Opinions-heavier versus lighter whips...

[Indydawg]

Morning, all-

I don't usually spend a lot of time in the whip section. But I've got a non-technical question that, I think, will illicit some technical responses from those of you in the know about the whip and its functionality.

My first whip was a Stenhouse-heavier handle, very well-balanced because of it....loved that whip. I sold it a few months ago to another member here (hope you're enjoying it, Will), and through some twists and turns, ended up commissioning a new whip from Joe Strain-just a standard Indy in natural tan....and it's an amazingly well-made whip...very tight...very nice!

However...the balance on the whip is nothing like on the Stenhouse because, I think, the handle is different. Bernado told me in an email, and I remembered from when Paul made my first whip, that he used a very heavy spike for his handle bases....maybe Joe's aren't quite the same? At any rate...I'm still trying to get used to what seems to be a much lighter, and significantly tighter, whip.

My question for you guys who know better than I do...and it's mostly an opinion question....which do you prefer and why....a heavier handled whip that places more of the weight in the handle to offset the length of the whip or a lighter overall whip. What do you think are the benefits of one versus the other....

Thanks for the opinions in advance....they will help me make a decision.

High Regards!
Indydawg

[Chewbacca Jones]

I actually prefer a lighter handle, but a heavier lash... if that makes sense. Maybe it's because I have used whips of different hides, and thus the leather itself has varied in weight. But I find it takes less energy to crack a whip of a heavier hide, and I find a lighter handle saps less of my strength, allowing me to play longer!

[WhipDude]

I've got some whips in different weights ranging from incredibly light to somewhat heavy. Heavy or light, a good whip will be balanced. We do all have our preference when it comes to weight but don't forget about balance. A 20 foot whip won't be light and a 2 foot whip won't be super heavy. If you find it easier to crack a whip that is of a certain weight, it says something about skills (not to sound blunt). I'll make note that I'm not talking about what you find more easy physically. Sure, a light whip feels easier and you are less worn out. A 10 foot Indy Jacka will probably kill you sooner then a 6 foot Murphy.

What do I prefer? If Indy, I like them to be heavy. If I want to do target work or 2 handed routines, then something light. Your Stenhouse is probably much heavier then your Strain. I've heard that Stenhouse was modeled heavily after Morgans. I have a Strain and while it isn't as heavy as some, it's still heavier then others. It's just the switch that you have to get use to. Try to feel and listen to what your whip is telling you when cracking. Take things slowly and made adjustments.

If you are 100% stuck on heavier, then make sure to research well balanced heavy whip makers. If you want lighter overall, then look around for a well balanced lighter whip. You need to ask yourself what you plan to do with your whip as well. Most people doing intense amounts of targeting go light and short. But you have some people (I believe Winrich) prefer heavy for targeting.

A heavier whip does not crack easier. If you really think about it, the logic would indicate that a heavier whip is better made? Not true because any well made whip, light or heavy should crack with great ease and grace.

[WhipDude]

Dawg,

Here are some great threads for in-depth reading concerning weight.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46470&hilit=light+heavy

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40308&hilit=light+heavy

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21679&hilit=light+heavy

[Indydawg]

Thanks, Whipdude....

I'll admit that my skills are sub-sophomoric at best....I've just not handled a whip enough. One of the reasons I sold the Stenhouse was that I felt like I just wasn't using it enough to warrant keeping it...then, after it was gone, I couldn't stand it and had to have another whip!! Couldn't raise Paul, so I went with Joe instead.

I can't say I feel like the heavier whip cracked more easily...just that it felt more...substantial. I liked the heft of it. I wish I had them to compare side by side now which I "feel" cracks more easily....Oddly enough, it does "feel" harder to crack this whip that is so much lighter....but, you're probably right...it will just take some getting used to.

Thanks for the opinions...and I'll be sure to read through those other threads!
Regards!
Indydawg

[WhipDude]

I can see what you mean Dawg. It may seem like a heavier whip has more bang, but that's not so. I use to think that until I talked it through with some people. And of course you may actually prefer heavier whips, which is fine. Since it is an Indy whip, you may feel better with such a whip. Considering you aren't looking to own stocks and knock coins off somebodies tongue, I'd say go with what you feel comfortable with the most.

[Indydawg]

Yeah-you make another good point. Trouble is I just don't really know what feels best...again, I don't have the two in front of my to try out.

Best my memory serves me, though...and odd as it may seem...this Strain whip seems like I am working harder to crack it...and I know that shouldn't be.

I do wonder if I am, in fact, off in my own technique....

