Original Jacket is my design and make.

[PETER]

I have watched with some amusement at certain US citizens attempting to make the original 'Hero' jacket
a product of USA but I must tell you it was designed and made in England.
Who is or what is Neil Cooper, i do not know, he certainly had nothing to do with the jacket I produced.

Chronology:
George Lucas & Steven Spielberg contracted Burmans & Nathans Costumiers to outfit Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. Noel Howard, who was the Joint Managing Director, was given this task. In doing so he had the jackets, shirts, pants, belts, and shoulder bags made. The jacket was sub-contracted to Peter Botwright of Leather Concessionaires.

Here is a quote from Noel regarding production...
"I got together lots or samples of leather jackets from our rental stock at Bermans ready for the first fitting of HF (Harrison Ford). Also, as I had worked with Peter on several productions previously, I asked him to let me have some sample jackets and leathers for the fitting. At the fitting we chose several design features from the various jackets tried on and I then asked Peter to make up a fitting jacket incorporating these features. At the next fitting we tried on this jacket and made some more modifications and then Peter made up another sample and so on until everybody was happy with the look and leather texture. As far as my memory goes, we made between 10-15 of the outfits for each movie, and usually more shirts, to cover the requirements for stunt doubles, etc.

That is the truth but with one very relevant and important feature feature. I was told at the time that they had had some sample jackets made in the USA but the thickness of the leather they was using and the styling made it impossible to access the whip and gun as the waistband was solid.
I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

It worked and became the production jacket. To my knowledge NO ONE and no other jacket design has this feature either before or since
and is and was unique to me and my production. As simple as that with no conspiracy theory.
Regards to all
Peter

[Mike]

Peter, glad to see you back.

Now an "official" warning for members, lets not get this one off to a flame war. Keep it nice…no warnings.

Back to the topic at hand…

Peter "we've" never claimed, from the site's perspective, that you did not have a hand at making jackets for Raiders. We've been trying to put the pieces together with the new information gleamed to get a proper timeline of events. You even state that there were other makers in the mix. We're just trying to get to who's was where on screen. I think there's plenty of room for all who were involved, and can see where more than one can claim they made a jacket for the movie and have more of a claim than the fracas that erupted over the Crystal Skull hats.

Though _'s post about leather in the Raiders jacket is new as of last night, other individuals have now confirmed Cooper's involvement with the movie.

It would be great if we could keep this even keel and nail down the who's, where's, and what's. After all the most factual information is all that we strive for.

Regards,

Mike

[PETER]

Other people were involved and made samples which were all rejected on styling and skin type I know that.
The unique part is the full length action pleat, a major feature of the jacket, made by me so any other jacket made would have to have this feature which cannot be pre dated.

[PETER]

I dont know what involvement Cooper had but when I got involved we started with a clean sheet
and worked forward, I was only told what they did not like on other samples made not what they liked.

[whipwarrior]

I LOVE MY WESTED!!!

Just thought I'd throw that in, for the record.

[Indiana Jeff]

Peter,

Given what you have stated above, why the changes in the jacket specs from what we see on screen and what customers have received? Specifically, I have a Raider's jacket circa spring of 2000 with the side straps attached as part of the action pleat seam, whereas on screen the straps are attached to the back panel using box stitching.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Mike]

Again, lets not make this into a gripe session or flame war. Keep replies to topic.

Peter, from my understanding of the timeline, Cooper would've been either after your involvement or coincided with your involvement. I'll have to look back through to refresh my memory.

[IndianaChris711]

Hey Peter,

I still have my two Wested's and I wear one of them pretty much every day during the week. I do not disagree that you provided jackets for the film. However, _ had a thread going on here that had some great information from conversations with Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, and others that were key in making Raiders. There was a lot of pressure on the costume designer after she ordered some bad jackets in the U.S. and Steven Spielberg was not a happy camper. Therefore I believe that Steven Spielberg was overlooking the jacket extremely closely as it was one of the main costumes pieces. I think we are just trying to figure out like Mike said who's jacket was on screen at what point. And who was all involved, maybe Steven Spielberg asked Neil Cooper to make a jacket and you did not know about it. I am just saying there are other variables in this that need to be considered. I do appreciate all you do for the fans by pricing your jackets at a very affordable price, but people are wanting the truth (including myself) on a film we love so much. That is all we are really asking.

