Penman TOD prototype 9/3/10 update

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:58 am

Like the title states................

Canyon · Post by **Canyon** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:06 am

Wow! I love it! Great work, John!!!

Can't wait to see more photos!

SpeedRcrX · Post by **SpeedRcrX** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:25 am

Really great hat John!

Outstanding job!!!

AZ Pete · Post by **AZ Pete** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:30 am

Wow...I really like that hat!! Nice work.

Pete

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:35 am

I'm pretty sure the ToD shirt didn't have stripes, though alternative gear is always interesting. Nice lid

I'm not entirely sure what my feelings are on the ToD hat, as far as what it definitely looks like, but that is not a bad looking hat. I think the lighting in these pics might be washing out some of the detail though... it looks like the general ToD shape is in there, but it's hard (for me at least) to see. But I've recently started to like the ToD hat, so I'm looking forward to seeing this progress

-KB

TenuredProfessor · Post by **TenuredProfessor** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:41 am

Perfect, John!!! Didn't think I ever wanted a ToD hat, but those pics have me sold. It pains me to think about ripping a sleeve off any of my shirts though

Excellent work!!!!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:50 am

Kentucky Blues wrote:I'm pretty sure the ToD shirt didn't have stripes, though alternative gear is always interesting. Nice lid

I'm not entirely sure what my feelings are on the ToD hat, as far as what it definitely looks like, but that is not a bad looking hat. I think the lighting in these pics might be washing out some of the detail though... it looks like the general ToD shape is in there, but it's hard (for me at least) to see. But I've recently started to like the ToD hat, so I'm looking forward to seeing this progress

-KB

What details are you looking for?

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:56 am

Very nice!

Kentucky Blues · Post by **Kentucky Blues** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:01 pm

It's mostly the pinch... It just looks somehow different. I think it's just the sunlight though, probably mixed with the nice felt. I'm about 99% sure that the screen used felt was a little on the not-so-good side, which I think has an effect on the look. I'm also used to seeing more taper with a ToD hat. But the more I look at it, the more I like it, so you have to be doing something right

-KB

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:32 pm

John,

Looks great. Is it more in the "Bridge scene" vein? What felt did you use?

Matt

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:49 pm

Kentucky Blues wrote:It's mostly the pinch... It just looks somehow different. I think it's just the sunlight though, probably mixed with the nice felt. I'm about 99% sure that the screen used felt was a little on the not-so-good side, which I think has an effect on the look. I'm also used to seeing more taper with a ToD hat. But the more I look at it, the more I like it, so you have to be doing something right

-KB

The TOD hat was a rabbit felt and if it's remotely like the modern stuff it's not that great. This is pure beaver top shelf stuff so there will be that difference.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:53 pm

Hi, John,

Please feel free to ignore these comments because when it comes to commenting on SAness, there are far more qualified people here than me, but I felt (

...felt...get it?) that your post was asking for constructive criticism. ;

Looking at some screen shots; The crown on the ToD looks really low compared to yours and seems to have more taper. To me, your lid looks far too good to be a ToD. I don't know if all that is just down to that fact that you're using top quality pure beaver instead of low quality rabbit.

. That said, if I had to choose which movie it came from, then I'd defo say ToD.

I reckon that you've got the brim crack-on.

I'd kind of describe it as a vast improvement on the ToD lid.

I don't really like the ToD hat, but I love your prototype.

Ian

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:11 pm

Oh, I agree. It's hard to nail down the specs for The Temple hat. The specs change so much from hat to hat. More so than any other movie. What I'm trying to do is get is a oval all look going. That I can have the specs in hand when someone comes to me for a TOD hat but don't have a scene in mind.

I'm already working on the next prototype but these take time. I work them on the weekends.

this one might go up for sale. I just don't have the room anymore.

John

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:57 pm

That lid won't touch the floor. What size is it?

So, have you made/developed a new block just for ToD?

Ian

DanielJones · Post by **DanielJones** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:00 pm

Looks great John!

If that was the one in your shop the other week, all I can say is, Wow! It felt & looked great in person, even under artificial lighting. Sunlight seems to make it pop.

Cheers!

Dan

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:57 pm

Ian ,
23 inches and I have been redoing all blocks to be SA as possible. TOD is just one of a bunch being worked on. The first was Raiders, then I had a new, TOD , LC , YIJ, CS, CS travel. I also reworking all my non-Indy blocks to work out some miner details that I never 100% liked. The whole fleet is getting a face lift.