Time to watch those whipcracking videos again!!!

Thanks, again, Whipdude!
Indydawg

[Gaucho]

Guys


I allways prefer a heavy handle, and a heavy thong also.
I like the balance and a crack more strong produced by heavy whips.

Now, I have only one light whip, is a Australian 8 foot, 8 plait made by Mike Murphy.



Regards.

[DarenHenryW]

Hey, Guys

Here's my two (or three) cents . . .

My first kangaroo whip was a 10' EM Brand whip, made by Bernie Wojcicki of Tasmania. Before that I had an 8' nylon whip made by Ron Allen. Bernie's whip was longer (obviously) but MUCH heavier, with a longer handle. My first thought when I got it was, "Oh, so THIS is what a real kangaroo whip is supposed to feel like." Then a few months later I got my first Strain, an 8' KOTCS whip. Well, having become accustomed to my Wojcicki whip, I initially thought there was something "whimpy" about Joe's whip. Then I got my 10' Jacka Indy IV and was actually surprised to find it even heavier than the Wojcicki. But after I got a 9' Raiders from Bernardo Del Carpio, then a 10' Raiders whip from Joe Strain, a 10' Indy whip from Paul Nolan, and a 2001 10' Indy style whip by David Morgan, I came to realize that Joe Strain, Paul Nolan, Bernardo Del Carpio, and David Morgan all make their Indy whips relatively the same weight (for the obvious reason that Joe, Paul, and Bernardo are trying their best emulate David's iconic whips.) To me, the weight of these whips is the standard for Indy whips (and who could argue with that, since David set the standard?) I've never owned a Stenhouse, so I can't compare there, but owning a Morgan, Strain, Del Carpio and Nolan, I can say that I pretty much know how these whips should feel. That said, I have two other Jackas of different weights, two other short, light Strains (4 footers); I own a 6' Midwest whips Indy whip, which is fairly light, and I've handled Peter Jack and Mike Murphy whips, and numerous others. No one weight is perfect, and every whip is a little different than every other. First and foremost, I agree, is balance. And with greater technique comes a greater ability to manage whips of different lengths, weights, handle lengths, and thicknesses.

Bottom line, keep practicing, keep comparing whips (if you know other whip-crackers or can afford more whips) and keep an open mind!


From left to right: 8' Strain, 9' Del Carpio, 10' Strain, 10' Nolan, 4' Strains, 10' Jacka Indy IV, 7' "DeLongis" handle Jacka



10' Morgan, 5' Del Carpio, 9' Del Carpio, 10' Nolan, 10' Strain



10' Jacka Indy IV, 6' Jacka with 10" handle, 7' Jacka "DeLongis" style 13.5" handle


Hopefully, these photos will give you a sense of how different style whips and whipmakers approach the thickness of the handle and thong. For the most part, the whips that look like they have the same thickness and shape have a comparable weight. The thicker whips are heavier, the thinner whips are lighter. Stands to reason . . . But like I said, there always minor variations.

Jack Henry

[Indydawg]

Hi, Jack.

I'm glad you mention the thickness of the thong....that is one of the first things that I noticed about the Strain-the thong IS considerably thinner than my Stenhouse was.

And no, I don't have the means to own multiple whips....so, that does pose a problem for me "trying out" other options.

I guess the main thing is that I need to practice more and work on my technique. Again-it could be that I'm just "used" to manhandling the heavier whip and this one is just "too light" for my older technique.

Or....I honestly DO prefer a heavier whip....

Still reading and trying to learn more about it.

Thanks, guys!
High Regards!
Indydawg

[WhipDude]

Thanks, again, Whipdude!
Indydawg

Not a problem. Glad I can help a veteran COW member like you.

I think Daren also hit the nail on the head. Good comparison photos as well.

This is the wonderful thing about the whip world. Many different great offerings so you can find just about anything that suits your taste. It's a whip artistry in the sense that it's a high end craft. Each whip handler has their own preferences in using the whip and how they want the whip to "express" itself.

[rawvoodoo]

Of the 2 whips I have bought (both from "THAT" auction site) one is 8' and light while the other is 6' and weighs at least 1.5x's the longer whip. I much prefer the heavier whip. The 6' whip is of a better quality overall than the 8. It is 12 plait (very tight) while the 8' is 8 (not so tight) which makes a big difference in the weight. Also the 6' is shot loaded adding yet more weight.

I find the heavier whip much easier to crack plus it's much louder. Is that a function of the weight or is it just that my 8' is a lesser quality whip.