IndianaChris

[maboot38]

Peter, I'll Echo IndianaChris's statment. I wear my beautiful Wested lamb just about every day, and love it. Most of us don't have any agenda other than to find out all the facts. Some facts have come to light recently based on conversations with those directly involved in the movie production, and some have found those statements to be disharmonious with belief about your level of involvement.

I wasn't there and therefore can't claim a position one way or another. All I see are a handful of conflicting sources and I'd like to see all of these impasses explained away.

[Indiana Jeff]

Sorry, Mike, I wasn't trying to flame nor wander off topic. I still have my Wested after 10 years and like it, both as a quality garment for daily use and for the provenance of being connected to ROLA. The reason for asking about the changes/differences in the straps is based on Peter's statement:

I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

It worked and became the production jacket. To my knowledge NO ONE and no other jacket design has this feature either before or since
and is and was unique to me and my production. As simple as that with no conspiracy theory.
Regards to all
Peter

and the statement on the Wested site of

Each jacket is certified as an authentic replica of the Original Film Version. Every Jacket is supplied with a Certificate of Authenticity

yet there are jackets, mine being an example, where the side strap design is different from what is seen on screen as well as what is currently being offered by Wested.

Again, not trying to poke the hornet's nest and if it is deemed too off topic the Admins can delete both of my posts.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[crismans]

Hopefully, this isn't construed as a flame post as it's not. It's just a statement of fact. The fact is that the questions posed in this thread by Indiana Jeff have been posed many times before. In fact, Yojimbo Jones posted something of an "open letter" thread to Peter asking these very questions (differences in Wested offerings from what we see on screen despite assertions of design and "original patterns").

To date, I have never seen these questions addressed. Since these questions seem to be a major stumbling block in some people believing your interpretation of events, Peter, maybe this would be a good time to address them and clear these things up?

[crismans]

the way I understand the sequence of events, Neil Cooper was with SS and crew in France on the first days of shooting and made a jacket per SS's request that recently has been called a hero jacket. At roughly the same time Peter was in London working via Noel to make jackets, one of which may have also been used by HF as a hero jacket. Those that study the screen grabs have consistently stated there was more than one jacket worn by HF throughout the movie. I think that is where the disconnect may be.

This is my interpretation as well. And this story could take into the differing accounts of events except, as maboot38 notes, one problem. Peter's claim that he solely designed the Indy jacket. If you go with the scenario that Cooper and Peter based their designs independently on the Western Costumes mock-up, then the story seems to be coherent. I see that as being the most likely scenario at this point.

And just to clarify for my own memory, didn't the WC mock-up already have the action pleats?

[Texan Scott]

"Test fittings done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck, the actor first cast as Indy, made it clear there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. The jacket would get caught on the gun belt and bullwhip. Additionally, the leather used did not artificially age well and the finish would flake off. Western Costumes interceded and provided a full mock-up jacket in a denim-like cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues. While it has been reported that Western Costumes provided finished leather jackets, this is not quite accurate. The only complete jacket made to Nadoolman’s specifications was the cloth jacket, which was in fact used in one Raiders sequence where Ford is being chased downhill by the Hovitos. This jacket was used “on the spur of the moment” because the Fuller's Earth adhered to its surface better than its leather compatriots."

[Mike]

As the title of the thread states "is my design" I'll allow for now. But tread lightly all.

[DR Ulloa]

Indy wore a jacket?

Dave

[Texan Scott]

It was leather, just like his hat. AND don't forget the hat pin...

[crismans]

Thanks Texan! That was what I thought I'd read. My question really belongs in the thread that Peter started rather than here, so I apologize to _ for sidetracking this one a little.

[binkmeisterRick]

While the levity is appreciated, let's stay on topic, folks.

[DR Ulloa]

Just trying to lighten the mood is all, but point taken.

I believe that both Cooper and Botwright had a great deal to do with making this jacket. The debate, if I understand this correctly, is who made the one that Ford wore the longest on screen? Well, hasn't Peter stated that he did not use striated lamb? It's easy to see which has striations. Can't we just deduce that the hero jacket with striations is the Cooper and the one without is the Wested?

Dave

[Indydawg]

Quote:
the way I understand the sequence of events, Neil Cooper was with SS and crew in France on the first days of shooting and made a jacket per SS's request that recently has been called a hero jacket. At roughly the same time Peter was in London working via Noel to make jackets, one of which may have also been used by HF as a hero jacket. Those that study the screen grabs have consistently stated there was more than one jacket worn by HF throughout the movie. I think that is where the disconnect may be.


