importantly, standing behind their product to make sure their customers are taken care of.

This vendor, to our knowledge, has done none of the above.

If they're actually a member here, I'd be glad to hear their side of things and possibly retract my previous statements. Until then, I recommend steering clear.

There's far too much KNOWN talent and service available here to waste your time otherwise.

-Dan

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:22 pm

Is anymore known about these whips? I came across the site this afternoon and very nearly ordered, however i thought id do a search here first and came across this thread. Has anyone actually ordered?

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:27 pm

Just to add that i contacted them this afternoon too and i got a very speedy reply from a guy called Gary Tremble. Apparently they only sell 2 colours of cow hide as they have found them the most popular. Those 2 colours for the cowhide are Dark tan and black. Gary also said that these are high quality whips.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:50 pm

If I remember correctly, Mr. Wojcicki said that the picture found at the top of their site was actually a whip he made, not this Gary

guy. Even if my memory is incorrect and it was not made by wojcicki, that whip was not made by the whipmaker at whiplash whips

because it is MUCH higher quality than the pictures displayed for the whips in the rest of the site.

About what he said, would you really expect anything different? I mean, jrzjoe says his whips are high quality, and you probably

know about those. I've looked at the whips, and the seams on them twist VERY fast, VERY quickly, it's easiest to see on the two

tone whips. Seams make a full 180 degree twist in a matter of 6-8 inches, this will greatly hinder the whip's cracking ability. The

falls on the whip seem very wide, and very thin. Thin isn't a big deal, many actually prefer this, but the fact that they are very

wide tells you they will catch the wind easily, and not cut through it.

They way he has the whips shown, I cannot see their taper, which is another VERY important factor in the quality of a whip.

The whips are pretty cheap, but to say they are high quality... I definitely wouldn't classify them as such.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:53 pm

bernie47 wrote:I certainly recognise the photo of the bull whip and hat on the front page because the whip is one I made for a member here and he took that photo himself and actually posted it on this forum. Unless he is the owner of the site it looks like that was copied to start with sometime last year if my memory serves me correctly.

Yep right here, Bernie himself said it was one of his whips.

I decided to double check because I saw the crack of the whip, and it looked exactly like the way Bernie makes his crackers,

then I went back to read the posts and here it is, Bernie himself saying it's one of his whips.

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:23 pm

I re checked their site and they are now offering Roo hide whips, that do not look too bad. I wrote them an email requesting more info on the roo whips, who made them etc... I got a very curt reply that stated they were " from our supplier". One of my buddies purchased an eight foot cowhide from this outfit and was very dissapointed. He has been trying to sell it on the bazaar here in our local Indysite for ages...

Cheers
Bravo

tomek9210 · Post by **tomek9210** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:50 pm

And what exactly was wrong with that bullwhip?

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:23 pm

riku1914 wrote:If I remember correctly, Mr. Wojcicki said that the picture found at the top of their site was actually a whip he made, not this Gary

guy. Even if my memory is incorrect and it was not made by wojcicki, that whip was not made by the whipmaker at whiplash whips

because it is MUCH higher quality than the pictures displayed for the whips in the rest of the site.

About what he said, would you really expect anything different? I mean, jrzjoe says his whips are high quality, and you probably

know about those. I've looked at the whips, and the seams on them twist VERY fast, VERY quickly, it's easiest to see on the two

tone whips. Seams make a full 180 degree twist in a matter of 6-8 inches, this will greatly hinder the whip's cracking ability. The

falls on the whip seem very wide, and very thin. Thin isn't a big deal, many actually prefer this, but the fact that they are very

wide tells you they will catch the wind easily, and not cut through it.

They way he has the whips shown, I cannot see their taper, which is another VERY important factor in the quality of a whip.

The whips are pretty cheap, but to say they are high quality... I definitely wouldn't classify them as such.

Which picture do you mean? The picture with the whip and hat? If so then yes i do believe i have seen that photo elsewhere before.

If this Gary canot give more details as to who makes the whips then im staying well clear. I would like to see a photo of one of their whips that someone has actually bought though.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:18 am

morethanatimelord wrote:
riku1914 wrote:If I remember correctly, Mr. Wojcicki said that the picture found at the top of their site was actually a whip he made, not this Gary

guy. Even if my memory is incorrect and it was not made by wojcicki, that whip was not made by the whipmaker at whiplash whips

because it is MUCH higher quality than the pictures displayed for the whips in the rest of the site.

About what he said, would you really expect anything different? I mean, jrzjoe says his whips are high quality, and you probably

know about those. I've looked at the whips, and the seams on them twist VERY fast, VERY quickly, it's easiest to see on the two

tone whips. Seams make a full 180 degree twist in a matter of 6-8 inches, this will greatly hinder the whip's cracking ability. The

falls on the whip seem very wide, and very thin. Thin isn't a big deal, many actually prefer this, but the fact that they are very

wide tells you they will catch the wind easily, and not cut through it.

They way he has the whips shown, I cannot see their taper, which is another VERY important factor in the quality of a whip.