I am planning on getting a "real" whip from a top end maker before the end of the year. Specifically a Joe Strain 8'. After reading this thread though I hope it will not be too light for my tastes.

[Indydawg]

Well....I got the Strain out again this afternoon and worked with it for a good 30 minutes or so.....

I have to say....it's growing on me.

Now, don't get me wrong...I don't think it's "too" light....just lighter than my Stenhouse was...and, perhaps it takes some getting used to.

I am getting good standard cracks and good over the head cracks...

One thing I am, and always have, had trouble with is the "thrown" crack...going straight from behind the back out front...the kind you should use to do a wrap or something like that....I just can't seem to get it right. But, it certainly isn't the whip's fault....I've never been able to do it. My timing is just off....

At any rate...it is much easier to crack now and I do find myself now, after working a good bit, getting cracks out of it much easier.

So...maybe it's growing on me....but I do think I'll be getting a heavier one before too long....perhaps one of Bernardo's...he seems like a very reputable maker and, from my communications with him, is an extremely helpful person!

Thanks again, guys..for everything! This is fun!
Regards!
Indydawg

[Gaucho]

Guys


I see now the very beautifull pictures posted by Daren, and obviouslly, how amazing is your Indy whips colection...but I really see a detail in Morgan whip: the very short and dense handle, and a dense and strong thong just after the ring knot.

http://img832.imageshack.us/f/morganxwhips.jpg/


Doubt: It's really hard to make in a whip?? Because I only see this strengthened points in Morgan's whips.

Ps: Daren, permission to edit your pics here

Thanks to all.


Gaucho

[hollywood1340]

The loudness of crack has no bearing on the weight of the whip and when looking for a good whip I judge how quietly it cracks.

[rawvoodoo]

usually im in my back yard which is postage stamp sized. So I try and get it to just barely crack for my neighbors piece of mind . my 6' is very good at that while still being able to really boom with just a little more wrist action. while the 8 is kind of al or nothing. I also judge how good I am at a specific crack by how gently I can move the whip and still get a decent crack so less is better.

[Indiana County Jr.]

The loudness of crack has no bearing on the weight of the whip and when looking for a good whip I judge how quietly it cracks.

Agreed,
Just look at Anthony Delongis' whip video reel as he performs, he is not going for the "monster" crack. Technique comes heavily into play here, not weight, I have heard stockwhips that almost made me jump out of my skin when cracked. But then again, you don't really want to go for the loudest crack anyway, you are just straining and shortening the lifespan of the whip in the long run. Plus, consider the damage you may be doing to your shoulder(s), although this can happen with lighter whips as well, the last thing you want to do is cause an injury. I'm sure Daren will back me up on this when I say that playing with a heavy whip like the Indy IV will quickly make you want to move on to something else instead. Weight is not what it is all "cracked" up to be.....

Crack On!
Allen

[hollywood1340]

Got to try my first Strain hanging out with Louie Foxx. It wanted to crack itself and felt "right" in my hand. That's a good whip.

[Indydawg]

Going to work out with my JS again this afternoon...and I'm looking forward to feeling it "want to crack itself." Honestly, in the cracks I'm pretty good at-the standard forward crack and the over-the-head reversal cracks....it does do really well without me having to do anything except reverse directions.

Again....it's the "throw" that I'm having such a hard time nailing.

But...practice, practice, practice, right?

Regards!
Indydawg

[Noah]

Going to work out with my JS again this afternoon...and I'm looking forward to feeling it "want to crack itself." Honestly, in the cracks I'm pretty good at-the standard forward crack and the over-the-head reversal cracks....it does do really well without me having to do anything except reverse directions.

Again....it's the "throw" that I'm having such a hard time nailing.

But...practice, practice, practice, right?

Regards!
Indydawg

That's the best way to learn. Practice, practice, practice, and then some more practice. Not to mention practice. Just keep on practicing and you'll get it. You're gonna feel satisfied after.

[Kentucky Blues]

Actually, there's a bit more than practice. There's also looking at what you're doing, looking at what others are doing, and trying something new. Just as practice reinforces what you're doing right, it can also reinforce bad habits. The "throw" that you refer to, I believe, is the "flick." When I do it, I start with the whip in front of me, then pull it behind me before going overhead. THIS is the video that helped me with that one.

Also, if you can afford an amatuerishly made whip that will do most cracks despite being poorly made, buy one and practice with it. Afterwards, ANY well made whip will become easy to crack

-KB

[WhipDude]

Also, if you can afford an amatuerishly made whip that will do most cracks despite being poorly made, buy one and practice with it. Afterwards, ANY well made whip will become easy to crack

I assume that due to the smiley face, you are only joking about that statement. Right?