This is my interpretation as well. And this story could take into the differing accounts of events except, as maboot38 notes, one problem. Peter's claim that he solely designed the Indy jacket. If you go that Cooper and Peter based their designs independently on the Western Costumes mock-up, then the story seems to be coherent and I see that as being the most likely scenario at this point.

And just to clarify for my own memory, didn't the WC mock-up already have the action pleats?

Ok...I'll throw in here, crisman, as not only do we understand the sequence of events in the same way, but it is also my understanding that all parties were, in fact, working off the WC mock-up which had, to MY understanding, already been approved by SS, GL, and HF....

In this manner, it would certainly have been possible for BOTH Neil Cooper AND Peter to have designed a jacket independently of each other, and without knowledge OF others' efforts. It's further conceivable that Peter continued to operate under the assumption that his jackets were THE jackets used in the film when, in fact, it's not necessarily TRUE that they were, since a great deal of evidence suggests that the major parties concerned preferred the Cooper jacket design....for whatever reason.

Does that make sense?
Regards.
Indydawg

Edit: I also apologize to _ for these two responses taking this off rail a bit...can we agree to copy it to the other thread that Peter started?

[binkmeisterRick]

Just trying to lighten the mood is all, but point taken.

Thanks. We just don't want things to get too out of hand in potentially volatile threads. And as an added note, we've already handed out one suspension for a comment made after Mike's original warning, so we're taking things seriously here. Carry on, folks.

[DR Ulloa]

Just trying to lighten the mood is all, but point taken.

Thanks. We just don't want things to get too out of hand in potentially volatile threads. And as an added note, we've already handed out one suspension for a comment made after Mike's original warning, so we're taking things seriously here. Carry on, folks.

I understand. Thats partly why I stay out of the jacket section most of the time. But I have been trying to keep up with these debates. Is it entirely possible that both Neil and Peter worked on jackets independently of each other and without knowing anything of the other's involvement? This might be the reason why both Neil and Peter defend their stances with such ferver.

Dave

[Texan Scott]

Maybe I look at if from a different angle, but it appears that both the Cooper and the LC were the 'hero' jackets because both appeared on the 'hero' and on screen. From that perspective, the WC mock up could be considered a hero jacket, though it appeared just briefly. Some may wish to debate how long one appeared on screen vs. another, but I don't see one as having more providence or bearing on the other, they apparently both appeared in the movie.

[maboot38]

Can't we just deduce that the hero jacket with striations is the Cooper and the one without is the Wested?
Dave

I would say NO, we cannot deduce this. Especially when the people who say they made the jackets are able to answer. Also, just because it may appear to be the case, doesn't make it so.

[Texan Scott]

Striations indicate lamb do they not? Also, in _'s thread, Cooper says that they went with a lighter leather, "pulled calf", so this would indicate that the Cooper was essentially calf/cow hide.

[RCSignals]

excerpt from a Deborah Nadoolman Interview

Because 1941 (which I designed) was a financial disappointment, Lucas came on as producer of Raiders as a favor to Steven. We were working on a "B picture" with a B budget, but all the people were the "A" team. I needed a decent budget to accommodate the many stunt people, stand in's, additional units, and dummies (stuffed). But the unit production manager was ruthless. It was not pretty. I had budgeted for 10 jackets and to save money I ordered them from the very reasonably priced Wilson’s House of Suede and Leather in Los Angeles who custom made them for me based on a prototype I made at Western Costume Company. This is before any of us ever went to London to begin pre production at EMI Elstree Studios.
When the jackets arrived from Wilson’s I understood they would be unusable for the film. As I tried to age the first one, the leather peeled away in my hands, immediately the color of the leather came off, and giant holes appeared. I discussed this with Steven, George and Harrison. And it was Harrison who became my ally and advocate. I simply could not use these low grade jackets – it would be impossible to wear them in stunt situations and they would never look right. Finally, after much fighting about money – which was ridiculous given that the jackets were the centerpiece of the film – and after watching Heston and Ladd sporting them on the big screen – finally I was given the OK to design and make another set of 10 at Berman’s and Nathan’s Costumier’s once we arrived in London. These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

[DR Ulloa]

Can't we just deduce that the hero jacket with striations is the Cooper and the one without is the Wested?
Dave

I would say NO, we cannot deduce this. Especially when the people who say they made the jackets are able to answer. Also, just because it may appear to be the case, doesn't make it so.