I wanted to be able to offer not only a good offering of the Raiders hat but all of the Indy hats. I'm finding TOD to be the hardest to get a set of specs.

Dan,

This is the hat you saw at the shop. I'm going to put it up for sale here shortly but if any of you two guys want it I'll let either one of you have it at a slightly lower price.

John

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:29 pm

Looks great John! I am not that big of a fan of the ToD hat... but yours looks great! Just one question though- why don't you make more prototypes in a 24 1/4"?

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:38 pm

John, I definitely think you achieved your goal of getting a great overall sense of the "ToD look." The brim especially looks spot on for a lot of the shots in ToD. Bravo!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:42 pm

jnicktem wrote:Looks great John! I am not that big of a fan of the ToD hat... but yours looks great! Just one question though- why don't you make more prototypes in a 24 1/4"?

I make all prototypes my size. I work on getting the specs to work for me and then adjust them according to size. Believe it or not there is a method to my maddness.

John

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:43 pm

That's what I was afraid of... btw- I think I know what I am going to order for my 6th Penman!

Also- I would love to see a pic of this hat from the top!

PsychicsAndSwords · Post by **PsychicsAndSwords** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:54 pm

Oh man. THAT is nice. Never been a huge TOD hat fan, but something about that just screams gorgeous. (In a totally tough and manly way, of course

). Maybe it's because it looks to have less taper than the screen hats generally did? Me no likely taper.

Anyway... I think I read on here somewhere at some point that you have green felt? Because I'm thinking that would look pretty #### good in green with a black ribbon.

Either way, I may have to strongly consider ordering one of these early next year, after I get my Raiders hat (hopefully) this year.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:57 pm

Looking good John! Can't wait to see what you come up with when it's finished

DanielJones · Post by **DanielJones** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:02 pm

BendingOak wrote: Dan,

This is the hat you saw at the shop. I'm going to put it up for sale here shortly but if any of you two guys want it I'll let either one of you have it at a slightly lower price.

John

Ah John, if only I could afford it right now, I'd jump on the deal. That lid seemed to fit as though you made it for me. When I'm working again I'll be sure to order another & another, but for now I'll admire and wait for the one already ordered. Which should be coming near the end of the month.

Please tell me it'll be started soon.

Just teasing, take your time I am really in no rush.

Cheers!

Dan

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 pm

I do have a color called dark moss. You can see it on my site www.penmanhats.com it's the one in the upper left corner with a vintage moss green ribbon. You can also see another dark moss hat on the home page with a two tone not. The ribbon isn't black it's the Indy brown ribbon on the dark moss.

John

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:30 pm

That dark moss is a beautiful color, too!

PsychicsAndSwords · Post by **PsychicsAndSwords** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:31 pm

BendingOak wrote:I do have a color called dark moss. You can see it on my site http://www.penmanhats.com it's the one in the upper left corner with a vintage moss green ribbon. You can also see another dark moss hat on the home page with a two tone not. The ribbon isn't black it's the Indy brown ribbon on the dark moss.

John

You talking about the one in the "about the hatter" pic? That's a nice color...

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:32 pm

Hey John- what is that hat under the main pic on your home page? I love it!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:58 pm

jnicktem wrote:Hey John- what is that hat under the main pic on your home page? I love it!

That a dark moss "the Penman" offering of mine with a two tone knot. The ribbon is the dark brown Indy with the moss green for the two tone know. I think that's the one you guys are talking about.

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:01 pm

The picture I'm looking at looks more grey than green- although it could be the lighting.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:31 am

BendingOak wrote:
jnicktem wrote:Hey John- what is that hat under the main pic on your home page? I love it!

That a dark moss "the Penman" offering of mine with a two tone knot. The ribbon is the dark brown Indy with the moss green for the two tone know. I think that's the one you guys are talking about.

I think it's also the one you're wearing in your 'about the hatter' shot. Looks like it's shown with different dents. I've had my eye on that one for a while now.

BendingOak wrote:Ian ,
23 inches and I have been redoing all blocks to be SA as possible. TOD is just one of a bunch being worked on. The first was Raiders, then I had a new, TOD , LC , YIJ, CS, CS travel. I also reworking all my non-Indy blocks to work out some miner details that I never 100% liked. The whole fleet is getting a face lift.

I wanted to be able to offer not only a good offering of the Raiders hat but all of the Indy hats. I'm finding TOD to be the hardest to get a set of specs.