[Indydawg]

Yep, KB-that's the one! I have NOT been starting with the whip in front of me...so...I'll try that tomorrow!

Thanks!

Regards!
Indydawg

[thefish]

Also, if you can afford an amatuerishly made whip that will do most cracks despite being poorly made, buy one and practice with it. Afterwards, ANY well made whip will become easy to crack

I assume that due to the smiley face, you are only joking about that statement. Right?

I'm assuming that KB's joking as well, but I'll chime in with why I think so;

First and foremost, there is NOTHING further from the truth. Moving from a junk bullwhip to a well-made one really does nothing but make you MORE dangerous to yourself or others because you THINK you know what you're doing. Stick with me here...

If you're REALLY wanting to learn how to use a whip, get the best that you can afford; Cowhide or Nylon. Doesn't matter as long as it's made by a talented whip maker, ("Best" does not equal "Most Expensive" either...Read on.)

Cheap whips do nothing but frustrate new whip crackers. They don't roll out straight and they don't flow naturally, you end up overcompensating for the shortcomings of the whip, and can REALLY hurt yourself.

A buddy of mine had a whip that was NOT well made. Now, it LOOKED pretty: 8 foot long, 12 plait overlay, nice straight seams. It was picture perfect, and based on the pictures I saw of it before he bought it, I would have snagged one too for the price that he got it for.

The guts, however were just not up to snuff. It was too light, had no balance in the thong at all, and ultimately was impossible for him to control. While he was trying a very simple trick that he could easily do with one of my whips, it came around and cracked right against his forearm. It took a quarter sized chunk out of his arm that looked like he'd been shot. This guys is a blacksmith, and I've seen him mash his fingers with 12lb sledgehammers, lay his hands open to the bone with blades he was working on. He's got steel pins in both of his hands where he's broken them, and he's been stepped on by cantankerous horses while he was trying to shoe them. This guy has felt some pain in his days, and he ADMITTEDLY screamed like a little girl when it happened.

EVERYONE starts out overpowering the whip, and they end up getting tired, sore muscles at first, (doesn't matter if you're a power-lifter either. The whip uses muscles in different ways than they typically get used. It's actually a fairly good workout!) Add to that a whip that doesn't channel kinetic energy efficiently, and you have to put THAT much more into it. That can lead to muscle strain, and repetitive motion injury if you PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE with it.

Plus, when you get a GOOD whip after using a cheap one and you try to muscle it like you do your old whip, you can damage it or yourself, (I've seen folks who are used to junky swivel-handle whips they had to pull back on to crack stripe themselves across the face when they tried the same technique with a well-made bullwhip.)

A well-made whip will make learning go much faster, and much more smoothly. Your likelyhood of success in trying new things is better, and success is a great motivator in learning. Plus, if you stick with it, and you upgrade to a newer, "nicer" whip, you'll still have a very good, functional whip that you can STILL enjoy working with.

That's not to say that "junk" whips don't have their place. I've seen a buddy of mine who's been cracking whips for 30+ years use a 20 foot swivel handle bullwhip that he picked up at a flea market for $40 to snuff candles. But that was after 20+ years as a professional who works day-to-day with Strains, Nolans, and Fraser stockwhips. And if you've ever seen the "Whip," (and I use that term loosely,) that Adam Winrich made to set the "Longest Bullwhip Cracked" world record...well...Yeah. I've helped him carry it. It's junk. Can he use it? Yeah, but MAN!

As I said, there are some GREAT quality items out there for getting started on a budget. If you want an Indy-looking whip for costuming and some cracking, pick up a Todd's Costume whip, (and condition the heck out of it!) If you want a great whip to learn the basics on and have as a very functional and very accurate "backup" or "loner" whip for the rest of your whip cracking career, snag one of Steve "Jabbahutt" Huntress's "Catalyst" bullwhips. You're not going to easily find a finer crafted whip for $75!

Go with anything less than that, and you might very well pay for it with wasted time, and cuts and bruises.

Just my two cents!

All the best, and happy cracking!