True. And IF Cooper and Botwright worked independently of each other, wouldn't that mean that there may be nuance differences in each jacket? They clearly had the Western Costumes mock up to go on after, but there would be differences if they didn't make that pattern themselves. So, wouldn't Peter be able to tell his jacket from one he didn't make? Neil would be able to do the same, wouldn't he?

Dave

[Kt Templar]

The 'striations' were identified as a trait in a breed of sheep. Specifically merinos and their 'ribby character' genetic trait. So if you were to pinpoint a particular jacket as being Peter's it would be the one in front of the flying wing, he has always maintained that his jackets were lamb (or older to get the size needed).

[DR Ulloa]

excerpt from a Deborah Nadoolman Interview

Because 1941 (which I designed) was a financial disappointment, Lucas came on as producer of Raiders as a favor to Steven. We were working on a "B picture" with a B budget, but all the people were the "A" team. I needed a decent budget to accommodate the many stunt people, stand in's, additional units, and dummies (stuffed). But the unit production manager was ruthless. It was not pretty. I had budgeted for 10 jackets and to save money I ordered them from the very reasonably priced Wilson’s House of Suede and Leather in Los Angeles who custom made them for me based on a prototype I made at Western Costume Company. This is before any of us ever went to London to begin pre production at EMI Elstree Studios.
When the jackets arrived from Wilson’s I understood they would be unusable for the film. As I tried to age the first one, the leather peeled away in my hands, immediately the color of the leather came off, and giant holes appeared. I discussed this with Steven, George and Harrison. And it was Harrison who became my ally and advocate. I simply could not use these low grade jackets – it would be impossible to wear them in stunt situations and they would never look right. Finally, after much fighting about money – which was ridiculous given that the jackets were the centerpiece of the film – and after watching Heston and Ladd sporting them on the big screen – finally I was given the OK to design and make another set of 10 at Berman’s and Nathan’s Costumier’s once we arrived in London. These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

If we are to believe Landis, then what really does it matter about the pattern? It wasn't designed by either LC or Cooper so who really cares? What matters is what jackets were worn on screen, right? And as far as we all know, they both were and both on Ford.

Dave

[Gater]

Perhaps we are answering our own question, somewhat. There are those who question design details on the film jacket that are not present on Wested Jackets received by customers.

Perhaps some of the details not included or that are different on Wested jackets that were seen on screen are because the jacket used in that particular scene isn't a LC made jacket, but a Cooper?

Peter is stating that the design is of his doing, but there is also evidence that Neil also made screen-used jackets. Steven would have had total control over the design, and say what stayed or what needed to be changed etc. Peter says himself in this thread that there were design features suggested, and he implimented them to create the final design, but what if after the design was created, those features were used to create the NC version, with some slight variances that nobody would pick up on for over 25+ years?

Up until recently, we all believed that Wested were the only jackets used for the film, but if other jackets made by someone else were used, it could explain design variances in customer recived jackets, right? Just putting out a possible scenario.

EDIT - Dr Ulloa types faster that I do, but we make the same point

[crismans]

The debate, if I understand this correctly, is who made the one that Ford wore the longest on screen? Well, hasn't Peter stated that he did not use striated lamb? It's easy to see which has striations. Can't we just deduce that the hero jacket with striations is the Cooper and the one without is the Wested?

I'm not sure that is the core debate at the heart of this thread. The debate, as I understand it, is that Peter is claiming to be solely responsible for the finished jacket we see on screen. It has come up over the last few months (and Mike says has been verified independently) that Cooper also had a major hand in at least one jacket. According to _ (if I'm not misquoting here), both Cooper and Peter based their jackets off the WC jacket. So, it's the "debate" is not which jacket was on screen more (yet! ) or even made what jacket (although there's been some exploration on that in other threads) but who made the jackets, period.

If we are to believe Landis, then what really does it matter about the pattern? It wasn't designed by either LC or Cooper so who really cares? What matters is what jackets were worn on screen, right? And as far as we all know, they both were and both on Ford.

And I promise I'm not picking on you, Dave. But a vendor is claiming that the pattern is his sole design and that, to his knowledge, no one else had any input on the jacket (he started with a clean slate). So the actual history of the jacket and how it came into being is what we're trying to get at here.