You're tweaking your CS? Even Steve says that it's very accurate.

Ian

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:24 am

This is the first truly accurate ToD hat I've ever seen. What a beauty! I love it, John. With shallower side dents, it'd be a dead ringer for the suspension bridge scene. Keep it up, my friend.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Well, I certainly think you are in the ballpark with this hat John. And as you said, the TOD hat seems to change a bit in the film, which may be that Stetson supposedly placed a hat in that film. I always wondered if the bridge hat was a Stetson. The specs on the Stetson's that were sold as Indy hats, when they had the license to make them was 5 inches open crown, brim 2 5/8 by 2 3/8. If one is to assume they copied an HJ to some extent, perhaps the Hjs were close to these specs as well, not really sure though. I do think Stetson actually did not mass produce the hats they placed in the film, but had a in house hatter make them personally. And there may have been variances between the hats they sent to the films and the ones they mass produced for late sale.

I personally saw an HJ back before I started making hats with a 5 inch open crown, as well as 5 1/2 crowns and 5 3/4. HJ never was consistent later on with crown heights.

It does seem that the TOD hats did have taper in the blockshape, as they don't appear as straight as the Raiders. The thing is, when you use a block with taper, you most times have to adjust brim width to fit with the shape of the crown. A tapered hat needs less brim, where a straighter hat, need more, at least on the sides. To keep a decent proportion. I was amazed at the way a crown shape dictates brim width. For instance, on the Stetson Temple, if the brim came 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 for my or your sized hat, it would look "off" at least if going for an Indy look. The smaller brim on the Temple looks good.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:15 pm

Steve,

Do you think this brim specs work for me or should I make it a tad wider. Ie:1/8 inch.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:03 pm

BendingOak wrote:Steve,

Do you think this brim specs work for me or should I make it a tad wider. Ie:1/8 inch.

After looking at it a bit, yeah, 1/8 an inch would be good at least on the sides.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:18 pm

Fedora wrote:
BendingOak wrote:Steve,

Do you think this brim specs work for me or should I make it a tad wider. Ie:1/8 inch.
After looking at it a bit, yeah, 1/8 an inch would be good at least on the sides.

I was thinking take the crown a 1/8 and adding a 1/8 to the brim oval all.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:47 am

BendingOak wrote:
Fedora wrote:
BendingOak wrote:Steve,

Do you think this brim specs work for me or should I make it a tad wider. Ie:1/8 inch.
After looking at it a bit, yeah, 1/8 an inch would be good at least on the sides.
I was thinking take the crown a 1/8 and adding a 1/8 to the brim oval all.

Yes, a good idea. I recall back when I was experimenting with different blockshapes in regards to the Raiders fedora. As I said above, I was astounded at how the blockshape affected the appearance of the proportion of the crown to the brim aspect of the hat.

I had taken one of my own hats with a 2 3/4 by 2 1/2 brim and reblocked it on a fuller block(which ended up being the CS block later on) and quickly noticed the brim looked too short for a Raiders fedora! As time went on and I used the CS block for a Raiders fedora, I went with the 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 brim and this brought the brim back into a closer proportion to the overall look of the hat. The interplay between blockshape and brim width is more than one might think at first glance.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:53 am

I have been going back and forth with the TOD and LC hat and Im starting to think that some of the LC hats were smaller brims than the TOD hat. I'll see if I can get some shots to post.

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:08 am

John,
I'm starting to think I need a TOD bridge scene hat.......something in a 7 3/4.........and I think you may be the man for the job - incredible work as usual.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:25 am

BendingOak wrote:I have been going back and forth with the TOD and LC hat and Im starting to think that some of the LC hats were smaller brims than the TOD hat. I'll see if I can get some shots to post.

Reckon you're right about that....
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1720880384/tt0087469

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2995948800/ch0001063

Although it's hard to tell sometimes due to the curl in the LC. Some of the LC shots, the crown looks quite low as well.

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2761067776/tt0097576

Ian

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:54 pm

Now you know why I have been wearing the mad hatter hat recently. Both movies (TOD and LC) the hats specs are all over the place. It's really going to be hard to settle on a standard spec for these hats. More so than the book end hats.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:24 pm

Aye, I do....especially when it is supposed to be the same hat all the way through. From my point of view, my favorite hat is from the Venice pier scene, but when I think of an LC lid, this one captures it all..IMO.