-Dan

[Kentucky Blues]

I'll admit, I was mostly kidding. But I do have an amateur whip that has helped me. It's not terribly made, it's not like it can't handle actually cracking, it's just very loose, and not the greatest balance. It was made with serious effort by someone who went on to make better whips. But I also have a professional nylon whip (my amateur whip was nylon as well) that does everything it's supposed to, and I'm always happy to use it after trying out the other one. And I wasn't completely clueless either, I had the professional whip longer and had learned a few things with it. Also, I was taking into consideration that IndyDawg also has SOME experience, not suggesting that he learn from scratch. And again, it was said in good humor (emphasis on humor )

-KB

[thefish]

I figured, considering the context that it was a a couple of our more seasoned members discussing Indygear, (and lets face it, while Dawg might be more a more inexperienced than many of the folks on this forum, he's been around the Indygear crowd, and no matter if your real area of interest is hats, jackets, guns, or boots, you've had SOME experience talking to folks about whips, and have probably cracked a couple.) What I didn't want to happen is for a newcomer to pop on, and read this thread completely out of context. It's happened before.

So, that's where I was coming from. MY post wasn't aimed at you guys. It was just a "Seriously...Good doesn't mean expensive. If you're learning, use good stuff!" clarification.

That's all.

I hadn't chimed in before because Whip Dude had already posted links to older threads in which I'd already given my take on heavy vs. light, and agreed with the comments that Darren, Whip Dude, and others had already made.

All the best, guys!

Happy Crackin!

-Dan

[Marhala]

Putting aside the weight of the thong, the length of the handle and how it was loaded, the length and weight of both fall and cracker can affect deeply the performance of a good whip. Very long and light, it will require much more force to crack and you may even lose long chunks of fall because of it. Very short, and thus"heavier", may make a louder crack.

There was some point when I was making falls for a whip I use regularly, just because I wanted it to be a certain length. And the whip didn't perform as it did before. But as someone said at the APWA site, the whip "chooses" the length of the fall and cracker. That is, the whip, as it is from the butt to the fall hitch, was designed to be used with a fall and cracker of a certain length and weight, in a range within reason.

Just a thought,

Aldo.

[pmgilmer]

In the context of "Indy/Morgan" style whips, I think they preforms much better with the heavier (but not too heavy) thicker/denser thongs in the beginning feet. This allows the whip to crack much easier and with less effort as it creates a type of flexible lever that is properly counter weighted by the butt of the handle. Jacka's method of doing this is lots of binding in the first feet of the thong for leverage, but you'll notice you forearm muscle have to work much harder because of the strain on the wrist. My opinion is that Daivd's "formula" is the best for his style whips, and that the other methods are better left to "non-Morgan" style whips. The Golden DM that Bernardo just made for me is the perfect example of what I consider the ideally constructed "Morgan". It is a real joy to use because every element of it's construction had the goal of function first and form second. I feel that taking a different method of whip making and trying to make it look like a Morgan is like taking a Porsche engine and trying to make it fit into a Lamborghini. Sure, you can make it work, look nice on the outside, and probably not be terrible on the track... but it's still backwards in it's philosophy, and defiantly not as good as just letting them stand alone as 2 rockin' awesome sports car styles built from the ground up with separate strengths (or functions) dictating it's form, and not vis-vera. What you need to find out is which great "ride" it your personal favorite, and that may evolve with time and practice, but at the end of the day that is where the truth of the matter lies.

[Hollowpond]

In the context of "Indy/Morgan" style whips, I think they preforms much better with the heavier (but not too heavy) thicker/denser thongs in the beginning feet. This allows the whip to crack much easier and with less effort as it creates a type of flexible lever that is properly counter weighted by the butt of the handle. Jacka's method of doing this is lots of binding in the first feet of the thong for leverage, but you'll notice you forearm muscle have to work much harder because of the strain on the wrist. My opinion is that Daivd's "formula" is the best for his style whips, and that the other methods are better left to "non-Morgan" style whips. The Golden DM that Bernardo just made for me is the perfect example of what I consider the ideally constructed "Morgan". It is a real joy to use because every element of it's construction had the goal of function first and form second. I feel that taking a different method of whip making and trying to make it look like a Morgan is like taking a Porsche engine and trying to make it fit into a Lamborghini. Sure, you can make it work, look nice on the outside, and probably not be terrible on the track... but it's still backwards in it's philosophy, and defiantly not as good as just letting them stand alone as 2 rockin' awesome sports car styles built from the ground up with separate strengths (or functions) dictating it's form, and not vis-vera. What you need to find out is which great "ride" it your personal favorite, and that may evolve with time and practice, but at the end of the day that is where the truth of the matter lies.

Well said!!!

Travis

[hollywood1340]

Agreed! I told David the same last time I was there. He got it right. For what the whip was designed for I can't think of a better whip.

[Indiana County Jr.]

The DM whip is the very "heart and soul" of why this section exists!