The whips are pretty cheap, but to say they are high quality... I definitely wouldn't classify them as such.
Which picture do you mean? The picture with the whip and hat? If so then yes i do believe i have seen that photo elsewhere before.

If this Gary canot give more details as to who makes the whips then im staying well clear. I would like to see a photo of one of their whips that someone has actually bought though.

Yes the one with the hat, Bernie himself said that he made that whip, and gave no permission to whiplash to use that picture.

He said he made that whip for a member here, then the member posted the picture with the hat here. When I see stuff like that

I don't even consider buying from these people, and I'll always suggest against it. Like recently Louie foxx found a picture on

one of jrzjoe's ebay ad's , that had a picture of a whip Louie himself made! Louie had 100% rights to it because the picture

was only ever uploaded to his own blog, and on top of that , he had his website, bullwhips.org , printed on the bottom of the

picture, and jrzjoe cropped it out, claiming he never saw it and was just resizing the picture.

I've heard of stuff like that

from him on multiple occasions.

But yes, they have one of Bernie Wojcicki's amazing whips, without his permission, displayed on their site as if it was one of

theirs.

darksideman13 · Post by **darksideman13** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:14 am

I do not wish to sound rude, but now that we have brought it to the forums attention that this Gary (and his business) seems to be a "shady" place, I feel we should leave it be. What can be said, has been said. I do HIGHLY suggest that we create a sticky thread with people who you should not do business with. Something we can add to as news of these dealers are brought to our attention. Maybe something with a "what to look for in a whip" section. Just my opinion however.

Kindest,
Luke

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:50 am

darksideman13 wrote:I do not wish to sound rude, but now that we have brought it to the forums attention that this Gary (and his business) seems to be a "shady" place, I feel we should leave it be. What can be said, has been said. I do HIGHLY suggest that we create a sticky thread with people who you should not do business with. Something we can add to as news of these dealers are brought to our attention. Maybe something with a "what to look for in a whip" section. Just my opinion however.

Kindest,
Luke

Good idea, i agree. As someone who is only just leabing about what to look for in a whip, something like you have suggested would be of great help.

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:18 am

tomek9210 wrote:And what exactly was wrong with that bullwhip?

The whip was purchased through an ebay site that offered no returns. He found the plaiting to be sloppy and the whip darker than pictured.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:23 am

IndianaBravo wrote:
tomek9210 wrote:And what exactly was wrong with that bullwhip?
The whip was purchased through an ebay site that offered no returns. He found the plaiting to be sloppy and the whip darker than pictured.

So the whip wasnt bought directly from Whiplash' website?

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:14 am

They have an ebay outlet as well, just like Todds costumes. Apparently the money back thing does not apply.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:45 am

IndianaBravo wrote:They have an ebay outlet as well, just like Todds costumes. Apparently the money back thing does not apply.

Are they still activly selling? what is their ebay name?, i did a quick search for them using 'outdoorhobbies' and 'whiplashwhips' but nothing came up

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:23 am

I dont really know, this was about a year ago. Try ebay under bullwhips. The pictures used and the location will narrow it down.

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:45 am

I seem to recall finding them on ebay once while browsing through the @#$%

I might try to now just to see what their actual whips look like.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:49 am

riku1914 wrote:I seem to recall finding them on ebay once while browsing through the @#$%

I might try to now just to see what their actual whips look like.

I must admit, iam very curious to see one of their whips to see if they match thevpics on their site

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:27 pm

Naturally, you would want to display your very best work on your website, right? Well if that is their very best, ( other than wojcicki's

) then I dread seeing what their usual stuff is

I think though the point has been made, that they are not great whips, despite what "Gary" says...

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:32 pm

riku1914 wrote:Naturally, you would want to display your very best work on your website, right? Well if that is their very best, ( other than wojcicki's ) then I dread seeing what their usual stuff is

I think though the point has been made, that they are not great whips, despite what "Gary" says...

Yeah, i was put off right away when i asked for more photos of his whips and all he could say was "All the photos are on the site"

Surely if you want to sure your work off to make a sale you would send pictures to any possible buyer to promote your work right?.

For instance, im a model maker. When someone is interested in commissioning me for a model i send them a few examples of my work. First Gary told me that all the photos are on the site and then he tells me that he only sells 2 colours, black and Dark tan?! Then why picture all the other colours of whips when you no longer sell them?!

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:52 pm

That's exactly true! On his site he had a saddle tan whip, a bunch of natural tan whips on the top of the whip page, black and red,

black and white, etc. !

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:24 pm

Yes, he claims that dark tan and black are the most popular colours so they stuck with those. I find that hard to believe, certainly with Indy fans as id assuming most would go for natural tan?

riku1914 · Post by **riku1914** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:58 pm

I'd think so, all the indy whip's I've made for people were either natural, or saddle tan, 80% being natural.

morethanatimelord · Post by **morethanatimelord** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:13 pm

Still intersted in seeing any photos of these whips from people who actually own them

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