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2995948800/tt0097576
The brim on that one doesn't even look 2 1/2" to me, maybe even 2 3/8". Hard to tell with the curl.

I reckon you've got it though, with the following link, when compared to the above link.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pho ... 4652933449

Ian

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:34 pm

I think both hats, temple and LC will be a constant struggle.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:46 pm

BendingOak wrote:I think both hats, temple and LC will be a constant struggle.

Dude!! I ordered your LC 'cos I think it's perfect

Ian

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:59 pm

Ian wrote:
BendingOak wrote:I think both hats, temple and LC will be a constant struggle.
Dude!! I ordered your LC 'cos I think it's perfect

Ian

Agreed. I thought earlier in the thread Oak had said he was improving on the block, and my first thought was, "What could he possibly have done to make this one better?"

Travis

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:49 am

Come now. Master craftsmen are never satisfied with their product, so they continually tweak their work. There are examples all over this particular section where Marc, John, and Steve are constantly working on their hat blocks, and still they're not happy.

Shows they care...or as John hints at, just a little bit 'mad'?

Regards! Michaelson

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:38 am

It IS said that there's a pretty fine (and blurry) line between "madness" and "genius"...

But kooks like Steve and John sure do make smart lookin' hats!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:15 am

Michaelson wrote:Come now. Master craftsmen are never satisfied with their product, so they continually tweak their work. There are examples all over this particular section where Marc, John, and Steve are constantly working on their hat blocks, and still they're not happy.

Shows they care...or as John hints at, just a little bit 'mad'?

Regards! Michaelson

You got that right! When a hatter is fanatical about a certain hat, you seem to always see something that doesn't look quite right. So off you go trying to correct it, to find the correction now makes something else look "off".

This generally goes on until one, you die from old age, or two, you go mad....as a hatter. I think you gotta be a bit "off" to be a hatter to begin with.

Ok, I am just speaking for myself here, as I don't want to drag my other friends down with me.

I actually have stopped tweaking my blocks, finally, but its not because I ever thought I had finally nailed the Raiders block. I just got tired! I never really attacked the TOD or LC block though, like John is doing. Heck, I could never get completely satisfied with the Raiders blockshape! Adding those other two would have put me in a mental ward somewhere.

Some folks start using screen grabs and ghost images of their own hats to show they are dead on....except when you see the fruits of their work on some of our fans heads, suddenly that extremely accurate looking hat doesn't look accurate at all. It will drive you bonkers, if you let it. My only salvation came with Indy 4. I finally can replicate one Indy fedora exactly like the film.

I think Bernie saved me from complete madness.

The most accurate LC fedora was posted here a few years ago. It was a Stetson Temple, creased identical to the hat worn by Indy when his father was shot. I have never seen any other hat that was as close as this one. I think if I were gonna research the LC block, I would buy a Stetson Temple, knock it out open crown and then copy that shape for my LC block. But, it might only match that one hat in that one scene! You might have to have another completely different block to replicate other hats in TLC. So, you can see how this can drive a guy bonkers.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:52 am

You are so right my friend. Both TOD and LC are all over the place. It is driving me a little nuts. Heres how nuts its driving me. Im starting to like the TOD hat Better than the LC hat.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:15 am

Reminds me of an old story of a master brass door finisher of the old school of architectural creation and production.

He had worked his entire life doing the final surface finishes to solid brass doors for very expensive homes many years ago.

He was once asked how he knew he was done with a door.

He thought for a moment, and replied, 'When they come and take the door away."

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:58 am

BendingOak wrote:You are so right my friend. Both TOD and LC are all over the place. It is driving me a little nuts. Heres how nuts its driving me. Im starting to like the TOD hat Better than the LC hat.

You know, I have always liked the bridge scene TOD hat alot. It just has a different look, and I really love the way the brim is on that one hat. It just looks different than most of the other TOD hats in that film.

Reminds me of an old story of a master brass door finisher of the old school of architectural creation and production.

He had worked his entire life doing the final surface finishes to solid brass doors for very expensive homes many years ago.

He was once asked how he knew he was done with a door.

He thought for a moment, and replied, 'When they come and take the door away."

Oh boy, can I relate to that! I always have had a hard time "finishing up" with any hat that I make. I mean, I guess I only mail them out because I know the guy has waited so long on it!!

I have never ever made a single hat that I was 100 per cent happy with. There is always something that I percieve that could be better. I think its a personal mental affliction though.