[DR Ulloa]

The debate, if I understand this correctly, is who made the one that Ford wore the longest on screen? Well, hasn't Peter stated that he did not use striated lamb? It's easy to see which has striations. Can't we just deduce that the hero jacket with striations is the Cooper and the one without is the Wested?

I'm not sure that is the core debate at the heart of this thread. The debate, as I understand it, is that Peter is claiming to be solely responsible for the finished jacket we see on screen. It has come up over the last few months (and Mike says has been verified independently) that Cooper also had a major hand in at least one jacket. According to _ (if I'm not misquoting here), both Cooper and Peter based their jackets off the WC jacket. So, it's the "debate" is not which jacket was on screen more (yet! ) or even made what jacket (although there's been some exploration on that in other threads) but who made the jackets, period.

I see. Thanks for bringing me up to speed.

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Wait, rereading this thread now, so who designed the action pleat and straps? I thought that was Western Costume. Or was it Peter, as he stated in his first post?

Dave

[crismans]

Wait, rereading this thread now, so who designed the action pleat and straps? I thought that was Western Costume. Or was it Peter, as he stated in his first post?

Dave

Now you begin to understand...

[Chewbacca Jones]

Well, some of the confirmed information I have read (and seems to have vanished, probably because too many people can't obey the mods), it seemed to me that the designs and features were settled on before the preferred hero jacket was made. So, I agree with Gater. Design and Product are likely to be two different "arguments," and thus account for variations in the execution of design features.

In short, both Peter and Neil could be completely truthful and correct.

[DR Ulloa]

Well, some of the confirmed information I have read (and seems to have vanished, probably because too many people can't obey the mods), it seemed to me that the designs and features were settled on before the preferred hero jacket was made. So, I agree with Gater. Design and Product are likely to be two different "arguments," and thus account for variations in the execution of design features.

In short, both Peter and Neil could be completely truthful and correct.

This is what I was getting at. It is very probable that no one told either that someone else was making jackets too. That would lead them to believe they made ALL the jackets for the film. But I'm starting to see some inconsistencies in stories just being here for a few minutes...

Dave

[RCSignals]

Wait, rereading this thread now, so who designed the action pleat and straps? I thought that was Western Costume. Or was it Peter, as he stated in his first post?

Dave

Again from the Debora Nadoolman interview above

These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

[DR Ulloa]

That is what made me go back and reread Peter's initial post. My question is how were both Peter AND Neil able to make near identical jackets without one or both having a referrence to work off of? Do we know when Neil and Peter worked on jackets, respectively?

Dave

[Texan Scott]

The debate, as I understand it, is that Peter is claiming to be solely responsible for the finished jacket we see on screen. It has come up over the last few months (and Mike says has been verified independently) that Cooper also had a major hand in at least one jacket. According to _ (if I'm not misquoting here), both Cooper and Peter based their jackets off the WC jacket. So, it's the "debate" is not which jacket was on screen more (yet! ) or even made what jacket (although there's been some exploration on that in other threads) but who made the jackets, period.

If we are to believe Landis, then what really does it matter about the pattern? It wasn't designed by either LC or Cooper so who really cares? What matters is what jackets were worn on screen, right? And as far as we all know, they both were and both on Ford.

And I promise I'm not picking on you, Dave. But a vendor is claiming that the pattern is his sole design and that, to his knowledge, no one else had any input on the jacket (he started with a clean slate). So the actual history of the jacket and how it came into being is what we're trying to get at here.

From his perspective, his point of view in the sequence of events he could very well state he was the one and only. I could see where he would state such as the case. But new evidence indicates otherwise. He saw the tree, but not the forest, apparently.

[BendingOak]

Sounds like DL designed the jacket and both gentlemen produced it from what she gave them. Going by the above statement.

[DR Ulloa]

The debate, as I understand it, is that Peter is claiming to be solely responsible for the finished jacket we see on screen. It has come up over the last few months (and Mike says has been verified independently) that Cooper also had a major hand in at least one jacket. According to _ (if I'm not misquoting here), both Cooper and Peter based their jackets off the WC jacket. So, it's the "debate" is not which jacket was on screen more (yet! ) or even made what jacket (although there's been some exploration on that in other threads) but who made the jackets, period.

If we are to believe Landis, then what really does it matter about the pattern? It wasn't designed by either LC or Cooper so who really cares? What matters is what jackets were worn on screen, right? And as far as we all know, they both were and both on Ford.

And I promise I'm not picking on you, Dave. But a vendor is claiming that the pattern is his sole design and that, to his knowledge, no one else had any input on the jacket (he started with a clean slate). So the actual history of the jacket and how it came into being is what we're trying to get at here.

From his perspective, his point of view in the sequence of events he could very well state he was the one and only. I could see where he would state such as the case. But new evidence indicates otherwise. He saw the tree, but not the forest, apparently.

Not quite, TS. Either this jacket was complete designed by him or it wasn't. There is no grey area here. Either he had nothing to work off of or he did. There is definately a hiccup here. Did Peter work off of the WC mock up or did he do this entirely on his own? If he did, then it is puzzlingly close to the WC mock up, which was apparently used in the Hovitos chase scene and we know had very specific design details.

Dave

[Texan Scott]

It wasn't entirely his design and his alone becuase he was given direction. One was presented then they honed it down.

[RCSignals]

From Agent 5's interview with Deborah Nadoolman/Landis

So, with Harrison we did a little choreography and it was just myself and the tailor and Harrison in the fitting room and we did choreography. You know...how are you going to get to your holster? How are you going to use the whip? How are you going to work the whip? And he was stretching his arms out and doing a full rotation with his arms and, 'Is this enough? Is this enough room in the back? Is this going to work? Should I make it a two inch...do you want more of an action back?' And I had seen some of these action backs in motorcycle jackets. Not in flight jackets but in motorcycle jackets of the period and of course, before I designed this jacket I looked at a million different kinds of jackets. I mean, John's stepfather was in the Army Air Corp and has a flight jacket. He had a (fleece?) lined flight jacket. I looked at that. I looked at where they were aged. And so I knew I wanted (inaudible*) at the waist...why?...because I wanted him to be very slim through the waist and I want to be able to tighten up those (inaudible*) so that he would have broad shoulders and a slim waist and that he had all the room he needed but that we could close it up as well and give him a slim silhouette too.

what is noted as (inaudible*) one can easily assume should be 'straps'

[Texan Scott]

She brought the wilson's jackets and the WC mock-up to England with her. It pre-dated both the Cooper and the LC. Remember, they were working on the design problems before they left the US. Otherwise, the A-2 likenesses would have worked and that would have been all of it.

[maboot38]

We have two direct quotes:

I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

AND

These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

They are not compatable. I think that is one of the things we are trying to get to the bottom of here.

I hate to sound like Woodward and Bernstein here....I just plainly see the discord and would like to clear it up.

[Texan Scott]

The WC mock-up was the first woking copy of a hero jacket, made before anyone left.

[RCSignals]

It wasn't entirely his design and his alone becuase he was given direction. One was presented then they honed it down.

The problem with that is what Peter has said.

It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

There is no mention of simply reproducing a jacket from an already existing mock up.

The Western Costumes cloth mock up has been identified here in other discussions, and in Nadoolman/Landis interviews, as the design of the jacket. What the final jacket duplicated.

If both Peter and Cooper worked from that single design and pattern they could have produced independently, jackets that were in essence identical.
That however is not what Peter is saying.

There is really only one 'different' jacket in the movie as far as pattern details go, the Bantu Wind dockside scene jacket. That jacket does still have action back and side straps. Who's is it?

[RCSignals]

We have two direct quotes:

I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

AND

These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

They are not compatable. I think that is one of the things we are trying to get to the bottom of here.

I hate to sound like Woodward and Bernstein here....I just plainly see the discord and would like to clear it up.

Yes, that is what I think most of us would like

[Texan Scott]

Then again, he claims 'intellectual rights' to the jacket and claims to have the original patterns. If you have original patterns, how could you produce a 'bellhop' jacket? Even the worst memory can be righted if you have patterns.

[crismans]

It wasn't entirely his design and his alone becuase he was given direction. One was presented then they honed it down.

Except this is not what Peter is saying.

I distinctly remember saying what if I can design it so the we have an action pleat that goes to the bottom of the jacket and have action pleats to give easy access. It was agreed that might work so I went back and using the basic bock of a james dean jacket and certain features of an A2 and others I designed a jacket with a full length action pleat ending in a vent only held in place by side straps.

It worked and became the production jacket. To my knowledge NO ONE and no other jacket design has this feature either before or since
and is and was unique to me and my production.

Like RC said (he posted before I could), Peter is not saying that he took the WC mock-up and based his jacket on it. He is saying he basically designed the jacket from scratch.